Shin's failures at life aka downgrade him bruh

[Monkey_Dunno]

The anime shows him using Kyubi's chakra to block it

Gaiden Arc isn’t accurately adapted into the Anime, and Base Naruto borrowing Kurama's chakra isn't 6PSM level, not even KM level; so it's still circular.

 

[Ped2018]

Naruto Gaiden ch 6

Ok, just wanted to check because the scan is pretty low quality, and the viz translation is different

 

[Stryker861]

Gaiden Arc isn’t accurately adapted into the Anime, and Base Naruto borrowing Kurama's chakra isn't 6PSM level, not even KM level; so it's still circular.

Naruto is 5b with or without kurama

 

[Godernet]

Ok, just wanted to check because the scan is pretty low quality, and the viz translation is different

yeah that's why I figured a translation check was needed.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

, and Base Naruto borrowing Kurama's chakra isn't 6PSM leve

 

[Godernet]

Gaiden Arc isn’t accurately adapted into the Anime, and Base Naruto borrowing Kurama's chakra isn't 6PSM level, not even KM level; so it's still circular.

Base Naruto has feats fighting with 5-Bs (Kinshiki and Base Momo) so there's nothing circular about it. KM is just higher into 5-B and SPSM is even higher.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Naruto is 5b with or without kurama

This isn’t about Naruto being or not 5-B, is that Shin scaling around Naruto is invalid.

 

[Stryker861]

This isn’t about Naruto being or not 5-B, is that Shin scaling around Naruto is invalid.

Shin harmed sasuke bruh

 

[Damage3245]

Base Naruto has feats fighting with 5-Bs (Kinshiki and Base Momo) so there's nothing circular about it. KM is just higher into 5-B and SPSM is even higher.

That's a different Naruto. Stop relying on that version of Naruto.

 

[Stryker861]

That's a different Naruto. Stop relying on that version of Naruto.

Nothing changed about these narutos except that the momo arc one was even weaker

 

[Nierre]

Gaiden Arc isn’t accurately adapted into the Anime

? The anime is considered canon like the manga. More importantly they literally show the same thing except one is colored and one isn't

 

[CloverDragon03]

Having read through this, I think those on the disagreeing side make more sense to me, so I disagree with this

 

[Godernet]

That's a different Naruto. Stop relying on that version of Naruto.

that's a Naruto from 6 months later, and we are given plenty of insight into Naruto's life in that era to know he does nothing but his Hokage duties to warrant any significant of strength boost.

Not to mention Naruto's been 5-B since the End of Shippuden.

It would be completely unfounded to assume Naruto's strength has a massive drop-off from that level of power for this arc only and that he not only reaches those levels again in the Momo Arc but surpasses them in his Base form despite him not training.

 

[KingogKings777]

that's a Naruto from 6 months later, and we are given plenty of insight into Naruto's life in that era to know he does nothing but his Hokage duties to warrant any significant of strength boost.

We know he's rusty, and they are not at their top game. We have the statements from the characters them selves that prove this.

Not to mention Naruto's been 5-B since the End of Shippuden.

Naruto is unknown in base till the Momo fight. Where he gains it the 5-B rating. Same as Sasuke. They only game the base 5-B from Momo arc.

It would be completely unfounded to assume Naruto's strength has a massive drop-off from that level of power for this arc only and that he not only reaches those levels again in the Momo Arc but surpasses them in his Base form despite him not training.

It's not unfounded. It's why it should be unknown.

 

[KingogKings777]

Having read through this, I think those on the disagreeing side make more sense to me, so I disagree with this

What part makes sense out of curioisty?

 

[Godernet]

We know he's rusty, and they are not at their top game. We have the statements from the characters them selves that prove this.

Rusty doesn't mean massively weaker.

Naruto is unknown in base till the Momo fight. Where he gains it the 5-B rating. Same as Sasuke. They only game the base 5-B from Momo arc.

that's not how that works. characters can back scale if there's enough narrative implication/reasoning to put them on that level. which is the case here.

And even then Shin damaged SOSP KCM Naruto who's been 5-B since Shippuden and has only gotten stronger since then so this argument doesn't matter anyways.

It's not unfounded. It's why it should be unknown.

yeah no

 

[CloverDragon03]

What part makes sense out of curioisty?

I mean if I fully elaborated I'd essentially be parroting Duedate's arguments, so theirs should be a good reference for what I make of this

 

[KingogKings777]

The surprised attack angle only works if Naruto as a series has shown that characters have different durabilities depending on whether or not they're surprised, but I don't think there's much evidence for such a thing.

Here are a couple of people being caught off guard and damaged. AKA the most famous ones. We also have statements from the characters themselves saying they were weakened or not at their peak.

And past that, Naruto was on guard when he was attacked, he just got surprised by the angle of said attack, so I struggle to see even more why we would treat his durability as something that is drastically lowered.

