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precisely
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Do you need more? I could keep going, but to deny this is just kind of silly, I'm ngl.
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this probably isn't very important, but considering that both WD and Sans are named after fonts, I think that handwriting in Sans' lab might have slightly more significance than it would otherwise. That's just me though.
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To knock these out one by one...
Alphys and Sans know eachother, woo, that's... not really surprising considering Sans follows that up with "Doesn't everybody?" But remains the only real evidence they've done anything together
"I mean... I wouldn't rule it out" doesn't exactly mean Sans knows about the Amalgamates, why leap the bound in "he must know what's down there" when the simpler thing he could be saying is "eh, maybe."
"Our reports" could imply Alphys, but at the same time, very vague. Probably posh.
Chicken scratch near the Mettaton box thing in Snowdin and in an MMT set is more evidence Mettaton knows Sans more then anything.
Gaster could be referring to literally any 2 people, not just Sans and Alphys.
I can already tell you almost every single piece from the secret room could easily be working with someone who isn't Mystery city or Alphys. Especially since you can go to that room... after you've met Alphys. And seen what people think is Gaster.
Alphys and Sans know eachother, woo, that's... not really surprising considering Sans follows that up with "Doesn't everybody?" But remains the only real evidence they've done anything together
"I mean... I wouldn't rule it out" doesn't exactly mean Sans knows about the Amalgamates, why leap the bound in "he must know what's down there" when the simpler thing he could be saying is "eh, maybe."
"Our reports" could imply Alphys, but at the same time, very vague. Probably posh.
Chicken scratch near the Mettaton box thing in Snowdin and in an MMT set is more evidence Mettaton knows Sans more then anything.
Gaster could be referring to literally any 2 people, not just Sans and Alphys.
I can already tell you almost every single piece from the secret room could easily be working with someone who isn't Mystery city or Alphys. Especially since you can go to that room... after you've met Alphys. And seen what people think is Gaster.
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Rinneltachi seems to make the most sense here, so combined with Sans' superhuman analytical ability and the evidence that they posted, I still think that "At least Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius" (with "possibly" designating a possibility, not a fact, or a statement that it is likely) seems reasonable.
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Honestly, Ant's summary works for me, and I'm better with "At least" as opposed to "Likely," since Sans' intelligence in this regard is more than justified with the evidence sprinkled throughout the game, imo.
The_Yellow_Topaz
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RESPONSE TO RINNEITACHI
- "(There's some kind of badge.)"; Obviously implying he had a badge to designate him as some kind of scientist.
"(Blueprints.) (You can't read the symbols they're written in...) (...or maybe it's just the hand writing.) (Looks like they relate to some kind of strange machine.)" On one hand, Wind-Ding's would commonly be described as symbols by the average person, and well, they are. On the other hand, Alphys is explicitly said to have terrible "chicken-scratch" handwriting.
By this point Frisk would've obviously already seen and recognized Alphys' handwritting, not only that, it's just a speculation based on the fact they can't understand them. You're just making a correlation and claiming with vigor that it's "common sense" to assume it's Alphys. It's not. There is no instance where Alphys' own handwritting is mistaken for symbols by Frisk, which already makes this different from hers and Papyrus by default.
I'm pretty sure it might be a feat in the future, currently, it isn't.
But anyways ye Sans scientist stuff.
- Probably unintentional but Sans and the word trash are very commonly related to each other.
- References to Deltarune.
- Sans-"i mean. (Winks) i wouldn't rule it out"; The fact that Alphys is perfectly fine with Sans very blatantly knowing about the Amalgamates-
- So basically Alphys and Sans have a deep and old friendship
I don't have a reason to tangle with the Gaster portion. Again, it's all just Theory/Speculation based on lines of the game, the "we 99% know he is a time traveller" part is just a blatant false claim, we know he came from somewhere else that's different from Undertale. It's more like, we "40% have a notion that he might be from Deltarune's future/timeline".
