Shin's failures at life aka downgrade him bruh

[MinatoSparkle]

I have gone far too long without seeing GokuSparkle in a thread. I need to start more Naruto VS Debates.

Really? I've been in quite a few threads

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Btw haven't read all the messages so idk if the Sasuke's durability thing has been resolved but I'm just gonna leave this here

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That then disproves that they are equal if he's the strongest, does it not? Since we now have to conflicting statements. 1 being that Naruto and Sasuke are equal or Sasuke being the strongest.

its less that they are literal equals and more that they are relative.

 

[KingogKings777]

its less that they are literal equals and more that they are relative.

Okay so we have evidence that they are equal and relative for Momo's arc.

 

[KingogKings777]

and can you present any evidence that Sasuke's durability improved massively in that time?

I've already provided evidence that Sasuke was weaker.

Naruto can make himself more durable than Kurama's chakra cloak's innate durability that's not an argument. Even Base Naruto can take attacks from 5-Bs.

So you saying Naruto purposely weakened himself to get caught off guard?

the matter of time doesn't matter. He did it once to Sasuke and once to Naruto. feats are feats I'm afraid.

Yes the matter of times does matter when the MS ability could not previously do it, but when he's caught off guard, he suddenly can? That is the definition of an outlier if you choose to ignore the off-guard shit. You are claiming that Shin can now harm someone who he previously couldn't.

Sasuke without a Rinnegan is still 5-B.

This reason is ass, and you know it.

At most Planet level (Comparable to his attack potency)

There's no justification at all for it other than (Comparable to his attack potency).

"this is taking too long"
he's been actively taking chakra but is surprised there is so much.

If he was actively taking chakra, we would have seen chakra pills. Also, love how the next page gets ignored of Naruto going I just like making shit hard for you.

why would we use a rating of a Sasuke from 10 years ago over one from 6 months ago? be fr

Why would we use a stronger Sasuke's rating for a weaker one?

stop

Get a better argument. Naruto in that moment, wasn't caught off guard. To say that Shin catching Naruto off guard is stronger than that Sasuke is asinine.

you can when there's no implication they've gotten any stronger.

There is, though. Sasuke when fighting Shin the first time is weakened.

there's no way you think Sasuke's durability getting hundreds of times better in 6 months is more logical. I refuse to believe you actually think that lol

No I think Sasuke's durability went up when he regained his chakra and that its nuts to say a weaker Sasuke = Sasuke that fought momo.

 

[KingogKings777]

I disagree because of the opposition's reasons; I also say improve the justifications.

Yeah, I'm on board with that idea too, disagree with downgrades but agree with justification change.

But as shown, we have Shin's MS not able to penetrate or harm Naruto without catching him off guard.


By this sites own definition it would be the definition of an outlier if the caught off guard stuff is ignored seeing as it's out of his normal paygrade with MS. And fills two of the requirements to be labeled as one.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

And we know that Sasuke is weakened from the amount of Tomes in his eye, which shows how much chakra he has.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I honestly never agreed with Tier 5 scaling to anyone other than the actual god-tiers of the verse, that being the Otsutsukis, Sasuke and Naruto solely because of this and many other factors contributing to the whole Momoshiki scaling scandal. Agree with the downgrade.

Same thing here.

 

[SlendVeny]

But as shown, we have Shin's MS not able to penetrate or harm Naruto without catching him off guard.

It still scales above weakened Base Naruto.

 

[Godernet]

I've already provided evidence that Sasuke was weaker.

you haven't proven he's tiers weaker.

So you saying Naruto purposely weakened himself to get caught off guard?

now you're just reaching. how did you get "Naruto is weakening himself intentionally" from "Naruto can increase his durability further than the passive protection Kurama's chakra gives him."

Yes the matter of times does matter when the MS ability could not previously do it, but when he's caught off guard, he suddenly can? That is the definition of an outlier if you choose to ignore the off-guard shit. You are claiming that Shin can now harm someone who he previously couldn't.

He damaged Naruto and Sasuke. two instances. Their blocking an attack is not evidence that the attack can't harm them especially when we clearly see it can.

This reason is ass, and you know it.

not really, even Base Naruto has 5-B feats at this point.

If he was actively taking chakra, we would have seen chakra pills. Also, love how the next page gets ignored of Naruto going I just like making shit hard for you.

I posted a picture of him actively taking chakra stop ignoring evidence for the sake of an agenda. Naruto saying "we Ninja don't like to make things easy" does not mean he's stopping Momo from taking any of it.