Disagree, as evidenced by the "?!" from Naruto and the scans above. Unless you want to make the claim that they all scale to the people they caught off guard.

Shin can consistently be weaker and even stomped, but still scale.

How do you scale someone to planet level if they are weaker?

That's why we have stuff like the At Most rating. Shin is weaker for sure, but he's not weak enough that he can't harm them is the point.

The only time it happened was when Naruto was off guard, though.

 

[SlendVeny]

the context of convo is talking about what defines a splendid shinobi.

Oh. Still an L for Naruto.

 

[Godernet]

Here are a couple of people being caught off guard and damaged. AKA the most famous ones. We also have statements from the characters themselves saying they were weakened or not at their peak.

None of those people have a chakra cloak constantly protecting them.

That would be like saying Sasuke's Susanoo can be instantly shattered by anyone if he's not paying attention to every attack that hits it.

Disagree, as evidenced by the "?!" from Naruto and the scans above.

Naruto shortly before the attack tells Sasuke to remain on guard. With Sasuke telling him to watch the Kids. I doubt he would be completely off guard when there are kids to protect. If anything he wasn't expecting Sasuke's sword to hit him but he was definitely prepared for an enemy.

How do you scale someone to planet level if they are weaker?

Because they can be downscaled from Naruto/Sasuke's value. you can be weaker than someone and still in the same tier. We see Naruto's Massive Rasengan oneshot Fused Momo yet they're both 5-B.

The only time it happened was when Naruto was off guard, though.

And to Sasuke.

 

[Testarossa002]

Naruto shortly before the attack tells Sasuke to remain on guard. With Sasuke telling him to watch the Kids. I doubt he would be completely off guard when there are kids to protect. If anything he wasn't expecting Sasuke's sword to hit him but he was definitely prepared for an enemy.

Yh this
It's not as if Naruto was eating ramen somewhere and was stabbed
He was in full combat mode and was hit from a direction he wasn't expecting

 

[KingogKings777]

None of those people have a chakra cloak constantly protecting them.

All of them are caught off guard though, and they all normally scale to peak versions of the character they fighting. Before a weaker character dabs on them by catching them off guard. Unless you believe that they should scale regardless of outliers and stuff.

Naruto shortly before the attack tells Sasuke to remain on guard. With Sasuke telling him to watch the Kids. I doubt he would be completely off guard when there are kids to protect. If anything he wasn't expecting Sasuke's sword to hit him but he was definitely prepared for an enemy.

Hey that's weird before we were using the official scans but now we using fan translations?

Makes ya think.

Because they can be downscaled from Naruto/Sasuke's value. you can be weaker than someone and still in the same tier. We see Naruto's Massive Rasengan oneshot Fused Momo yet they're both 5-B.

Cause they have standards for being 5-B unlike Shin here.

And to Sasuke.

And conveniently we use a different Sasuke's rating for this weakened Sasuke. Doesn't add up scaling wise unless you ignore all logic.

 

[KingogKings777]

If you want to scale Shin to 5-B that badly just use Sakura punching Kaguya. Since it would be more consistent than using the future ratings from the Momo fight.

 

[Stryker861]

All of them are caught off guard though, and they all normally scale to peak versions of the character they fighting. Before a weaker character dabs on them by catching them off guard. Unless you believe that they should scale regardless of outliers and stuff.

Hey that's weird before we were using the official scans but now we using fan translations?

Makes ya think.

Cause they have standards for being 5-B unlike Shin here.

And conveniently we use a different Sasuke's rating for this weakened Sasuke. Doesn't add up scaling wise unless you ignore all logic.

Naruto is still saying that they should be careful. Naruto is protecting the children so he still would be wary of attacks that shin might pull. Hes oviously not just in a daze or has his mind wandering.

 

[Godernet]

All of them are caught off guard though, and they all normally scale to peak versions of the character they fighting. Before a weaker character dabs on them by catching them off guard. Unless you believe that they should scale regardless of outliers and stuff.

Those characters are irrelevant because their circumstances are very different from Naruto being constantly shielded by a chakra cloak.

Hey that's weird before we were using the official scans but now we using fan translations?

Makes ya think.

This translation is even worse for you because Sasuke tells Naruto to protect the kids and he responds with "I know. You be careful yourself" meaning Naruto is already well aware that he needs to be on guard to protect the kids before Sasuke even said anything.

Both translations use different verbiage to get the same point across anyways so this point of yours is irrelevant.

Cause they have standards for being 5-B unlike Shin here.

Teen SOSP Naruto, who is 5-B even at this stage, gets smacked with a Chidori by EoS Sasuke(also 5-B) from an angle he wasn't expecting before he could guard or block and takes no substantial damage.

