Undertale and how Low tiers are handled

[StrymULTRA]

The STATs in Undertale here for low levels are an inconsistent mess which doesn't exactly make sense.

Let's see what is wrong here.

• Sans: 1 ATK/1DEF and is 10-B
• Moldsmal: 0 DEF and has 9-B durability
• Jerry: 0 ATK and is 10-C
• Vulkin: 0 DEF and has 9-B Durability
• Shyren: 0 DEF and has 9-B Durability
• Glad Dummy: 0 ATK/DEF and is 10-B
• Monster Kid: 2 ATK/DEF and is 10-B
• Snowdrake's Mother: -12 ATK/-4 DEF and is 10-C
• A LV 1 Human with 0 DEF and no DT can tank literally two 9-B durability feats

Some other things are:

• Sans with 1 ATK has a Tier 9 feat which is either 9-C+ or 9-B
• Snowdrake's Mother is as big as a refrigerator, which should make her 9-C

Yeah, you can see where I am heading at. 0 DEF in Undertale is 9-B, and this is made from humans who are very casual and not empowered from DT, so everyone who is 0 or higher should be 9-B as a result, with also the supportive feats I have for this.

Tldr: Every Tier 10 in Undertale should become 9-B outside of Snowdrake's Mother who is 9-C instead.

Edit: Sans' 9-A through TK should be nuked. He doesn't need the TK to deal 1 damage, his normal attacks to that without KR. Meaning that Sans himself is 9-A if we accept this, so yeah... no. He should be just 9-B.

 

[ImmortalDread]

So, a downgrade?

 

[Jason_Courne]

Ok there is a massive problem with scaling other monsters to Sans in general, like yes he does indeed do "1 damage" but that's one damage... PER FRAME
Aka 30 ATK, which is... well significantly above everyone else mentioned here

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok there is a massive problem with scaling other monsters to Sans in general, like yes he does indeed do "1 damage" but that's one damage... PER FRAME
Aka 30 ATK, which... well significantly above everyone else mentioned here

Uhm... That's just part of the KARMA stuff, not his normal ATK.

Without it he's 9-B.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Though I realized a thing. Why is he 9-A through TK? Because he can deal 1 damage even outside of it.

So... yeah, I think that we should yeet 9-A because otherwise Sans himself is 9-A which is bad lol.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Uhm... That's just part of the KARMA stuff, not his normal ATK.

No not really, he just straight up does 30 damage per second, it applies to all of his attacks
KARMA is the "poison" effect that damages you over time even through turn pauses

 

[StrymULTRA]

No not really, he just straight up does 30 damage per second, karma is the "poison" effect that damages you over time even through turn pauses

This is only the effect of the INV not applying from Sans' attacks. Ngl this legit feels like that old "Jotaro is Tier 6 when he uses Time Stop because of the damage stacking in one moment in time" argument.

The 30 HP are not dealt at once, they're only dealt through stacking via the lack of INV.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh yeah and this multiplier shit in Undertale does not work because 0 ATK or lower still inflicts damage, and 0 DEF does not take infinite damage, meaning that the stats are not linear, and are just superior to the lower value to an unquantifiable margin.

 

[Jason_Courne]

This is only the effect of the INV not applying from Sans' attacks.

It's Sans messing with game mechanics, but it's still doing a ton of damage

Ngl this legit feels like that old "Jotaro is Tier 6 when he uses Time Stop because of the damage stacking in one moment in time"

Honestly those two aren't really comparable, Jotaro's is done through hax and shit whereas Sans is just really fast and has absurd DPS
From pure ATK alone, Sans does 30 damage per second, in practically three seconds you are dead.

Oh yeah and this multiplier shit in Undertale

It does for Sans, he does 1 damage per frame = 30 damage per second

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's Sans messing with game mechanics, but it's still doing a ton of damage

Through damage stacking, not his normal ATK.

Honestly those two aren't really comparable, Jotaro's is done through hax and shit whereas Sans is just really fast and has absurd DPS

...Jotaro does from punching a lot in the Time Stop lol.

From pure ATK alone, Sans does 30 damage per second, in practically three seconds you are dead.

It does for Sans, he does 1 damage per frame = 30 damage per second

He does through KR, not ATK. Again, it does only because his attacks bypass INV unlike the other monsters. And it's even showcased with the TK, it deals only 1 damage because KR is not involved there.

 

[Roachman40]

Kinda iffy on glad dummy and jerry getting 9-B, I'd personally prefer if they get an Unknown considering they never really attack frisk at all, so we cant exactly quantify what they can do. Snowdrake's Mother being as large as a fridgerator isnt really enough to give her a tier 9 rating imo, fridgerators arent even all that big and her being able to reach such sizes I dont think would be enough to assume she would be such a tier alone, especially considering how weak she is in battle.

