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Sans Resistance Negation Addition

Also, it should be said that repetitive damage actually gets you on a whole next tier, Luffy being an example when his single punch basically does nothing but his gutling - does

Or Heavy from TF2 actually doesn't care about 3x+ AP difference since well, he does too much damage per second.
 
ShionAH said:
Flowey is accepted to be soulless
Click to expand...
Soulless would be he has an immunity to soul manipulation not a resistance. Which is exactly as it is on the page.

Sans must have found some other way to kill Flowey that didn't involve his soul.

Or that is just a big inconsistency.

Even if you don't think it was an inconsistency, Flowey would just lose his immunity. You can't negate an immunity on this website as that means lacking the concept of influence.

For example, immunity to soul manipulation means lacking a soul.

Immunity to mind manipulation means lacking a mind.

You can't "bypass" that without some extremely specific abilities that Sans does not show to have.

So either Flowey loses his immunity completely (as this assumed Sans can't beat Flowey without hitting the soul) or we treat this as an inconsistency.

I believe we go with the latter.
 
ShionAH said:
Yes thats how his durability negation works + KARMA poison
Click to expand...
No no. Sans gives 1 damage per frame on spending blast + karma.

Every damage you take, in addition to normal damage, you still take karma. Without the presence of karma, you would still take constant damage since you take 1 damage.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
No no. Sans gives 1 damage per frame on spending blast + karma.

Every damage you take, in addition to normal damage, you still take karma. Without the presence of karma, you would still take constant damage since you take 1 damage.
Click to expand...
Wrong. If we remove sans dura neg then his bones will deal 1 damage and disappear.
Phoenks said:
Soulless would be he has an immunity to soul manipulation not a resistance. Which is exactly as it is on the page.

Sans must have found some other way to kill Flowey that didn't involve his soul.

Or that is just a big inconsistency.

Even if you don't think it was an inconsistency, Flowey would just lose his immunity. You can't negate an immunity on this website as that means lacking the concept of influence.

For example, immunity to soul manipulation means lacking a soul.

Immunity to mind manipulation means lacking a mind.

You can't "bypass" that without some extremely specific abilities that Sans does not show to have.

So either Flowey loses his immunity completely (as this assumed Sans can't beat Flowey without hitting the soul) or we treat this as an inconsistency.

I believe we go with the latter
Click to expand...
What if sans can also dura neg the body normally? Like he can dura neg the soul but if theres no soul he can just focus on the physical body and dura neg that?
 
ShionAH said:
Wrong. If we remove sans dura neg then his bones will deal 1 damage and disappear.
Click to expand...
I literally meant the Gaster Blast which is like that, not your normal bones.

The Gaster Blast does an attack rate of 1 damage per frame from what I remember, which is why it does a lot of damage even without the karma.
 
ShionAH said:
Wrong. If we remove sans dura neg then his bones will deal 1 damage and disappear.

What if sans can also dura neg the body normally? Like he can dura neg the soul but if theres no soul he can just focus on the physical body and dura neg that?
Click to expand...
Sans already has dura neg and poison manipulation which affects HP, not inherently the soul.

Flowey should still have HP despite not having a soul, which would explain him being able to kill Flowey.
 
Phoenks said:
Sans already has dura neg and poison manipulation which affects HP, not inherently the soul.

Flowey should still have HP despite not having a soul, which would explain him being able to kill Flowey.
Click to expand...
Speaking of which, if we consider that magic affects both the body and the soul.

Why are we considering that Karma only affects the soul and not the body? Is there a difference I didn't notice? It's been a long time since I've seen anything from Undertale and even less on the wiki.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Why are we considering that Karma only affects the soul and not the body? Is there a difference I didn't notice? It's been a long time since I've seen anything from Undertale and even less on the wiki.
Click to expand...
Yep thats what I am talking about. I think Karma can affect soul and also specifically the body which would make a lot of sense in this context
 
ShionAH said:
I am struggling to hold my insults.

So his KARMA works on soulless beings but not in a soul way?
Click to expand...
I believe KARMA is probably just a physical thing as well yeah.

Though, going back to Flowey's supposed immunity to soul manipulation via lacking a soul.

The evidence for that on the page is absolutely terrible.

So bad that if that's the only evidence I could definitely remove that right now.
 
Phoenks said:
Though, going back to Flowey's supposed immunity to soul manipulation via lacking a soul.

The evidence for that on the page is absolutely terrible.