Vague implications that a partnership might've happened is also not relevant for intelligence ratings, and simply working alongside E.G doesn't warrant much too. Otherwise those caveman from Dr. Stone would be geniuses for working alongside Senku. We wouldn't know what's the extent of Sans' contribution is.
King_Dom470
He/Him- 3,441
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Feel like sans’ implied relationship means a lot more considering that he’s super heavily implied to be a scientist that is Capable of working with scientists who are E.G’s. For comparison if sans was only gifted it would be like regular genius’s working with someone who’s just above average.
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Good response.
"If it were wing-dings, the thought of it being just handwritting wouldn't be possible, wing ding is very specific. But again, I must point out how this is just again Confirmation Bias, Papyrus is also known for having such bad writing.
By this point Frisk would've obviously already seen and recognized Alphys' handwritting, not only that, it's just a speculation based on the fact they can't understand them. You're just making a correlation and claiming with vigor that it's "common sense" to assume it's Alphys. It's not. There is no instance where Alphys' own handwritting is mistaken for symbols by Frisk, which already makes this different from hers and Papyrus by default."
Yeah I just can't see myself agreeing with this tbh. Papyrus having bad handwriting is fine and all, but Alphys' having bad handwriting, rather, handwriting so unimaginably terrible that it is regarded as unintelligible chicken scratch, is an explicitly mentioned character trait she consistently has. It is mentioned mentioned and joked about about multiple times in the game, and is most certainly a reference to the classic joke that doctors have terrible handwriting, a real-life joke used often that Toby is taking and applying to a nerdy scientist doctor character of his. I do agree that it very likely isn't Wing-Ding's and was only mentioning it as a possibility previously, I severely doubt it, and I think that Toby added it as an intentional red herring just to immediately crush it with the follow up sentence of it potentially just being really bad handwriting.
Yes, it's meant to be vague and interpretive, but within that vagueness, you are also supposed to be able to make rational conclusions from what little evidence is given, and there is no reason to assume it was anyone but Alphys. The only scientist we know that is currently alive in the Underground (besides Sans), the second Royal Scientist following Gaster, the single character besides Sans and DT users to understand and know about timelines, the ONLY character to know Sans outside of Snowdin's Residents who barely know him at all, and technically Toriel who just exchanged jokes with him, furthermore that Sans is known to not talk to anyone about anything and is a massive loner. It's fine to say that it might not be Alphys, yes, but she is by far the most likely candidate, without comparison or debate. Papyrus, especially, makes no sense, because there is no suggestion throughout the entire game that Papyrus has any knowledge or interest in any aspects of science whatsoever, on the contrary it is rather implied that he thinks it's boring and doesn't really care about it, even calling it "nerdy" when Undyne merely mentioned the idea of reading a book to him, but he clearly respects his brothers passion for it and likes that Sans has a genuine interest in something besides relaxing or telling jokes.
"This is reaching. There's nothing else to it, it's just reaching, two instances where Flowey trash talks Sans and calls him trash, and Papyrus makes a funny quip. That doesn't gatekeep the term to Sans' character."
There's more than that, but I agree that it is a reach. Though I didn't really consider it an actual part of my argument, I just threw it out there "because", feel free to disregard it.
"While I completely think and personally believe Undertale Sans is just Deltarune Sans from the future (who got himself trapped in this universe), we're not going to tangle around with the purposedly ambiguous references and index or use Deltarune as a evidence yet. I'm pretty sure more concrete evidence that connect both Sans' is going to sprout, but let's not engage in that now, it's really theory territory,"
It's an iffy subject imo. I mean, there is just so much evidence that, even if not Deltarune in specific, Sans is 99.999999% certainly some sort of multiversal traveller, but yeah it's still technically a theory so I can agree with this.
"This comment referring to the Amalgamates is really just an assumption."