9-C/9-B calc for sans seems to have been rejected also, it seems

other than that everything looks alright from a glance

 

[StrymULTRA]

Kinda iffy on glad dummy and jerry getting 9-B, I'd personally prefer if they get an Unknown considering they never really attack frisk at all, so we cant exactly quantify what they can do.

It doesn't really need that though? We have already an ATK value for them, which should be enough for what they do offensively.

I can see an "Unknown, likely 9-B" at worst, but I just don't see it given their ATK is same as their DEF which is 9-B.

Snowdrake's Mother being as large as a fridgerator isnt really enough to give her a tier 9 rating imo, fridgerators arent even all that big and her being able to reach such sizes I dont think would be enough to assume she would be such a tier alone, especially considering how weak she is in battle.

1. In this case it was bigger than Frisk, and Frisk couldn't take it as different from a real one, which is 250 pounds (or 113 kg) heavy.
2. Her being weak just means that the rest upscales. We already have 8-C to everyone in Deltarune based on the weakest attack of the game when the "strongest" attacks are 9-B to 9-A at best.

Literally even with the lowest of the calcs you get in Kilojoule range for that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

9-C/9-B calc for sans seems to have been rejected also, it seems

Noticed it now.

Thread for that? Because in the comments a non calc staff assumes the bones to not be heavy as irl ones when we do that for Papyrus.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Yeah, I’m fine with these changes.

Noticed it now.

Thread for that? Because in the comments a non calc staff assumes the bones to not be heavy as irl ones when we do that for Papyrus.

Strange, because we happen to accept Papyrus’ bone being real which is why he has the Class 25 rating, so why wouldn’t Sans’ bones be real as well?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, I’m fine with these changes.

Strange, because we happen to accept Papyrus’ bone being real which is why he has the Class 25 rating, so why wouldn’t Sans’ bones be real as well?

Well, the calc wasn't rejected, and would just support Sans' 7 MegaJoules upscaling regardless.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

A LV 1 Human with 0 DEF and no DT can tank literally two 9-B durability feats

Pretty sure Human STATs aren't compatible with Monster Checks, so yeah
As for Sans, I'm pretty sure all his magic is 9-A now due to being able to kill Flowey and stuff

 

[StrymULTRA]

Pretty sure Human STATs aren't compatible with Monster Checks, so yeah

Why wouldn't they? They work on the same basis.

As for Sans, I'm pretty sure all his magic is 9-A now due to being able to kill Flowey and stuff

He does through KR, not physical power like Undyne. And Sans being 9-A means 1 ATK is 9-A too that is nonsense.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Why wouldn't they? They work on the same basis.

Temmie Armor, which would only put Frisk at around Papyrus' level if this was case, lets them basically no-sell Undyne and Asgore

He does through KR, not physical power like Undyne. And Sans being 9-A means 1 ATK is 9-A too that is nonsense.

I think it was argued that since Flowey lacks a SOUL, Sans wouldn't be able to beat him through KR

 

[StrymULTRA]

Temmie Armor, which would only put Frisk at around Papyrus' level if this was case, lets them basically no-sell Undyne and Asgore

The same Frisk who can change the STATs through DT, they can tank Asriel thanks to that, you know. The armor just adds extra STATs to the already DT-Boosted DEF, it's not like Frisk is only 20 in the fights. They can vary their STATs through DT and the armors/weapons are only an extra to this, they're not the limit of those.

I think it was argued that since Flowey lacks a SOUL, Sans wouldn't be able to beat him through KR

Actually it's just KR being able to harm soulless beings, as him dealing 1 damage to even a Frisk with 99 DEF was attributed to his low ATK.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The same Frisk who can change the STATs through DT, they can tank Asriel thanks to that, you know. The armor just adds extra STATs to the already DT-Boosted DEF, it's not like Frisk is only 20 in the fights. They can vary their STATs through DT and the armors/weapons are only an extra to this, they're not the limit of those.

Still, Humans are naturally a lot stronger than monsters, so it wouldn't really make sense for a human to be weaker than even the weakest monsters
Plus, a High-LOVE Frisk would also shatter their arm if they ever attack if we take their STATs as true (30-something ATK and like 4 DEF)

 

[ShionAH]

Actually it's just KR being able to harm soulless beings, as him dealing 1 damage to even a Frisk with 99 DEF was attributed to his low ATK.

That really doesnt make sense though. Sans deals 1 damage to frisk which means he really downscales 9-A Frisk Idk what this means though lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

Still, Humans are naturally a lot stronger than monsters, so it wouldn't really make sense for a human to be weaker than even the weakest monsters

They are a child when their DT is minimal, not an adult.

DT is what makes them OP, as that allows them to grow the STATs in such an abnormal way.

Plus, a High-LOVE Frisk would also shatter their arm if they ever attack if we take their STATs as true (30-something ATK and like 4 DEF)

So what? It's the DT what alters their stats. They have such low dura when the DT is minimal and their LV is high.

