Undertale and how Low tiers are handled

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[Bendynoah10]

i mean i don't see a problem
i always found it odd that sans was 9-A tbh.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Sans doing 30 damage, is completely separate from INV frames
INV frames only affect Frisk's ability to take damage, not Sans's ability to give it

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's like I am talking with walls now...

 

[Jason_Courne]

It's like I am talking with walls now...

INV frames do NOT MATTER when it comes to Sans capacity to deal damage, INV frames only influence how much damage Frisk takes, not how much ATK the opponent has

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans never takes 30 HP with a single bone attack, he stacks the damage, this is the difference.

 

[Bendynoah10]

No it's still straight up AP, he does a raw 30 damage per second

KARMA is separate from Sans's raw DPS, and is its own method of damage over time

he does not do that much damage that is goofy
it stacks sans does 1 damage but every attack he does stacks
funny bone man just aint that guy buddy

 

[Jason_Courne]

he does not do that much damage that is goofy

He does 1 damage per frame

 

[Jason_Courne]

Sans never takes 30 HP with a single bone attack, he stacks the damage, this is the difference.

He takes 30 HP per second, without the use of any hax, that is the amount of damage he deals within a single second

 

[StrymULTRA]

He does 1 damage per frame

And?

 

[Jason_Courne]

And?

He's doing 30 damage via raw DPS

 

[Bendynoah10]

He takes 30 HP per second, without the use of any hax, that is the amount of damage he deals within a single second

that just sounds like stacking because as you said yourself he does one damage a frame therefore
he just stacks damage fast

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which is hax.

 

[StrymULTRA]

that just sounds like stacking because as you said yourself he does one damage a second therefore
he just stacks damage fast

Just leave the dude in their world, no one is agreeing with them anyway.

 

[Bendynoah10]

Just leave the dude in their world, no one is agreeing with them anyway.

k

 

[Jason_Courne]

that just sounds like stacking because as you said yourself he does one damage a frame therefore

Yes it's called DPS, as in Damage dealt within the timeframe of a singular second

 

[Jason_Courne]

Which is hax.

Except INV frames have absolutely no affect on Sans's ability to deal damage, only Frisk's ability to negate it

 

[thetechmaster36]

Yes it's called DPS, as in Damage dealt within the timeframe of a singular second

DPS has no bearing on AP, it just means you can do that much damage in a one-second timeframe.

X character can throw 50 punches in 1 second, and his regular punches are 1 megaton, but does that mean they scale to 50 megatons? No, it just means that they can throw 50 punches that are 1 megaton in 1 second. The additive force may be 50 megatons, but they don't scale to it because they used a lot of punches to get to that result.

Same thing for Sans here. His attacks each do one damage, but because they do one damage every single frame, he can knock off 30 HP in a second because of a lack of INV frames. That doesn't mean he scales to that value, though, that's just the effect of his attacks.

 

[Jason_Courne]

DPS has no bearing on AP, it just means you can do that much damage in a one-second timeframe.

Except Sans is so powerful due to the sheer amount of damage he can deal within a single second
That and we will downgrade feats if they were overtime, as we mostly scale people on their per second energy output

And also the Gaster Blasters are just a singular beam

 

[StrymULTRA]

Except INV frames have absolutely no affect on Sans's ability to deal damage, only Frisk's ability to negate it

Durability Negation.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Durability Negation.

No, that's Attack Negation Negation, as in the negation of the negation of attacks
INV frames are not durability, they simply negate attacks from hitting Frisk, aka Attack Negation
INV frames give Frisk Attack Negation, so Sans negating INV frames are Attack Negation Negation not Durability Negation, but that's for another thread to deal with

It would be durability negation if Sans just straight up killed Frisk instantly

INV frame negation have absolutely no bearing on Sans doing 30 damage, it just means "Frisk" will take all of that 30 damage

 

[StrymULTRA]

It would be durability negation if Sans just straight up killed Frisk instantly

No

 

[Jason_Courne]

No

Yes, either that or something like KARMA, which deals damage outside of raw attack power. That is what durability negation is

At worst this is Invulnerability negation, but NOWHERE near Durability Negation, even then neither of those hax actually counteract Sans doing a raw 30 damage

 

[StrymULTRA]

Durability Negation does not one shot without feats lol.