It's not just that, there's more evidence. Namely however, that Papyrus says he recognizes the dog food bag in Alphys' lab, a bag that is there specifically to hint at Endogeny's presence (unless we think it's a Toby Fox joke, but seems random and out-of-place). It's speculative to say that Sans had a part in anything in the True Lab, however there is no question that he is aware of it, in my opinion.
"They know each other, that's all you managed to prove."
They have an extremely in-depth relationship, so deep that Alphys can predict things Sans will say just because of how well she knows him, and it is suggested that they may have, or even likely, worked together before on some project(s).
"I don't have a reason to tangle with the Gaster portion. Again, it's all just Theory/Speculation based on lines of the game, the "we 99% know he is a time traveller" part is just a blatant false claim, we know he came from somewhere else that's different from Undertale. It's more like, we "40% have a notion that he might be from Deltarune's future/timeline"."
The time traveller thing was bad wording on my part. I more so mean world-traveller. Time-space traveller. That kind of thing. The chances of him being from Deltarune are extremely high. Again, he quite literally has an object that could ONLY EXIST in the Deltarune timeline, based on all other information we have.
"Vague implications that a partnership might've happened is also not relevant for intelligence ratings, and simply working alongside E.G doesn't warrant much too. Otherwise those caveman from Dr. Stone would be geniuses for working alongside Senku. We wouldn't know what's the extent of Sans' contribution is."
If it wasn't at all implied that Sans was a fellow scientist who worked with them directly in the projects, I would agree.
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Ty for input. But you missed an easy Gaster reference by only pinging two staff and saying "WHAT DO YOU TWO THINK?"
Downvoted
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I do agree that it was a good response from topaz, actually
But at the very end of the day, we do agree that sans and Alphys were closely associated and we do agree that sans is a scientist,
I’ll have to read what Rinnetachi wrote before elaborating on my argument though, because he may have already covered it.
But at the very end of the day, we do agree that sans and Alphys were closely associated and we do agree that sans is a scientist,
I’ll have to read what Rinnetachi wrote before elaborating on my argument though, because he may have already covered it.
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Sans is literally saying that to deflect and dilute the situation. The entire point of him saying that is that Alphys is nervous, and to protect the secret they seem to share, Sans acts like he's well-known by everyone, when on the contrary it is heavily implied throughout the majority of the game, including by Papyrus who is most surprised at this revelation, that Sans is a loner, and even goes as far as to say that he "DOESN'T TELL ANYBODY ANYTHING!". Undyne herself barely knows Sans at all and literally almost never refers to him by name. People do not know Sans, but there are some Underground residents that know OF Sans, simply due him being a comedian and a frequent at Grillbys. Papyrus himself does not know Alphys at all besides her being the Royal Scientist, which adds to his surprise.
He is winking while saying this and Sans pretty much exists as the personification of the "vague character" who is mysterious and constantly implies things while usually never being direct in them, he is a troll and a prankster, who Toby absolutely adores using as a lore blue-ball, even in unofficial Undertale content. But adding onto that, Papyrus outright mentions recognizing the bag of dog food in the lab, implying that Sans literally gives Alphys dog food for Endogeny.
Yes it is vague, I agree. However I relate it to Alphys because she is exclusively the only other known living character Sans even could be referring to that knows about timelines.
Mettaton was not there, that was a machine used to generate a puzzle that Papyrus, who is an avid and self-admitted Mettaton lover, specifically says he had to ask Undyne to contact Alphys for Alphys to make it, with no mention of Mettaton in sight even though Papyrus is a self-proclaimed fan. Yes, the machine looks similar to Mettaton's box, but seeing as Alphys created Mettaton, it means very little. And "MTT set" that was Alphys' main laboratory, and the paper in question was on her desk. That is not a MTT set, it was just used for the scene.
"literally any 2 people" Ah yes clearly he was talking to the 3rd Froggit in the Froggit dialogue room and the Nice Cream guy. Sans and Alphys are not guaranteed, yes, they are simply very likely.
