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Super Smash Bros. revision

I have seen plenty of profiles that use bad endings as evidence. Though the two profiles that I was going to use as examples got upgraded for different reasons so I’ll need to search for another example. However I know for a fact we use bad endings for evidence and Galeem absolutely destroys everyone with zero difficulty. If the creators wanted the characters to scale they wouldn’t have Galeem so causally just obliterate literally every character combined.

Also the only reason the characters could have won in the good ending is completely shoot in the foot during that very same ending. The fighters have spirits but Galeem has thousands to millions more of them. Galeem also one shot the fighters and spirits at the beginning of the game so combining them should do literally nothing because Galeem was already stronger than both groups.
 
“Because everyone he killed at the start weren't amplified, not the playable fighters, nor the soon to be spirits. When actually amped, they stood a chance. You're using non-amped vs amped.”

The spirits are the amp to the fighters and Galeem one shot both of them at once. Adding something that gets completely curpstomped to something that got stomped doesn’t help if both were stomped by the same attack.

“nothing proved the spirits amped Galeem, because he's equal to Dharkon who has none?”

The spirits amp literally anyone else who has them so their isn’t a reason to assume they suddenly don’t work with Galeem. Dharkon has spirits he has the dark spirits and when you defeat either the light or dark spirits on the final area of the game the power constantly shifts between Galeem and Dharkon.
 
About the spirits, Galeem doesn't use them to amp his own power. We see in the first cutscene that he uses them to animate the statues of the cloned fighters. Nothing implies or shows that Galeem uses the spirits for himself. I'd say that it's likely that the fighters released every single spirit even if you don't fight them in the story mode, it would have been impossible to put every single spirit inside the same game mode, leaving the rest of the modes empty.
The same can be said of the DLc fighters and spirits, you don't meet them in the story, but they just authomatically fit in as if they were there since the beginning.
 
The spirits I’m referring to when it comes to Galeem couldn’t be freed before the fighters got to him because they are shown leaving Galeem (or the ocean Galeem’s corpse fell into) at the very end of the game. Galeem and Dharkon are also shown to gain an advantage over each other when one losses spirits so they have to be using them to amp themselves as well.
 
The spirits are freed because Galeem and Dharkon's control over the planet ceases to be, we also see it coming back to normal after that it was modified by their power.
The advantage is given by the fact that both Galeem and Dharkon still have clones of the Hands and the fighters, until they get defeated by the fighters and by the real Master Hand. At that moment, Galeem and Dharkon are alone (with the exception of some clone that spawns when you climb the stage), so no one holds an advantage over the other.
I still remain of the idea that Galeem and Dharkon are way above every fighter, with or without spirits, but they are defeated because they clash each other while all the fighters combined defeat them once and for all.
The fact that during the story mode you fight Galeem first (after breaking his barrier), who flees after the fight, then Dharkon and at the end both, makes me believe that they can't unleash their super attack whenever they want.
Otherwise, why would Galeem set up a barrier? Why would he let less than half of the roster defeat him when he could just kill them again? The same for Dharkon.
I believe that both need to gather energy (like absorbing the hands) or build it up, wait for a sort of cooldown or I don't know what else, but they can't just repeat the same attack again and again.
 
Dharkon’s ‘super attack’ is both done by him standing there, and is somewhat shown when he first showed up. Galeem is shown to start and finish charging up the attack that kills everyone and it took him at worst 3 seconds, for the rest of the time he was busy fighting with Dharkon or didn’t have an opponent since the only person left was Kirby and Kirby just barely survived Galeem’s first attack.

Galeem’s charged up attack is also the same as his first non charged up attack, this time it just has the AoE of the ending of his first attack (remember how in the opening the light started as tendrils before becoming a large flash of light, Galeem’s final attack is just his first one with the larger AoE).

You are not defeating clones in the final mission (though you can free a few of the fighters). You are fighting Dharkon and Galeem’s light and dark spirits. When you defeat a certain amount of either the power shifts to either Dharkon or Galeem depending on which type of spirit you defeated.
 
I didn't mean that they need to actively charge it, I wanted to say that they aren't shown to always use it.
Galeem use it once and then had to set up a barrier and eventually gets defeated. Then Dharkon comes, and gets defeated too. After that they spread light or dark only after their rival is killed by the fighters at the very end of the game, leaving open field to the other, which still has his army, as seen by the Hands floating around the survivor.
If they were able to use their respective oneshot attack at any moment, the fighters would have been immediately killed the moment they stepped in to fight Galeem in the first half of the game.
And the same with Dharkon, why he gets defeated if he could have just oneshot everyone?
With the final mission I mean just before you fight both of them, when you climb up the stage and some clones pop out and you have to defeat them before going on.
The power shift is given by the fact that one of them gains advantage over the other every time you free a spirit, a fighter or destroy a Hand, but when you clear all the board no one has the advantage because the fighters have defeated Galeem and Dharkon's army.
 