That really doesnt make sense though. Sans deals 1 damage to frisk which means he really downscales 9-A Frisk Idk what this means though lol

Argument from incredulity. The reason why he can deal 1 damage is explicitly because of his 1 ATK. So either make every monster who is => 1 ATK 9-A or make that just a property of KR to be able to harm soulless stuff.

 

[ShionAH]

Argument from incredulity. The reason why he can deal 1 damage is explicitly because of his 1 ATK. So either make every monster who is => 1 ATK 9-A or make that just a property of KR to be able to harm soulless stuff.

So sans can soul hax...soulles beings? Does sans negate soul hax immunity

 

[StrymULTRA]

So sans can soul hax...soulles beings? Does sans negate soul hax immunity

Tldr, yes. KR is that OP.

 

[ShionAH]

Tldr, yes. KR is that OP.

Holy shit. Question does that mean he can negate resistance too? Since immunity is just way better resistance

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

They are a child when their DT is minimal, not an adult.

DT is what makes them OP, as that allows them to grow the STATs in such an abnormal way.

The Humans' physical forms already naturally puts them above most monsters, so it doesn't maker sense for Monster Kid to be stronger than even a Low-DT Frisk

 

[Dragonite007]

Holy shit. Question does that mean he can negate resistance too? Since immunity is just way better resistance

No

 

[ShionAH]

No

Why not

 

[StrymULTRA]

Holy shit. Question does that mean he can negate resistance too? Since immunity is just way better resistance

That depends on how the resistance of the character is. Sans in this case can just apply KR (and thus the dura neg) to Flowey despite him lacking a SOUL. If a Character is straight up immune to SOUL targetting attacks, there I dunno if KR still applies lol.

The Humans' physical forms already naturally puts them above most monsters, so it doesn't maker sense for Monster Kid to be stronger than even a Low-DT Frisk

That's again argument from incredulity. At most you can argue 0 DEF monsters being able to tank attacks from a Low DT Frisk, thus still scaling from the oven explosion.

 

[ShionAH]

That depends on how the resistance of the character is. Sans in this case can just apply KR (and thus the dura neg) to Flowey despite him lacking a SOUL. If a Character is straight up immune to SOUL targetting attacks, there I dunno if KR still applies lol.

I mean by not having a soul Flowey is straight up immune to SOUL targetting attacks lol, I am neutral for now but I agree with Sans magic being 10-B with dura neg

 

[Dragonite007]

Why not

Immunity is not a way better resistance, it just the lack of something.

If I can mind hax a mindless been that don't mean a can mind hax someone with resistance to mind hax

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean by not having a soul Flowey is straight up immune to SOUL targetting attacks lol, I am neutral for now but I agree with Sans magic being 10-B with dura neg

I mean that he can treat Soulless beings as still having a SOUL to target. Plus, the resistance thing is a can of worms I'd rather not touch as it depends from the verse.

Plus is 9-B*

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

That's again argument from incredulity. At most you can argue 0 DEF monsters being able to tank attacks from a Low DT Frisk, thus still scaling from the oven explosion.

I mean, Humans >>> Monsters
Then Kid Humans >>> Kid Monsters
But even if Frisk's Baseline is actually 0 ATK and DEF, don't think we can scale any of the monsters to 9-B, since we don't know if Frisk actually had 0 DEF when they happened

 

[ShionAH]

I mean that he can treat Soulless beings as still having a SOUL to target. Plus, the resistance thing is a can of worms I'd rather not touch as it depends from the verse.

Plus is 9-B*

Will his normal attacks (punches and etc) still be 10-B

 

[StrymULTRA]

But even if Frisk's Baseline is actually 0 ATK and DEF, don't think we can scale any of the monsters to 9-B, since we don't know if Frisk actually had 0 DEF when they happened

They can tank with no damage Undyne's oven exploding even with 0 DEF and they have 0 ATK too. Meaning that their AP = Dura with no items and no DT.

Will his normal attacks (punches and etc) still be 10-B

His bones through KE alone are 9-B, so any attack of his will be 9-B even without KR.

 

[ShionAH]

What if sans KR also works on the body?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What if sans KR also works on the body?

Isn't SOUL damage = Body damage by default though?

Given that Frisk can heal from eating physical food.

 

[ShionAH]

Given that Frisk can heal from eating physical food.

Monster food is magical though?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Monster food is magical though?

Some of them are literaly everyday food like Butterscotch Pie, Bisicle (which is just a popsicle), Cinnamon Bunny (just a cinnamon roll) or the Legendary Hero (which is just a sandwich).

 

[ShionAH]

Some of them are literaly everyday food like Butterscotch Pie, Bisicle (which is just a popsicle), Cinnamon Bunny (just a cinnamon roll) or the Legendary Hero (which is just a sandwich).