Please explain who so I can apply it to new ideas instead of using the only two "theories" that would even remotely make sense.
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Okay. It seems like me and Starter Pack agree with "At least Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius", whereas Eficiente disagrees, then.
ShionAH
He/Him- 17,165
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Yeah that seems to be the case
Maybe @Elizhaa or @Andytrenom might solve this. (Or @Ultima_Reality since he is for some reason listed as Neutral lol I didnt even know he liked Undertale)
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The_Yellow_Topaz
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JUST SOME MORE THINGS
We're going to reach a point where we basically agree with the evidence, but not the conclusion.
But I need to point out some inconsistencies in your arguments.
We're going to reach a point where we basically agree with the evidence, but not the conclusion.
But I need to point out some inconsistencies in your arguments.
- We have no reason to assume it's anyone but Alphys.
Frisk immediately recognizes Alphys' writing as handwritting.
Frisk says the symbols they see might be handwritting.
I can concede on some points, but I really insist that this one is really too vague to be used.
- It's not just that, there's more evidence. Namely however, that Papyrus says he recognizes the dog food bag in Alphys' lab, a bag that is there specifically to hint at Endogeny's presence (unless we think it's a Toby Fox joke, but seems random and out-of-place).
Hmmm... Oh, then I might concede on that. I'd just like to point out that most Toby Fox jokes are random and out-of-place, that's part of the punchline, lol. But yeah, the bag is 100% hinting at Endogeny, and with that, Sans' line seems far more telling.
- They have an extremely in-depth relationship, so deep that Alphys can predict things Sans will say just because of how well she knows him, and it is suggested that they may have, or even likely, worked together before on some project(s).
I still don't see how it's suggested they have a project together. This is about scaling Sans and Alphys as comparatively smart, I assume? I don't know if we have enough for that.
- The time traveller thing was bad wording on my part. I more so mean world-traveller.
We agree then.
- If it wasn't at all implied that Sans was a fellow scientist who worked with them directly in the projects, I would agree.
ShionAH
He/Him- 17,165
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I gotta say something, this is only in the case with Genius and below
An EG and Genius cannot work together since the difference between Genius and EG is too much (EGs are mostly able craft stuff that is considered impossible or supernatural by Genius standarts)
Someone thats Gifted can still work with Albert Einstein since they know the basics irl but imagine Albert Einstein trying to work with someone that can make Reality Warping, Time Traveling, Dimension Manipulating machines
Same goes for EG and SG. This is my view on this
The_Yellow_Topaz
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Literally the Senku example again.
Again, Alphys is not Extraordinary Genius in fields of knowledge on time travel or anything related to Sans. It's in robotics and hacking. This thread only makes me want to make a clean-up of her profile tbh
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Geniuses and Extraordinary Geniuses can in fact work in unison with one another.
Same goes for basically every level of Intelligence gifted and above.
The difference between levels is not a linear, all-encompassing gap. People can be intelligent in different categories and less intelligent in others.
You can be an extraordinary genius in regards to mathematics and calculations but actually suck ass at creating or engineering things, for example, to the point that even a genius in that field could help you out.
Goes for every field of study and every metric of intelligence.
As Topaz mentioned, this exact concept applies here since Alphys isn't some all-encompassing genius in every field. Only what she's shown to be knowledgeable in, which does not include the topics necessary for your arguments to make sense.
Same goes for basically every level of Intelligence gifted and above.
The difference between levels is not a linear, all-encompassing gap. People can be intelligent in different categories and less intelligent in others.
You can be an extraordinary genius in regards to mathematics and calculations but actually suck ass at creating or engineering things, for example, to the point that even a genius in that field could help you out.
Goes for every field of study and every metric of intelligence.
As Topaz mentioned, this exact concept applies here since Alphys isn't some all-encompassing genius in every field. Only what she's shown to be knowledgeable in, which does not include the topics necessary for your arguments to make sense.
