Undertale and how Low tiers are handled

[ShionAH]

Not my point. The game didn't say it, I don't agree with applying speculation to the profile. Simple as that.

The game can visual tell which is what Toby was going for in the scene with the Theme and all that

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, I think it got enough agreements from knowledgeable members and staff, so I think it's good to be applied.

I only need Sans and Frisk profiles to get unlocked.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh frisk getting determined from a literal mouse kinda makes it stupid to assume they wouldnt be determined to be friends with Undyne the person that wants to kill them the most

Dude, you're unironically agreeing with 10-C Ruins monsters, you know that right?

Or better 9-C coz Snowgrave's Mother but still.

 

[ShionAH]

Dude, you're unironically agreeing with 10-C Ruins monsters, you know that right?

Or better 9-C coz Snowgrave's Mother but still.

Idk man Frisk not having any kind of DT in that scene is really weird. Since theres no proof we just gotta assume Frisk doesnt have any DT though

 

[StrymULTRA]

Idk man Frisk not having any kind of DT in that scene is really weird. Since theres no proof we just gotta assume Frisk doesnt have any DT though

I never said that Frisk had not DT, only that it's minimal as the DT changes stats only during fights.

 

[Ailamiona]

I mean by not having a soul Flowey is straight up immune to SOUL targetting attacks

Didnt toriel shoot flowey with a fireball and it flung him? Shouldnt it have not harmed him or can magic harm you physically

 

[StrymULTRA]

But that's not even what minimal DT Frisk scales from. They scale from Chara's fall, the oven explosion is for the Mid Determination.

Though that should be treated in another CRT.

 

[ShionAH]

I never said that Frisk had not DT, only that it's minimal as the DT changes stats only during fights.

I agree with you then

Didnt toriel shoot flowey with a fireball and it flung him? Shouldnt it have not harmed him or can magic harm you physically

Monsters deal physical and soul damage but Sans has weak ass attacks so he just abuses the soul damage part, this is derailing though

 

[StrymULTRA]

Didnt toriel shoot flowey with a fireball and it flung him? Shouldnt it have not harmed him or can magic harm you physically

Magic in Undertale harms both soul and body.

 

[Imaginym]

I would like to bring up another potential issue:

Frisk

Frisk is the protagonist of Undertale and the eighth human to fall into the Underground. Virtually nothing is known about their life prior to their fall, as even their gender remains ambiguous. Being taken in by Toriel, they eventually decide to leave and explore the Underground to potentially...

vsbattles.fandom.com

City Block level with Immense Determination (The full power of Frisk's SOUL rivals the entirety of the Underground[3]
The citation cites "Waterfall: The War of Humans and Monsters"

Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... ... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL. - Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall

That justification also cites a calc that has no comments clarifying it is accepted or unaccepted.
Said calculation linked by the profile also uses an assumption of thousands of monsters based on Mettaton's rating statistics, which seems somewhat viable.

However, wasn't part of the proposal upscaling monsters with 0 Defense because Frisk also has 0 Defense?
Frisk's in-game DEF stat never changes except from equipment during the Pacifist Route, & if their SOUL, as that of a human child, can equal thousands -Even a few orders of magnitude less is still significant- of monsters, why scale 0 DEF monsters to that?
Frisk's DEF stat is always 0 unless Chara or equipment is involved, no?

Sure it's with sufficient Determination, but the scan that justifies comparing a Human SOUL to all the monsters never specifies about how much Determination is needed, & surely it isn't a gap of over 10,000 times, right?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I would like to bring up another potential issue:

Frisk

Frisk is the protagonist of Undertale and the eighth human to fall into the Underground. Virtually nothing is known about their life prior to their fall, as even their gender remains ambiguous. Being taken in by Toriel, they eventually decide to leave and explore the Underground to potentially...

vsbattles.fandom.com

City Block level with Immense Determination (The full power of Frisk's SOUL rivals the entirety of the Underground[3]
The citation cites "Waterfall: The War of Humans and Monsters"

Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... ... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL. - Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall

That justification also cites a calc that has no comments clarifying it is accepted or unaccepted.
Said calculation linked by the profile also uses an assumption of thousands of monsters based on Mettaton's rating statistics, which seems somewhat viable.

However, wasn't part of the proposal upscaling monsters with 0 Defense because Frisk also has 0 Defense?
Frisk's in-game DEF stat never changes except from equipment during the Pacifist Route, & if their SOUL, as that of a human child can equal thousands of monsters, why scale 0 DEF monsters to that?
Frisk's DEF stat is always 0 unless Chara or equipment is involved, no?

Sure it's with sufficient Determination, but the scan that justifies comparing a Human SOUL to all the monsters never specifies about how much Determination is needed, & surely it isn't a gap of over 10,000 times, right?

I'll never understand why you make essays to tell such bs everytime you comment, ngl.

