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Undertale and how Low tiers are handled

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StrymULTRA said:
I read a lot of "I think" and "Maybe" here.
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You can never be objective about this kinda stuff, it's (Mostly) all subjective
This just ain't it chief. Though I think the best argument is Moldsmal scaling from Frisk as they can tank their blows and harm them (given Moldsmal has 6 ATK and 0 DEF, meaning that 0 downscales from 6 here) with Frisk having equal ATK and DEF at minimal DT.
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If Moldsmal can take hits, then yeah, agree
 
Roachman40 said:
I mean them having the same statistics as their DEF (well, for glad dummy specifically) is kinda what I mean tho, both are 0 which means they dont really have any DEF or ATK at all, only being able to survive hits via HP alone. Monsters that have 0 DEF I dont think should instantly be assumed to be 9-B in durability because its really determined on HP at that point, not DEF, so to speak.
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Issue it's that they're still superior to Snowdrake's mother which can indeed damage you despite having -12 ATK.

Meaning that they definitely do upscale and have AP/Dura here.

Edit: Also them having literally 0 DEF is nonsense, as they can take hits without taking infinite damage. STATs in UT are blatantly non linear, with the higher value being superior to the lower one by an unquantifiable margin and not a literal mathematical one.
Roachman40 said:
I mean its only stated that it looks like an ordinary fridge to frisk aye? I doubt a semi-large pile of goo could reach similar weights to a fridge tbh.
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Other Amalgamates were able to modify their physiology a lot, to the point one was a bubble text. I definitely do think they can manipulate their density.
Adem_Warlock69 said:
If Moldsmal can take hits, then yeah, agree
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They can while having even a yellow name too lol.
 
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From what I'm seeing in the OP, you want to take the lowest feat the weakest creature can do, aka Frisk having 9-B durability with 0 stats, and scale it to all other monsters with comparable or higher stats.

I think that makes perfectly good sense, I agree.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Through damage stacking, not his normal ATK.
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Your comparing PER FRAME damage to standard damage, which is horrible
Sans does a raw DPS of 30 damage per second, which is significantly greater than everyone here

StrymULTRA said:
...Jotaro does from punching a lot in the Time Stop lol.
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Excet it's explicitly hax + that's more than one second over time (which we don't really allow), Sans is doing 30 damage per second via pure DPS

StrymULTRA said:
He does through KR, not ATK. Again, it does only because his attacks bypass INV unlike the other monsters. And it's even showcased with the TK, it deals only 1 damage because KR is not involved there.
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No KARMA is the damage over time affect, Sans is doing 30 dps through dps
The TK slam is a 1 and done attack, it's not like the Gaster Blasters or Bone Rush that can keep doing damage after the initial attack
 
Jason_Courne said:
Your comparing PER FRAME damage to standard damage, which is horrible
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It's how it is? You're telling me that Sans has actually 30 ATK?
Jason_Courne said:
Excet it's explicitly hax + that's more than one second over time (which we don't really allow), Sans is doing 30 damage per second via pure DPS
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Pure game mechanic territory here.
Jason_Courne said:
No KARMA is the damage over time affect, Sans is doing 30 dps through dps
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DPS is through KR, genius.
 
Sans can just negate body durability and the soul durability its not about Flowey being soulless
 
StrymULTRA said:
What do you think about this addition to Sans' dura neg?
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It should be fine, I'm not sure why we attribute Sans beating Flowey to him being on the same level, he probably killed Flowey the same way he can kill Frisk, through KR dura neg.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Can you shut the **** up about body dura neg? This ain't the CRT.
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Calm down.
ShionAH said:
Sans can just negate body durability and the soul durability its not about Flowey being soulless
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It simply works on both soulful and soulless beings, I don't think we have to assume things like KR body neg.

But that's for another thread, we should be focused on the stats.
 
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Snowdrake's Mother: 9-C scaling from her own feat.

Monsters with 0 DF/0 AT: 9-B scaling from 0 DF no DT Frisk, who can take Wall level impacts.

Sans: 9-B scaling above 0 AT/0 DF monsters.

Any Monster stronger than Sans but who are 10-B right now, like Monster Kid, should also become 9-B instead.
 
Therefir said:
Snowdrake's Mother: 9-C scaling from her own feat.

Monsters with 0 DF/0 AT: 9-B scaling from 0 DF no DT Frisk, who can take Wall level impacts.

Sans: 9-B scaling above 0 AT/0 DF monsters.