That's the thing.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Durability Negation does not one shot without feats lol.

Durability negation, the ability to negate durability

Sans still has to attack you to deal damage

 

[StrymULTRA]

Durability negation, the ability to negate durability

Sans still has to attack you to deal damage

It's still not one shotting without feats.

 

[Deidalius]

9-B 0 DEF sounds reasonable to me. I am in favor of this change.

 

[Imaginym]

Sans's attacks, excluding Karma, deal 1 damage per frame of contact.
Undertale runs at 30 frames per second.
Don't we often measure AP/Striking Strenth by output per second, as shown when we consider timeframes for calculations?

As mentioned, KARMA is the purple, poison-like effect, which has its own timer system in the gameplay, & which is described as something they can feel or felt.
INV is Invulnerability/Invincibility frames. Frames that the SOUL has after being hit by an attack where it is temporarily invulnerable to attacks. IIRC.

Sans attacks ignore INV frames, HOWEVER, the speed at which KARMA drains (Dealing damage as it drains) is influenced by INV. More INV makes it drain more slowly.
AFAIK, INV frames aren't relevant for Sans's other attacks.

So do we not measure the power as per second?

I mean, Sans's bones, & thus, his actual power is technically just 1 per 30th of a second OF CONTACT.

I was mostly talking about Chara,
Frisk gets determined by the most basic things, I think the training would have gotten them pretty determined tbh

That's pretty much headcanon with 0 basis, you're being overly nitpicky here.

It was only a cooking session with Undyne, not a fighting training lmao.

Regarding the matters in these quoted posts, I'm with Adem.

Frisk does get Determined over basic things, as shown exhaustively by the Save Points.

SAVE Point

This is a SAVE point. It's the manifestation of your own DETERMINATION. Undertale Demo instruction manual A SAVE Point is a place where the protagonist can SAVE the game. Interacting with a SAVE Point fully restores HP and usually expresses the protagonist's current thoughts and determination...

undertale.fandom.com

Spoiler: An incomplete list of things that fill Frisk with Determination:

Playfully crinkling through leaves.
Knowing the mouse might one day leave its hole and get the cheese
The convenience of a lamp
Knowing the mouse might one day find a way to heat up the spaghetti
The "simple fact" that "Snow can always be broken down and rebuilt into something more useful.".
Knowing the mouse might one day extract the cheese from the mystical crystal
The sound of muffled rain on the cavetop
The wooshing sound of steam and cogs
The smell of cobwebs filling the air

Based on the mundanity of things that fill Frisk with Determination, I could believe that Undyne's intensive cooking lesson (With the violence on the fruit, intense stirring, etc.) would fill them with Determination, especially when this is so comparatively intense.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Don't we often measure AP/Striking Strenth by output per second, as shown when we consider timeframes for calculations?

You're now saying that Sans has more AP than Papyrus. Gotcha.

Frisk does get Determined over basic things, as shown exhaustively by the Save Points.

Not on a fighting degree.

 

[Imaginym]

You're now saying that Sans has more AP than Papyrus. Gotcha.

In a technical sense, when accounting for how we measure it, yes.
But only in the sense that we often measure output per second & Sans does 1 damage per frame of contact in a 30 frames per second game.
(& his attacks don't always make contact for all 30 frames anyway.)

Not on a fighting degree.

All of those are from Save Points. Determination restores Frisks HP, & we accept that Determination amplifies Frisks's stats.
Hopes & Dreams, IIRC, are also generated by Determination in Asriel's battle & also both restore HP.

Almost all of them heal Frisk fully & use the SAME phrasing, that being "fills you with Determination" implying that the Determination providing from playing in the leaves or thinking about mice eating cheese is little different from the Determination providing from the shadow of the ruins looming above or the elevator to the King's castle.

I'd say it's quite clear ALL of those mundane things fill Frisk with Determination in a fighting manner.

Even if how Determined Frisk becomes varies throughout the route, their in-game stats -The crux of this CRT- never change throughout the Pacifist Route.

"The relaxing atmosphere of this hotel... it fills you with determination."

They're fully healed by that, their stats unchanged, despite that wouldn't Hotland level Determination Frisk should be strong.