Especially when the previous page is Momo complaining that there's so much chakra, not that it's hard to get any chakra out of him. Naruto being an asshole to the guy that captured him isn't proof of anything.

Why would we use a stronger Sasuke's rating for a weaker one?

You're suggesting we use the rating of a Sasuke from 14 years ago rather than one from 6 months later.

Get a better argument. Naruto in that moment, wasn't caught off guard. To say that Shin catching Naruto off guard is stronger than that Sasuke is asinine.

I asked you to prove he was on guard and you basically said I have no idea.

There is, though. Sasuke when fighting Shin the first time is weakened.

until you can prove that a Sasuke with unquantifiably less chakra isn't 5-B this doesn't really matter.

No I think Sasuke's durability went up when he regained his chakra and that its nuts to say a weaker Sasuke = Sasuke that fought momo.

no one said they were equal. but you have yet to prove why Sasuke would be many times less durable because he's unquantifiably weaker. Even weakened he's still relative to Naruto who's 5-B in Base.

 

[SlendVeny]

5-B in Base.

5-B in weakened Base!

 

[KingogKings777]

you haven't proven he's tiers weaker.

I've proved he's unknown and weaker already I've provided the scans and reasoning.

now you're just reaching. how did you get "Naruto is weakening himself intentionally" from "Naruto can increase his durability further than the passive protection Kurama's chakra gives him."

No reaching would be saying a weaker Sasuke is as strong as his strongest Sasuke which you are doing. I'm Just going off the logic you providing.

He damaged Naruto and Sasuke. two instances. Their blocking an attack is not evidence that the attack can't harm them especially when we clearly see it can.

And as stated, Naruto was off guard, and Sasuke was weakened. We acting like chakra doesn't buff stats at all and catching people off guard doesn't exist.

not really, even Base Naruto has 5-B feats at this point.

Base Naruto is unknown also and relies on future scaling to get his base form to 5-B. Now you're trying to do what is done to Sasuke for Naruto. It's illogical scaling.

I posted a picture of him actively taking chakra stop ignoring evidence for the sake of an agenda. Naruto saying "we Ninja don't like to make things easy" does not mean he's stopping Momo from taking any of it.

Stop ignoring evidence that you haven't provided?

Do we not see what happens when he takes chakra from someone? We do? Huh weird something doesn't match with your scan.

Wait, where are the pills that show he took chakra from Naruto? They no exist here so what does that tell? Something that's more plausible than what you said.

Especially when the previous page is Momo complaining that there's so much chakra, not that it's hard to get any chakra out of him. Naruto being an asshole to the guy that captured him isn't proof of anything.

So ignorance of evidence now? Great.

You're suggesting we use the rating of a Sasuke from 14 years ago rather than one from 6 months later.

I'm using the unknown Sasuke to give a weakened Sasuke an unknown rating instead of giving him the rating of when he's stronger than the current one.

I asked you to prove he was on guard and you basically said I have no idea.

Maybe the lack of the symbol for off guard gives it away or reading the scans IDK. Take your pick it's up to you.

until you can prove that a Sasuke with unquantifiably less chakra isn't 5-B this doesn't really matter.

I have already did so though. You just don't agree with it.

no one said they were equal. but you have yet to prove why Sasuke would be many times less durable because he's unquantifiably weaker. Even weakened he's still relative to Naruto who's 5-B in Base.

He's not using Susanoo and he doesn't have any planet-level durability feats here.

 

[SlendVeny]

No reaching would be saying a weaker Sasuke is as strong as his strongest Sasuke which you are doing. I'm Just going off the logic you providing.

He should at least be as strong as Part 2 Sasuke, right?

Base Naruto is unknown also and relies on future scaling to get his base form to 5-B.

Again, WEAKENED and INJURED base form.

Do we not see what happens when he takes chakra from someone? We do? Huh weird something doesn't match with your scan.

Wait, where are the pills that show he took chakra from Naruto? They no exist here so what does that tell? Something that's more plausible than what you said.

That's what happens when he takes chakra from someone who can't fight back.

So ignorance of evidence now? Great.

That's not what that is.

Maybe the lack of the symbol for off guard gives it away or reading the scans IDK. Take your pick it's up to you.

-_- that's not how being on guard works.

I have already did so though. You just don't agree with it.

BECAUSE IT IS WRONG.

He's not using Susanoo and he doesn't have any planet-level durability feats here.

Characters' Dura scales to the force of their AP.

 

[KingogKings777]

He should at least be as strong as Part 2 Sasuke, right?

Guess what part is and what I've been saying this whole time? Unknown.

Again, WEAKENED and INJURED base form.