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I am fine with At least Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius.
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By the way the entire idea of "at least genius" infers that Sans has solid genius or above feats, which he doesn't. I don't know where that comes from.
The argument is that his vague stuff gets him to EG. Which is where the possibly comes from.
And because of that, there should be no "genius" involved in his rating.
At best, it should be "at least gifted, possibly extraordinary genius"
But anyway, I advise staff to give Topaz's arguments a read because most of that EG stuff has been thoroughly challenged and disputed.
The argument is that his vague stuff gets him to EG. Which is where the possibly comes from.
And because of that, there should be no "genius" involved in his rating.
At best, it should be "at least gifted, possibly extraordinary genius"
But anyway, I advise staff to give Topaz's arguments a read because most of that EG stuff has been thoroughly challenged and disputed.
King_Dom470
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common L Phoenks
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Besides all of that, what are your thoughts on the strange machine as a whole? Regardless of the other subjects, I believe it can be agreed that Sans built it himself using blueprints made by another? Otherwise I agree on virtually everything, however I'm still iffy about how Sans working with other scientists of an extremely high intelligence correlates to his own, but I intend to address that separately.
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the face expression reading feat alone is genius, but there is a consensus from both sides, it seems, that Sans and Alphys were coworkers in some capacity, along with them both having known about alternate timeline stuff
there's really no way gifted is going through when we've at least got that as a baseline.
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That baseline is still only gifted lol.
The expression reading, as I've said so many times, is a single feat in a very particular category. It is in no way enough to put him solidly at Genius.
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Plus it's only minorly Superhuman at best!
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Fact.
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So anyways, Sans working with scientists that are of an EG level could very easily make him Genius+ or still just be enough for a vague Gifted rating depending on the admittedly lacking context.
If Sans was at the center of the group and largely significant in their research, operations, and projects (more likely but still only plausible), there is no question whatsoever that he would at least be a Genius, probably an Extraordinary Genius, for the simple reason that he would be at the same level as, understand complex concepts at the same level as, think at the same level as, perform at the same level as, and perhaps lead people of the level of Extraordinary Genius or a comparable rating. However it's still entirely possible that he was more so "helpful" in their projects, but still not a major part in it. It seems unlikely simply due to who he is as a character, and the fact that the photo album in his lab which is very likely a photo of him and his colleagues based on him being "happy" in it (Papyrus mentions how much Sans adores anything related to science and is a major science nerd whereas he is literally never called happy at any other point in the entire game), his scientist badge being right next to that photo album in the adjacent drawer, and the wording that regards the photos as being "of" him, whereas everyone else is "with" him. Not to mention the fact that he almost certainly built a machine of an EG level, or meant to be one, and the way he did that was through understanding and properly using blueprints that were very likely provided by an EG level character, probably being Alphys (which, if that were to be accepted as correct, would absolutely be a Genius level feat, a mere Gifted character could by no means understand and use EG-tier blueprints).
Personally, while I know I've flopped back and forth on this thread, I am feeling more and more agreeable with "At least Gifted, likely Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius". I suggested it earlier iirc (or maybe only thought of it but didn't actually post it), and Ant suggested it again recently. I mean I can't personally think of a better rating as less of an individual and as more as a group, as it very easily accounts for all possibilities and emphasizes that Sans is probably a Genius, as long as all justifications are listed in the area meant for them, there is literally nothing that would be unaccounted for, nor would it effect his "performance" in versus threads in literally ANY way. It doesn't effect the character, the page, or anything, it literally just sounds different. Hell, it could even be altered from the usual wordings slightly and I wouldn't see an issue there. Like "Minimum Gifted, most likely Genius, possibly EG" for example.