Any Monster stronger than Sans but who are 10-B right now, like Monster Kid, should also become 9-B instead.
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Some new justification:

AP: At least Street level (At least this strong due to being as big as a refrigerator. Able to scratch 1 damage on a minimally determined Frisk although this is likely due to the small amount of SOUL damage they can inflict on them)

Durability: At least Street level (Should be higher than her Attack Potency as she has a DEF of -4 compared to her ATK of -12)


AP: Wall level with Minimal Determination (Should be the same as their durability, as both their ATK and DEF have the value of 0, making them superior to Snowgrake's Mother)

Durability: Same as now

AP: Wall level (Should be the same as both Jerry and a Frisk with Minimal Determination due to having 0 ATK)

Durability: Wall level (Same as his ATK due to having 0 DEF. One-shotted by a Frisk who had enough Determination to kill later Undyne the Undying)

AP: Wall level (While he never attacks, he has 0 ATK, which makes him on par with a Frisk with Minimal Determination and superior to Snowgrake's Mother)

Durability: Same as now

AP: Wall level (Stated to be the "easiest enemy" due to having just 1 ATK, though he's still stronger than Snowgrake's Mother and a Frisk with Minimal Determination. Can move a huge amount of bones at high speed)

Durability: Wall level (Same as his Attack Potency due to both his ATK and DEF having the value of 1)

This is pretty much it.

Edit: Forgot about Monster Kid but the justification remains the same so...
 
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StrymULTRA said:
Some new justification:

AP: At least Street level (At least this strong due to being as big as a refrigerator. Able to scratch 1 damage on a minimally determined Frisk although this is likely due to the small amount of SOUL damage they can inflict on them)

Durability: At least Street level (Should be higher than her Attack Potency as she has a DEF of -4 compared to her ATK of -12)

AP: Wall level with Minimal Determination (Should be the same as their durability, as both their ATK and DEF have the value of 0, making them superior to Snowgrake's Mother)

Durability: Same as now

AP: Wall level (Should be the same as both Jerry and a Frisk with Minimal Determination due to having 0 ATK)

Durability: Wall level (Same as his ATK due to having 0 DEF. One-shotted by a Frisk who had enough Determination to kill later Undyne the Undying)

AP: Wall level (While he never attacks, he has 0 ATK, which makes him on par with a Frisk with Minimal Determination and superior to Snowgrake's Mother)

Durability: Same as above

AP: Wall level (Stated to be the "easiest enemy" due to having just 1 ATK, though he's still stronger than Snowgrake's Mother and a Frisk with Minimal Determination. Can move a huge amount of bones at high speed)

Durability: Wall level (Same as his Attack Potency due to both his ATK and DEF having the value of 1)

This is pretty much it.
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Yeah looking at this for Sans this seems like downgrade and a upgrade at the same time.
 
StrymULTRA said:
It's how it is? You're telling me that Sans has actually 30 ATK?
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Yes, because that's how much damage he does PER SECOND
You do not compare "per second" power output to something like "per MILLISECOND" power output
StrymULTRA said:
Pure game mechanic territory here.
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Ok? And Game Mechanics are canon here, and Sans is still doing a raw 30 damage per second

StrymULTRA said:
DPS is through KR, genius.
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NO, KARMA is the "poison" damage overtime affect, Sans is doing 30 Damage via raw DPS
 
I'm sorry but no, that's just attack speed not 30 damage, Sans inflicts 1 damage per frame, that's why it appears as 30 damage per second, as Undertale runs at 30 fps, but that's still just 1 damage.

Even the Check information states he can only do 1 damage.
 
Therefir said:
I'm sorry but no, that's just attack speed not 30 damage, Sans inflicts 1 damage per frame, that's why it appears as 30 damage per second, as Undertale runs at 30 fps, but that's still just 1 damage.
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That's like saying 1 megawatt per microsecond is weaker than a 10 megawatts because 10 > 1
 
StrymULTRA said:
Cool, so Sans > Papyrus through pure AP despite everything else saying otherwise?
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Yes, he does far more damage and can kill a far far FAR higher leveled "Frisk" in literal seconds
It's literally the joke "haha funny skeleton, he's so weak! He only does 1 damage per frame!"

and KARMA is a completely separate game mechanic from Sans's raw AP
 
This is just going to go in circles.
StrymULTRA said:
Some new justification:

AP: At least Street level (At least this strong due to being as big as a refrigerator. Able to scratch 1 damage on a minimally determined Frisk although this is likely due to the small amount of SOUL damage they can inflict on them)

Durability: At least Street level (Should be higher than her Attack Potency as she has a DEF of -4 compared to her ATK of -12)

AP: Wall level with Minimal Determination (Should be the same as their durability, as both their ATK and DEF have the value of 0, making them superior to Snowgrake's Mother)

Durability: Same as now

AP: Wall level (Should be the same as both Jerry and a Frisk with Minimal Determination due to having 0 ATK)

Durability: Wall level (Same as his ATK due to having 0 DEF. One-shotted by a Frisk who had enough Determination to kill later Undyne the Undying)

AP: Wall level (While he never attacks, he has 0 ATK, which makes him on par with a Frisk with Minimal Determination and superior to Snowgrake's Mother)

Durability: Same as now

AP: Wall level (Stated to be the "easiest enemy" due to having just 1 ATK, though he's still stronger than Snowgrake's Mother and a Frisk with Minimal Determination. Can move a huge amount of bones at high speed)

Durability: Wall level (Same as his Attack Potency due to both his ATK and DEF having the value of 1)

This is pretty much it.

Edit: Forgot about Monster Kid but the justification remains the same so...
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@DemonGodMitchAubin @CrimsonStarFallen @Ultima_Reality How does this looks for the new justifications?
 
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