In the future not this one in question. Part 2 naruto in base is unknown.

That's what happens when he takes chakra from someone who can't fight back.

And it proves that he didn't take any chakra from Naruto or he took so little chakra it couldn't form the pills.

That's not what that is.

Kinda is.

-_- that's not how being on guard works.

*Stares at the examples that disprove you
Huh?

BECAUSE IT IS WRONG.

Then provide better reasoning for why it's wrong.

Characters' Dura scales to the force of their AP.

Why would Sasuke scale to his AP in this moment?

 

[Godernet]

He should at least be as strong as Part 2 Sasuke, right?

Characters' Dura scales to the force of their AP.

tbf, End of Shippuden Sasuke has an unknown rating in striking strength and durability for being featless.

I might have to go make a thread to fix that at this point.

 

[KingogKings777]

tbf, End of Shippuden Sasuke has an unknown rating in striking strength and durability for being featless.

I might have to go make a thread to fix that at this point.

Just delete all the pages for Naruto. They are so out of date it's not funny.

 

[KingogKings777]

Just to clarify, is it possible for Sasuke to hold himself back to a level where he could theoretically throw out 6-C or 6-B attacks? Or will this version of Sasuke always produce 5-B attacks uncontrollably?

You natural still or still waiting?

The profile should reflect that better, to be fair. But yeah, disagree with the thread then.

Also, you still disagree, correct?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, still neutral.

 

[KingogKings777]

Yeah, still neutral.

Okay bet. What would it take to convince to agree or disagree?

 

[Ped2018]

Okay bet. What would it take to convince to agree or disagree?

10k on his account by tomorrow.

Can you manage that?

 

[KingogKings777]

10k on his account by tomorrow.

Can you manage that?

I got Monopoly money, so yeah give me a mailing address.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, you still disagree, correct?

If I haven't said anything to that effect, means my position hasn't changed. Just waiting for the supporters to propose the fix.

 

[KingogKings777]

If I haven't said anything to that effect, means my position hasn't changed. Just waiting for the supporters to propose the fix.

Bet.

 

[SlendVeny]

Okay bet. What would it take to convince to agree or disagree?

You can land all of our votes in exchange for your soul.

 

[KingogKings777]

You can land all of our votes in exchange for your soul.

Soul slot is empty try again another time.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Yeah I agree with the downgrade, I never once agreed with this 5-B scaling for every single Boruto-Era character that disregards logic.

1. Multiple Statements of Being Weaker

For starters, you literally have 1 quote from Naruto, 1 quote from Kurama, and another quote from Sasuke that they were weakened or not at their peak during the Shin Arc. Already you have multiple pieces of evidence that the Naruto and Sasuke are unquantifiably weaker than their 5-B peak.

• Shin Era Naruto and Sasuke < Peak 5-B Naruto and Sasuke

Therefore, you can't scale them to that level by multiple statements.

2. Sasuke's Intentions were not Lethal on Shin

The argument to scale the Shin clone to 5-B Sasuke is already invalid due to Sasuke admitting to being weaker at this point, but to use the evidence of the Shin clone surviving a fireball is incredulous.

Sasuke literally says in the same page that he is firing the Jutsu that he is going to get answers out of Shin. That's pretty quite obvious that Sasuke is not using his full power in that Fireball Jutsu. Literally use your brain here, to Naruto and Sasuke they are the most powerful beings on the planet far beyond every other Ninja and hundreds of magnitudes above the Akatsuki (who Shin is claiming to be with his regalia), why on Earth would Sasuke use his full power?

You're essentially assuming a similar analogy of an adult human attempting to subdue a moving baby by going full force instead of recognizing they are much stronger and would therefore need to restrict their strength.

The Fireball Jutsu feat holds no merit when Sasuke directly states in the same panel that he intended for Shin to survive; therefore, Sasuke is holding back.

• Shin Era Sasuke with statements that he is weaker and holding back < Peak 5-B Sasuke

3. Why are People Using the Movie Guidebook and Urashiki Filler Arc? They Aren't Canon.

The movie itself was already retconned by the anime and the primary canon itself, the manga.

Not to mention it's a guidebook statement of the retconned movie. Dude, this is like 3 layers of retconning and no longer canon in any sense.

Urashiki is literally a filler arc with nothing to do with the manga, it was never canon.

4. Naruto Was Absolutely Caught Off-Guard

Naruto's Kurama Chakra Avatar literally stops Shin's blades easily right before.

With Kurama's direct statement of Naruto's Battle Senses being dull and Naruto himself going "..?" we can clearly tell that Naruto was caught off-guard.