Perhaps earlier things provide them less Determination, but the phrasing doesn't imply that, the context doesn't often imply that (Ex: "Seeing such a cute, tidy house in the RUINS gives you determination." )

Frisk is definitely stronger with Determination, & the amount provided may differ at points according to how we rate Frisk at different points throughout the route, but all the SAVE Point things fill them with Determination sufficiently to heal them to full HP, something essential for battle, healing being something Determination like that found in the Asriel battle, & the description of the Determination providing being uniform, in my opinion means that if such mundane things fill them with Determination, which is surely in a fighting-relevant degree, then surely Undyne's intense cooking lesson would definitely also fill them with Determination!

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Agreed with Strym.

 

[Imaginym]

Agreed with Strym.

Forgive my asking, please, but would you be willing to clarify about which matters?

This thread is over 150 posts &, call me selfish or obstinate, but the post immediately prior to yours was mine responding to Strym about a matter in this thread.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Forgive my asking, please, but would you be willing to clarify about which matters?

This thread is over 150 posts &, call me selfish or obstinate, but the post immediately prior to yours was mine responding to Strym about a matter in this thread.

I read it. I don't agree with your assessment at all, because you are focusing on the "per second" aspect too much. Sans is doing the equivalent of multiple different attacks at once. But his individual attacks is what we would measure, which would be Atk value 1. That's why I agree with Strym, pretty much on everything.

 

[ShionAH]

Sorry guys sans is NOT dealing 30 damage.

 

[Imaginym]

I read it. I don't agree with your assessment at all, because you are focusing on the "per second" aspect too much. Sans is doing the equivalent of multiple different attacks at once. But his individual attacks is what we would measure, which would be Atk value 1.

Despite that it would be 1 bone -Not multiple of them- hitting 30 times, across a period of contact in time?

That's why I agree with Strym, pretty much on everything.

Including on the matter of if Frisk could be assumed to be Determined or not as a result of Undyne's cooking lesson considering the history of what makes Frisk Determined?

Regardless of your answers, thank you for clarifying.

 

[ShionAH]

Despite that it would be 1 bone -Not multiple of them- hitting 30 times, across a period of contact in time?

I heard Gaster blasters deal 10 damage because of them staying in the place

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Despite that it would be 1 bone -Not multiple of them- hitting 30 times, across a period of contact in time?

Correct. Think of it like a tornado, which applies energy over time. We would only measure the initial output and that's it. The initial output of Sans' attacks are Atk value 1. That's what we measure.

Including on the matter of if Frisk could be assumed to be Determined or not as a result of Undyne's cooking lesson considering the history of what makes Frisk Determined?

Without a direct statement, I would take your theory with a pinch of salt by how UT works in the first place. They always give direct mention of the things Frisk gets determined from. They didn't mention this got them determined, why assume it did?

 

[ShionAH]

Without a direct statement, I would take your theory with a pinch of salt by how UT works in the first place. They always give direct mention of the things Frisk gets determined from. They didn't mention this got them determined, why assume it did?

Tbh frisk getting determined from a literal mouse kinda makes it stupid to assume they wouldnt be determined to be friends with Undyne the person that wants to kill them the most

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Tbh frisk getting determined from a literal mouse kinda makes it stupid to assume they wouldnt be determined to be friends with Undyne the person that wants to kill them the most

Not my point. The game didn't say it, I don't agree with applying speculation to the profile. Simple as that.

 

[Imaginym]

Correct. Think of it like a tornado, which applies energy over time. We would only measure the initial output and that's it. The initial output of Sans' attacks are Atk value 1. That's what we measure.

This makes sense. Thank you.

Without a direct statement, I would take your theory with a pinch of salt by how UT works in the first place. They always give direct mention of the things Frisk gets determined from. They didn't mention this got them determined, why assume it did?

Because many of the things Frisk becomes Determined from are -or seem- much more mundane & much less intense than Undyne's cooking lesson. & Frisk also becomes Determined from more intense things. (Like the ominous shadows of the looming ruins, the elevator to the king & other things.)

My opinion is that Frisk is characterized with a seemingly very low intensity/non-mundanity threshold to become Determined, so it would be reasonable for them to become Determined there.