Galeem is shown using his lasers whenever he fights Dharkon and those laser are the instant kill move that kill the fighters. Which is why I said earlier the fighters winning is massive plot convenience. Dharkon doesn’t even have a special attack, he’s constant shown using the same thing to attack Galeem as he does the fighters and Dharkon in the ending just instant kills them.

You don’t defeat MHs with the spirits. The spirits are there own entities. You can fight a MH in the final mission but you aren’t constantly destroying MHs your freeing the light and dark spirits. (By the way I still think defeating MH is an outlier and our current profile states this “Master Hand seems to often hold back the full extent of its power” that has to come from somewhere I just haven’t found where yet.)
 
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I'm assuming that Dharkon has a comparable attack, like in his ending when he covers the world in darkness.
For the rest, I meant that in the final board you fight clones of the fighters and clones of the Hands, the spirits are released every time a clone is defeated.
Hands, clones and unlreleased fighters make the army of Galeem and Dharkon, which take advantage over the other every time one of them loses "pawns".
The fighters winning would be plot convenience for three times, since Galeem and Dharkon are defeated two times each in the whole game.
I find more likely to assume that they can't spam their AoE oneshotting attack, instead of believing that they hold back or are too dumb to use it, just to get repeteadly defeated over the course of the game.
 
@Saman
Those aren’t clones. The clones are completely black or white depending on if Dharkon or Galeem summoned them. The things you fight when you select a spirit are supposed to represent the spirit itself. The game developers just couldn’t add over 200 to 600 characters into a single game so they use the closer fighter and color style to match the spirit.

Since Galeem has the power source the heroes are using times hundreds and Galeem is shown at the beginning and end of the story to instantly kill the fighters. I do view the times the fighters win as plot convenience. When Dharkon and Galeem lose in the story they are shown a few seconds later to be perfectly fine and to be fighting each other meaning you only slightly weaken Galeem and it allowed Dharkon the chance he needed. When you slightly weakened Dharkon then both Galeem and him could now evenly fight which leads to the end of the game. When you slightly weaken one of them again the other one immediately jumps on the ability to just end the fight there and one shots you along with everyone else.

As I mentioned earlier the creator clearly think you are supposed to be able to win only for them to completely contradict this ideal because they then show Galeem and Dharkon either one shooting you or having the thing you are using to power up times thousands

Edit: “like in his ending when he covers the world in darkness”

Dharkon did that literally via standing there and he started doing that the second he showed up. It is not a special attack that requires charge up.
 
Keeweed said:
Galeem is shown using his lasers whenever he fights Dharkon and those laser are the instant kill move that kill the fighters. Which is why I said earlier the fighters winning is massive plot convenience. Dharkon doesn’t even have a special attack, he’s constant shown using the same thing to attack Galeem as he does the fighters and Dharkon in the ending just instant kills them.

You don’t defeat MHs with the spirits. The spirits are there own entities. You can fight a MH in the final mission but you aren’t constantly destroying MHs your freeing the light and dark spirits. (By the way I still think defeating MH is an outlier and our current profile states this “Master Hand seems to often hold back the full extent of its power” that has to come from somewhere I just haven’t found where yet.)
Click to expand...
It came from misinterpreting a trophy statement (and likely someone just reading Master Hand's smash wiki page and thinking "it must be canon!"

Fighters win via spirits, that's the entire goal of WoL, free the spirits Galeem used to control the copy fighters to defeat Galeem, the intro literally states that.
 
As I’ve been trying to explain this entire time. Them winning with spirits is nonsensical. Galeem has vastly more than all the fighters combined and he one shot both the spirits and the fighters in a single attack. Amping yourself up doesn’t work if the thing that is amping you and yourself are both already stomped by your opponent.
 
One of MH’s trophies also states that he fighting the fighters for fun. Considering how in ultimate he can stomp dozens of clones (which can harm and threaten the fighters) dozens of times over, it’s very likely MH truly does hold back. Plus if this revision ever does start to focus on MH again I remember a few staff members had problems with MH scaling to the Pokémon gods smash descriptions (the whole reason smash is low 2-C), and some staff members didn’t even think the description truly counted as feats in the first place (but that was a long time ago so a new discussion should probably be made).
 
Seeing as the very narrative of the mode, the very goal, etc. is that getting spirits and freeing them is the goal to beating Galeem, all that tells me is you're naturally in base stronger then Galeem's base and his spirit amps is what allowed him to one-shot everyone or you get far more spirits then you can feasibly get in gameplay.
 
Keeweed said:
One of MH’s trophies also states that he fighting the fighters for fun. Considering how in ultimate he can stomp dozens of clones (which can harm and threaten the fighters) dozens of times over, it’s very likely MH truly does hold back. Plus if this revision ever does start to focus on MH again I remember a few staff members had problems with MH scaling to the Pokémon gods smash descriptions (the whole reason smash is low 2-C), and some staff members didn’t even think the description truly counted as feats in the first place (but that was a long time ago so a new discussion should probably be made).
Click to expand...
Which one is that, directly quote it.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Seeing as the very narrative of the mode, the very goal, etc. is that getting spirits and freeing them is the goal to beating Galeem, all that tells me is you're naturally in base stronger then Galeem's base and his spirit amps is what allowed him to one-shot everyone or you get far more spirits then you can feasibly get in gameplay.
Click to expand...
Galeem one shoot all the fighters combined and everyone else. The reason there are spirits is because of Galeem, he just made everyone he killed spirits (which is why he scales above them because they are spirits due to Galeem killing all of them combined in the first place).