The thing is that DT changes Frisk's stats only in the fights, and 0 DEF is when they're in a non-fighting situation, such as when Chara fell.

Besides the CRT is already accepted and I'll ask for the unlock of the pages.

 

[Imaginym]

The thing is that DT changes Frisk's stats only in the fights,

Forgive my asking but it's been literal years since I completed Undertale. During which fights can it be verified that Frisk's in-game DEF stat, the basis of scaling 0 DEF monsters to them, is Frisk's DEF increase?

and 0 DEF is when they're in a non-fighting situation, such as when Chara fell.

& also the entire Pacifist Route since they never level up & have 0 DEF by in-game stats, no?

Even if you do disagree about what I say, what of the profile having a Calculation that lacks an Evaluation to verify its acceptance linked on the profile?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'll never understand why you make essays to tell such bs everytime you comment, ngl.

This was unnecessary. Tone it down.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Forgive my asking but it's been literal years since I completed Undertale. During which fights can it be verified that Frisk's in-game DEF stat, the basis of scaling 0 DEF monsters to them, is Frisk's DEF increase?

You cannot check your own stats mid-fights.

And the 0 DEF thing is based on a feat done in a non-fighting situation, where DT does not increase.

& also the entire Pacifist Route since they never level up & have 0 DEF by in-game stats, no?

0 DEF = 2-B now. Wow. Don't you see what are you implying now?

This was unnecessary. Tone it down.

I mean it just seems like they're making up excuses on why it shouldn't be accepted and is annoying a bit kek.

 

[ShionAH]

0 DEF = 2-B now. Wow. Don't you see what are you implying now?

2-B sans and Asriel is now infinitely layers into 2-B? Hooray!

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean it just seems like they're making up excuses on why it shouldn't be accepted and is annoying a bit kek.

Just don't escalate something that at the end of the day is inconsequential.

 

[Imaginym]

You cannot check your own stats mid-fights.

I know.

And the 0 DEF thing is based on a feat done in a non-fighting situation, where DT does not increase.

Okay, so the proposition is to scale 0 DEF Monsters have a human's physical feat (The fall of Chara &/or Frisk, IIRC?), correct?

0 DEF = 2-B now. Wow. Don't you see what are you implying now?

That was not my point.
We both know Frisk is surely more durable when they fight Asriel, as a result of their Determination, but that's their Durability.
My point was, in part, about using in-game stats.

My point was that part of this CRT's proposition seems to involve in-game stats, but as you pointed out, Frisk's stats cannot be checked mid-battle.
Yet I'm fairly confident you've argued during this thread, that, during fights, Frisk's Determination increases.

The in-game stats do not verifiably change as a result of circumstances where Frisk's Determination should be higher.

Ergo, said in-game stats shouldn't be used to upgrade supposedly 0 DEF monsters.

Not to mention even if Frisk being a child meant their SOUL wasn't full power, the quote doesn't say "full power", despite the justification on their profile using that phrasing. (& saying Frisk specifically when the quote doesn't specify any particular human.)

Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... ... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL. - Ancient Glyphs in Waterfall

So does that mean Frisk being a child without "immense Determination" (Despite that the quote doesn't specify level of Determination?) is four orders of magnitude weaker than an adult?
Because even then, four orders of magnitude, or 10,000 times weaker still means being around 12 times stronger than an individual monster, according to the Calculation linked on their profile.

So by that logic, scaling 0 DEF monsters to Frisk means scaling those monsters to someone with a SOUL literally a dozen times stronger than them!
Even without Determination, Frisk has a SOUL.

I mean it just seems like they're making up excuses on why it shouldn't be accepted and is annoying a bit kek.

I am disheartened that you feel that way.

I am trying to go by the profile & what's on the thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The point is that 0 DEF is what Chara had back then when they fell down, and Frisk could use their 8-B power only in a very specific situation, not in the fall thing lol.

Otherwise if 0 ATK/DEF were 8-B already for Frisk, they would take no damage from literally anything.

Besides it's already applied and I'll ask for this thread to get closed.

.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since changes were applied, will be closing this.

 

[Imaginym]

The point is that 0 DEF is what Chara had back then when they fell down, and Frisk could use their 8-B power only in a very specific situation, not in the fall thing lol.

Otherwise if 0 ATK/DEF were 8-B already for Frisk, they would take no damage from literally anything.

IMHO, still seems weird to scale Monsters to Humans when Humans seemingly have far stronger SOULs, which are primarily what Monsters target -Even if they do also damage the body- & for Monsters, a Monster's body & soul are practically synonymous.

Even if Frisk does normally lack the other 6 souls, a child being over 10,000 times weaker than an adult or 7 children seems questionable to me.

Besides it's already applied and I'll ask for this thread to get closed.

Whether you believe it or not, I value thoroughness, & I thought the points I've brought up hadn't been addressed thoroughly or not, hence I brought them up.

Disappointing that I bothered anyone, & sorry if I was misinformed.