A stronger Adult SOSP Naruto is on guard already to protect these two kids(one of which is Sasuke's daughter) and is attacked from an angle he wasn't expecting and gets pierced.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

And conveniently we use a different Sasuke's rating for this weakened Sasuke. Doesn't add up scaling wise unless you ignore all logic.

Considering you still haven't made a good argument for why Weakened Sasuke can't be 5-B and the majority of staff already disagree I'd say it's pretty logical.

 

[Stryker861]

Cant spell godernet without a W

 

[Deceived3596]

Cant spell godernet without a W

You just did

 

[CloverDragon03]

If you want to scale Shin to 5-B that badly just use Sakura punching Kaguya. Since it would be more consistent than using the future ratings from the Momo fight.

Tbh I never understood why that was just dismissed as an outlier

 

[Stryker861]

You just did

No

 

[SlendVeny]

Tbh I never understood why that was just dismissed as an outlier

Probably some kind of issue with her earlier feats? To be fair, she did have the confidence to try to jump Madara before, although she only lived on account of regen.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Probably some kind of issue with her earlier feats? To be fair, she did have the confidence to try to jump Madara before, although she only lived on account of regen.

Meh, discussion for another time, one which I certainly have my opinions on

 

[Godernet]

Tbh I never understood why that was just dismissed as an outlier

Meh, I mean it's definitely harder to advocate for with her earlier War Arc feats.

Meh, discussion for another time, one which I certainly have my opinions on

Imma definitely need to hear this eventually. I've honestly never seen someone try to make a defense case for 5-B EoS Sakura before.

 

[Stryker861]

Same

 

[KingogKings777]

Tbh I never understood why that was just dismissed as an outlier

Just make a CRT for it and when that one passes make another for Shin to scale him off that.

Also, to any mods that agreed to keep the ranking but agreed that the justification is dog water? How do you keep the current ranking when you just agreed that the justification is dog water? Does that not invalidate the ranking you gave the character and is now solely based on feelings instead of facts and evidence presented by the opposing side?

 

[Godernet]

Also, to any mods that agreed to keep the ranking but agreed that the justification is dog water? How do you keep the current ranking when you just agreed that the justification is dog water? Does that not invalidate the ranking you gave the character and is now solely based on feelings instead of facts and evidence presented by the opposing side?

no one said the justification was awful. like Shadow said, it's just misleading and needs to be reworded.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, to any mods that agreed to keep the ranking but agreed that the justification is dog water? How do you keep the current ranking when you just agreed that the justification is dog water? Does that not invalidate the ranking you gave the character and is now solely based on feelings instead of facts and evidence presented by the opposing side?

Uh... You change the justification?

 

[KingogKings777]

Uh... You change the justification?

To what though?

 

[Godernet]

Planet level with Mangekyō Sharingan (Injured New Era Sasuke and Sakura with metal controlled by his MS, could also manipulate Sasuke's sword into piercing New Era SPSM Naruto's chakra cloak[59])

 

[SlendVeny]

Meh, I mean it's definitely harder to advocate for with her earlier War Arc feats.

Imma definitely need to hear this eventually. I've honestly never seen someone try to make a defense case for 5-B EoS Sakura before.

I mean, MAYBE we could argue that Byakugo is an especially high amp for her, considering her willingness to fight Juubidara, her still being up to fight after getting impaled by him, and her punching of Kaguya. That said, doubt that could count.

 

[KingogKings777]

Those characters are irrelevant because their circumstances are very different from Naruto being constantly shielded by a chakra cloak.

How is being caught of guard irrelevant to the discussion? It provides proof that characters can wound people they normally can't when they are caught off guard.

This translation is even worse for you because Sasuke tells Naruto to protect the kids and he responds with "I know. You be careful yourself" meaning Naruto is already well aware that he needs to be on guard to protect the kids before Sasuke even said anything.
Both translations use different verbiage to get the same point across anyways so this point of yours is irrelevant.

Get raws.

Teen SOSP Naruto, who is 5-B even at this stage, gets smacked with a Chidori by EoS Sasuke(also 5-B) from an angle he wasn't expecting before he could guard or block and takes no substantial damage.

As shown in the scans used for caught off guard, Naruto is not caught off guard in the situation you're talking about. So your point here is irrelevant and moot.

A stronger Adult SOSP Naruto is on guard already to protect these two kids(one of which is Sasuke's daughter) and is attacked from an angle he wasn't expecting and gets pierced.

So you just admitted he was caught off guard by Sasuke's own sword. Great thanks for playing.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

Only if you ignore the facts would it seem straightforward. Like ignoring all instances of being caught off guard and saying a weaker Sasuke is the same as a stronger Sasuke.

Considering you still haven't made a good argument for why Weakened Sasuke can't be 5-B and the majority of staff already disagree I'd say it's pretty logical.

I think it's the other way around. Noone here has provided any good reason for why a weaker Sasuke should scale to his stronger self or provided evidence Naruto wasn't caught off guard.