Galeem only amped with spirits after he killed everyone. Meaning the spirits you gain on the way shouldn’t have help at all because 1) Base Galeem killed all of them in the first place, 2) Galeem then proceeded to gain thousands to millions of them while the fighters can at best get a few hundred.
 
@Keewee Those are actually clones, in the opening cutscene we see Galeem cloning the fighters using a golden slime and then animating it with a spirit.
What we fight aren't the actual spirits, but the army of cloned fighters possessed by them

I think that the fighters winning three times against Galeem and Dharkon goes definitely over it being plot convenience, but that is a different point of view
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, I don't think they're directly scaled from Galeem or Dharkon without amps, but with spirit amps yes they'd scale. Low 2-C comes from the descriptions of the Pokemon god being canon to Smash Bros based on what Saikou said.
Click to expand...
Forgive me for sounding stupid as my knowledge on Smash bros canon isn’t exactly the gold standard.

But if the Pokémon canon is canon to Smash, why isn’t 2-B on the table?
 
SamanPatou said:
@Keewee Those are actually clones, in the opening cutscene we see Galeem cloning the fighters using a golden slime and then animating it with a spirit.
What we fight aren't the actual spirits, but the army of cloned fighters possessed by them

I think that the fighters winning three times against Galeem and Dharkon goes definitely over it being plot convenience, but that is a different point of view
Click to expand...
That wasn’t the clones. That’s the trapped fighters you free throughout the game. The blue statue ones you gain a fighter for defeating is the ones you are referring too. The random spirits scattered all over the place are just the spirits.
 


Look here (timestamp is already set), these are definitely clones possessed by the spirits, different from the fighters you fight to gain the character
 
@GiveOfThePeace

“Which one is that, directly quote it.”

I’ll talk about MH after we finish talking about Galeem and Dharkon. Personally while I heavily disagree with the fighters scaling with Galeem in Dharkon in any shape or form. Most people seem to think they should. I still disagree, but I’m perfectly fine with giving profiles a possibly rating (like <insert tier here>, possibly <insert tier here> with spirits).
 
Personally I don't think that they scale, but I think that Galeem and Dharkon, without their AoE attack, are closer to the fighters in terms of power, and not vice versa. I mean, the fighters alone are way under Galeem and Dharkon, but all together I believe they can defeat them as the game shows.
Scaling the Hands to the trophies makes everyone low 2-C and breaks the scaling chain, but I can't oppose that, even if I would
 
SamanPatou said:


Look here (timestamp is already set), these are definitely clones possessed by the spirits, different from the fighters you fight to gain the character
Click to expand...

Ok I didn’t remember that part.

Though I still think Galeem and Dharkon are using the power of the spirits those clones have rather than the clones themselves weakening either of them. Heck that shows Galeem can use the spirits as a source of power because he uses the ones he put in the clone to power them. Galeem has thousands of the spirits inside of him at the end of the game so it’s not like the fighter would have been able to weaken him much by the end of the game.
 
We don't properly see the spirits being inside Galeem. The spirits start flying away once the world has returned as it was before, after that Galeem and Dharkon exploded.
For what we know, those might be spirits left around the world or simply those collected by the fighters, who managed to gather every single one of them

 
All those spirits are shown to be coming from the same spot. Which is heavily implied to be the part of the ocean Galeem and Dharkon’s body fell into.

On an unrelated note it is starting to become late where I live. I’ll still be on this site but I wanted to make CRT for something completely unrelated to Smash Bros tonight so I’ll be back later.
 
@Kukui, not that Pokemon's cosmology is canon to Smash, only that the Smash version of the Pokemon Creation Trio are canonical space-time creators.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Forgive me for sounding stupid as my knowledge on Smash bros canon isn’t exactly the gold standard.

But if the Pokémon canon is canon to Smash, why isn’t 2-B on the table?
Click to expand...
It's only the descriptions; like their trophy ones.

Otherwise Smash would be 2-A for having a confirmed infinite multiverse.
 
There was a statement in the young link Palutena’s guidance. It might be very high into 2-B instead of 2-A though.
 
Cosmology wise Smash should have its own version of every universe of the fighters, each of them having their own alternate dimensions. parallel universes etc..., which is still a good number, even without using the guidance.
But it doesn't scale to anyone, the best we have seen is Galeem being able to reach other universes with his rays.
 
Yeah, we don't see anyone destroying respective universes, but Smash has their own version of the Pokemon Universe. Which Smash versions of Palkia and Dialga are at least Low 2-C from those.
 
image0-29.jpg


"Everything in this world is cause and effect. The choices we make and the endings we reach create various parallel universes!"

It'd still be very high into 2-B.
 
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