So bad that if that's the only evidence I could definitely remove that right now.
Click to expand...
Yeah the pages explanation sucks ass

I also realized this CRT is already on the profile lmao
"KARMA is heavily implied to affect even Flowey despite he lacks a SOUL"


We should "Can ignore conventional durability with SOUL Magic" reword this to "Can ignore conventional durability with KARMA"
 
Phoenks said:
I believe KARMA is probably just a physical thing as well yeah.

Though, going back to Flowey's supposed immunity to soul manipulation via lacking a soul.

The evidence for that on the page is absolutely terrible.

So bad that if that's the only evidence I could definitely remove that right now.
Click to expand...
The justification needs to improve, but that's it really.
 
Phoenks said:
Is that the only scan that actually mentions him being soulless?
Click to expand...
We'll need a vessel to wield the monster SOULs when the time comes.
After all, a monster cannot absorb the SOULs of other monsters.
Just as a human cannot absorb a human SOUL...
So then...
What about something that's neither human nor monster?
Click to expand...
I've chosen a candidate.
I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it...
In the center of his garden, there's something special.
The first golden flower, that grew before all the others.
The flower from the outside world.
It appeared just before the queen left.
I wonder...
What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?
Click to expand...
 
Okay that seems alright.

You should make a thread changing the justification.
 
I don't think we have much reason to consider San's having resistance negation since we know that magical attacks that monsters use exist physically as well. The bones that Papyrus has saved up from battle and undyne splitting the bridge with her spear. Plus, monster bodies are made of magic so their magic being able to interact with each other even if lacking a soul makes sense. Not to mention, you can still lost fights with monsters and die as Souless Frisk. All of these things combined, I don't think gives enough support that we'd give Sans reistance negation, they're just attacking on two levels. Plus, we see the likes of Toriel able to harm flowey so Sans wouldn't be unique and all monsters would qualify for reistance negation in this case. And the most important thing here, is that you can't negate resistance when they character lacks a key attribute that would require resisting in the first place. Flowey has no soul, so no soul manipulation should work on him. Therefore, he's just dying to physical damage as seen when he's killed in Genocide Runs
 
Duedate8898 said:
I don't think we have much reason to consider San's having resistance negation since we know that magical attacks that monsters use exist physically as well. The bones that Papyrus has saved up from battle and undyne splitting the bridge with her spear. Plus, monster bodies are made of magic so their magic being able to interact with each other even if lacking a soul makes sense. Not to mention, you can still lost fights with monsters and die as Souless Frisk. All of these things combined, I don't think gives enough support that we'd give Sans reistance negation, they're just attacking on two levels. Plus, we see the likes of Toriel able to harm flowey so Sans wouldn't be unique and all monsters would qualify for reistance negation in this case. And the most important thing here, is that you can't negate resistance when they character lacks a key attribute that would require resisting in the first place. Flowey has no soul, so no soul manipulation should work on him. Therefore, he's just dying to physical damage as seen when he's killed in Genocide Runs
Click to expand...
I changed my opinion. It makes more sense KARMA is the way Sans dura negs and KARMA works on both soul and body
 
I would agree with KARMA having poison-like eftect, in a way if you are in physical contact with Sans' attacks you take rapid HP damage even if his normal attacks aren't strong enough to damage you normally. So maybe this can be some type of dura neg/damage over time thing
 
Alright so what's the overall conclusion.

Agree with KARMA change btw
 
Also, it's worth to be noted that in game there's a text "KARMA goes through your veins", like, actually affects your physical body.
 
ShionAH said:
Holy shit lol this changes a lot
Click to expand...
Make a crt or something idk what to do with this shit lmao

But, it seems like KARMA affects BOTH of your physical body and soul, also working or a sins.

So yeah...
 
ShionAH said:
Thats intresting but wouldnt this mean the whole "More sins = More damage" for sans thing is canon?
Click to expand...
I mean it would make a lot of sense.

That would add context to why he's considered the weakest monster. He would do no extra damage against those who have no sins.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean it would make a lot of sense.

That would add context to why he's considered the weakest monster. He would do no extra damage against those who have no sins.
Click to expand...
Fanon becomes canon lol. How will we use it in vsthreads though?
 
ShionAH said:
Fanon becomes canon lol. How will we use it in vsthreads though?
Click to expand...
Idk if it will be accepted let alone used in vsbw.

You'd probably need a new thread for that.

Also, I was just saying it'd make a lot of sense. But, I'm unsure it has enough evidence to be accepted here.
 
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