That's two pieces of evidence that Naruto was off-guard and one literal counter feat of an on-guard Naruto easily stopping the blades with his Chakra Cloak.

Which is it, Naruto bros? Can Naruto stop the blades or can he not stop the blades?? You can't have your cake and eat it.

• An On-Guard Naruto Stopping the Blades vs an Off-Guard Naruto who Failed to Stop the Blades?

To summarize, you have multiple statements of Naruto and Sasuke being weaker, you have a statement from Sasuke stating that he is holding back, you have a literal counter feat of Naruto being able to stop the blades previously, and you have two statements proving Naruto was off-guard to support the previous point.

In no world does Shin Uchiha scale to Naruto and Sasuke who have multiple statements of being weaker than their peaks, who are clearly obviously holding back to get information from Shin, and already had feats of quite easily stopping Shin's attacks when prepared for it.

 

[Damage3245]

Once again IMade makes a pretty clear assessment of the proposal.

I am now in favor of the proposal.

 

[KingogKings777]

Once again IMade makes a pretty clear assessment of the proposal.

I am now in favor of the proposal.

*When having more braincells then the OP help, look at what you can accomplish.

 

[SlendVeny]

Yeah I agree with the downgrade, I never once agreed with this 5-B scaling for every single Boruto-Era character that disregards logic.

1. Multiple Statements of Being Weaker

For starters, you literally have 1 quote from Naruto, 1 quote from Kurama, and another quote from Sasuke that they were weakened or not at their peak during the Shin Arc. Already you have multiple pieces of evidence that the Naruto and Sasuke are unquantifiably weaker than their 5-B peak.

• Shin Era Naruto and Sasuke < Peak 5-B Naruto and Sasuke

Therefore, you can't scale them to that level by multiple statements.

2. Sasuke's Intentions were not Lethal on Shin

The argument to scale the Shin clone to 5-B Sasuke is already invalid due to Sasuke admitting to being weaker at this point, but to use the evidence of the Shin clone surviving a fireball is incredulous.

Sasuke literally says in the same page that he is firing the Jutsu that he is going to get answers out of Shin. That's pretty quite obvious that Sasuke is not using his full power in that Fireball Jutsu. Literally use your brain here, to Naruto and Sasuke they are the most powerful beings on the planet far beyond every other Ninja and hundreds of magnitudes above the Akatsuki (who Shin is claiming to be with his regalia), why on Earth would Sasuke use his full power?

You're essentially assuming a similar analogy of an adult human attempting to subdue a moving baby by going full force instead of recognizing they are much stronger and would therefore need to restrict their strength.

The Fireball Jutsu feat holds no merit when Sasuke directly states in the same panel that he intended for Shin to survive; therefore, Sasuke is holding back.

• Shin Era Sasuke with statements that he is weaker and holding back < Peak 5-B Sasuke

3. Why are People Using the Movie Guidebook and Urashiki Filler Arc? They Aren't Canon.

The movie itself was already retconned by the anime and the primary canon itself, the manga.

Not to mention it's a guidebook statement of the retconned movie. Dude, this is like 3 layers of retconning and no longer canon in any sense.

Urashiki is literally a filler arc with nothing to do with the manga, it was never canon.

4. Naruto Was Absolutely Caught Off-Guard

Naruto's Kurama Chakra Avatar literally stops Shin's blades easily right before.

With Kurama's direct statement of Naruto's Battle Senses being dull and Naruto himself going "..?" we can clearly tell that Naruto was caught off-guard.

That's two pieces of evidence that Naruto was off-guard and one literal counter feat of an on-guard Naruto easily stopping the blades with his Chakra Cloak.

Which is it, Naruto bros? Can Naruto stop the blades or can he not stop the blades?? You can't have your cake and eat it.

• An On-Guard Naruto Stopping the Blades vs an Off-Guard Naruto who Failed to Stop the Blades?

To summarize, you have multiple statements of Naruto and Sasuke being weaker, you have a statement from Sasuke stating that he is holding back, you have a literal counter feat of Naruto being able to stop the blades previously, and you have two statements proving Naruto was off-guard to support the previous point.

In no world does Shin Uchiha scale to Naruto and Sasuke who have multiple statements of being weaker than their peaks, who are clearly obviously holding back to get information from Shin, and already had feats of quite easily stopping Shin's attacks when prepared for it.

All right, since this is actually good work, I can agree to it.