Honestly, I think the only "issue" that it would cause is that the very word "Gifted" used in this context does not at all fit how versus battles wiki defines it, by the perspective of most people that know and use the word. "Gifted" in this context, or in most contexts in fact, is usually more so meant to describe Above Average intelligence. I would honestly change all of the names of the intelligence ratings of Gifted or above to one position below them, renaming Supergenius and Above Average to Gifted. Above Average sounds weird anyways imo. But that's all just my subjective opinion, however I would imagine it being a popular one. Main problem is the amount of pages that would need to be changed, obviously.
If Sans was at the center of the group and largely significant in their research, operations, and projects (more likely but still only plausible), there is no question whatsoever that he would at least be a Genius, probably an Extraordinary Genius, for the simple reason that he would be at the same level as, understand complex concepts at the same level as, think at the same level as, perform at the same level as, and perhaps lead people of the level of Extraordinary Genius or a comparable rating. However it's still entirely possible that he was more so "helpful" in their projects, but still not a major part in it. It seems unlikely simply due to who he is as a character, and the fact that the photo album in his lab which is very likely a photo of him and his colleagues based on him being "happy" in it (Papyrus mentions how much Sans adores anything related to science and is a major science nerd whereas he is literally never called happy at any other point in the entire game), his scientist badge being right next to that photo album in the adjacent drawer, and the wording that regards the photos as being "of" him, whereas everyone else is "with" him. Not to mention the fact that he almost certainly built a machine of an EG level, or meant to be one, and the way he did that was through understanding and properly using blueprints that were very likely provided by an EG level character, probably being Alphys (which, if that were to be accepted as correct, would absolutely be a Genius level feat, a mere Gifted character could by no means understand and use EG-tier blueprints).
Personally, while I know I've flopped back and forth on this thread, I am feeling more and more agreeable with "At least Gifted, likely Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius". I suggested it earlier iirc (or maybe only thought of it but didn't actually post it), and Ant suggested it again recently. I mean I can't personally think of a better rating as less of an individual and as more as a group, as it very easily accounts for all possibilities and emphasizes that Sans is probably a Genius, as long as all justifications are listed in the area meant for them, there is literally nothing that would be unaccounted for, nor would it effect his "performance" in versus threads in literally ANY way. It doesn't effect the character, the page, or anything, it literally just sounds different. Hell, it could even be altered from the usual wordings slightly and I wouldn't see an issue there. Like "Minimum Gifted, most likely Genius, possibly EG" for example.
Honestly, I think the only "issue" that it would cause is that the very word "Gifted" used in this context does not at all fit how versus battles wiki defines it, by the perspective of most people that know and use the word. "Gifted" in this context, or in most contexts in fact, is usually more so meant to describe Above Average intelligence. I would honestly change all of the names of the intelligence ratings of Gifted or above to one position below them, renaming Supergenius and Above Average to Gifted. Above Average sounds weird anyways imo. But that's all just my subjective opinion, however I would imagine it being a popular one. Main problem is the amount of pages that would need to be changed, obviously.
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Gifted just means you show a fair bit of knowledge in a few categories.
Most real world scientists, biologists, doctors, etc, would fall into that category.
Above average is just... If I had to think of a real world example it'd be most college graduates and typically "smart" people.
Most real world scientists, biologists, doctors, etc, would fall into that category.
Above average is just... If I had to think of a real world example it'd be most college graduates and typically "smart" people.
ShionAH
He/Him- 17,165
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- Thread starter
- #280
3 Agree, @Antvasima @Elizhaa @Starter_Pack
1 Disagree, @Eficiente
@Elizhaa Thank you for your help and listening to us.
I also want to say Phoenks implying you three are biased is kinda rude and Phoenks should calm down. They simply disagree with Topaz and Agree with us. The same way you disagree with us. Simple.
1 Disagree, @Eficiente
@Elizhaa Thank you for your help and listening to us.
I also want to say Phoenks implying you three are biased is kinda rude and Phoenks should calm down. They simply disagree with Topaz and Agree with us. The same way you disagree with us. Simple.
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