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm generally against putting characters at completely unknown when they're shown harming others. The fact of the matter is, Shin did hurt Naruto in his cloaked form and his method of doing so doesn't negate durability. Not to mention that this was cloaked naruto that shin hurt, and we already rate naruto in base at 5-B cause he was able to tank hits from a fused momoshiki in base, so there's not a lot of wiggle room to act like his durability is that much lower in a rusty cloaked form. Especially cause being rusty in this instance is more about reactions and exerting themselves, not about their actual power.

Shin can still be weaker than Naruto and Sasuke but able to harm them and all of his stuff looks like a case of that.

 

[Stryker861]

aint no way king is tryna say that this sasuke is less durable than a weakend base naruto 1 arc later . i disagree btw

 

[Damage3245]

I'm generally against putting characters at completely unknown when they're shown harming others. The fact of the matter is, Shin did hurt Naruto in his cloaked form and his method of doing so doesn't negate durability. Not to mention that this was cloaked naruto that shin hurt, and we already rate naruto in base at 5-B cause he was able to tank hits from a fused momoshiki in base, so there's not a lot of wiggle room to act like his durability is that much lower in a rusty cloaked form. Especially cause being rusty in this instance is more about reactions and exerting themselves, not about their actual power.

Shin can still be weaker than Naruto and Sasuke but able to harm them and all of his stuff looks like a case of that.

That's a later version of Naruto.

 

[Godernet]

That's a later version of Naruto.

that Naruto is 6 months before Momo Arc. And we know for a fact Naruto doesn't train at this time due to hokage duties.

 

[Duedate8898]

That's a later version of Naruto.

I know but the bigger issue I have is assuming that base form naruto about 6 months in the future is both stronger and tougher than his cloaked version from before then to a degree that scaling between the two is unreliable. While that is a good amount of time, seeing as the arc is all about how Naruto can't make time for his family and the lack of real threats that'd he'd be preparing for as hokage, such a drastic increase in strength and durability that his base form exceeds his cloaked form feels unsubstantiated.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The fact of the matter is, Shin did hurt Naruto in his cloaked form and his method of doing so doesn't negate durability

With an attack that took Naruto by surprise and by an attack Naruto blocked before with minimal effort beforehand. I don't think a single instance that the work took time to handwave means much. Especially when Shin was stomped and consistently shown to be weaker than two nerfed characters.

 

[Godernet]

With an attack that took Naruto by surprise and by an attack Naruto blocked before with minimal effort beforehand. I don't think a single instance that the work took time to handwave means much. Especially when Shin was stomped and consistently shown to be weaker than two nerfed characters.

Blocking attacks doesn't necessarily mean he can't be injured by them and Sasuke was still injured too while he was on guard.

And even if he was off guard the Kurama Cloak was still penetrated. And we've seen that his KN and KCM cloaks continuously protects him while he's in those forms

.While chakra is more powerful when it's concentrated to fulfill a purpose(like we see with Naruto blocking the attacks later) even Kurama's Chakra cloak should still be capable of blocking any attack that's not at least somewhat relative to Naruto especially since Kurama actively watches Naruto while he fights.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Blocking attacks doesn't necessarily mean he can't be injured by them

It means there's a notable difference between Naruto when he's readied and Naruto when he's not.

And we've seen that his KN and KCM cloaks continuously protects him while he's in those forms

Do you have an example where when off guard the cloak has protected Naruto from a similar style of attack?

 

[Godernet]

It means there's a notable difference between Naruto when he's readied and Naruto when he's not.

I agree but that difference is too unquantifiable to slap an unknown rating on Shin's MS ability. Especially when an on-guard Sasuke was also injured and even Base Naruto is 5-B at this point.

Do you have an example where when off guard the cloak has protected Naruto from a similar style of attack?

Naruto doesn't get stabbed often so not exactly like this but I believe there are some examples in the earlier fight with Edo Madara and IIRC a statement that Naruto's cloaked forms can protect and attack as if they have a mind of their own due to Kurama.

I'll have to double check.

 

[Stryker861]

I'd have to double-check because I believe there are some examples in the earlier fight with Edo Madara and IIRC a statement that Naruto's cloaked forms can protect and attack as if they have a mind of their own due to Kurama.

https://xfs-r105.batcg.org/comic/70...png?acc=JpX9FwN3jwtZKJi2tKhx_w&exp=1682035872

 

[Godernet]

https://xfs-r105.batcg.org/comic/70...png?acc=JpX9FwN3jwtZKJi2tKhx_w&exp=1682035872

that's the one for attacking as if his chakra was doing it on its own. thank you! I believe there is a more in-depth comment like this from Jiraiya but I'll need to check.

 

[Stryker861]

ill try to find it