Scarlet Witch should be at least 2-A, in House of M

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I'll provide some feats in bullet points in a few... If you don't mind me doing so.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

She also did manage to take complete control of dormammu.https://www.google.com/search?q=doc..._AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=640#imgrc=JFgMsDOmMp0o0M

 

[Soratoum]

Perfecly fine with me. @The 2nd Existential Seed

When did that happen? @Peter, I'm asking out of curiousity.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I believe it happened durning house of m also.

 

[Soratoum]

Yeah, I can see the similar art, so it probably did.

 

[Sandman31]

I also remember that, the problem is that Dormammu is 2-C via scaling from Classic Strange

 

[Soratoum]

Dormammu, at his peak, was Eternity's superior, but I think Eternity should be 2-A, due to scaling from Cosmic Cubes.

 

[Soratoum]

Wait, is Phoenix Force High 1-B? I see that it's Low 2-C, but people say it should be higher, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't Scarlet Witch trap Dormammu in the Evil Eye during the Avengers/Defenders war crossover during the 1970s? Is that the incident that you are talking about?

I don't remember the circumstances well though.

 

[Soratoum]

Yeah, she did something like that. Can't remeber what exactly, but there was also another moment where she pushed Dormammu back to his dimension while she was asleep in House of M.

 

[Soratoum]

@Antvasima Also, the thing about Phoenix Force, is it really High 1-B?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't remember any other confrontations with Dormammu.

I am not sure where to place the Phoenix Force in its entirety, but it is possible that it will be upgraded to that level. It depends on what Sandman31, Matthew Schroeder, and Sera EX think.

 

[Soratoum]

You mean in the House of M? Because in HoM, she didn't directly confront him.

I'm asking because if it's High 1-B, then alleged Scarlet Witch's true/full potential should be that high as well. Since it's been pretty well established that Phoenix Force and Chaos Magic (Wanda's Magic) are equal fundamental forces.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

You mean in the House of M? Because in HoM, she didn't directly confront him.
I'm asking because if it's High 1-B, then alleged Scarlet Witch's true/full potential should be that high as well. Since it's been pretty well established that Phoenix Force and Chaos Magic (Wanda's Magic) are equal fundamental forces.

It doesn't work that way. The Phoenix Force that came to earth in AVX event was a fragment of the whole thing... And Chaos Magic only hurt the host...

 

[Soratoum]

Nobody said that I was referring to that specific fragment of the Phoenix Force. It wasn't a casual conversation when they said it, they said that both of those forces, no matter the quantity, balance each other out. It would make sense, especially if you think that both have been called infinite before.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Where should we rate the Phoenix Five ? That would directly affect Scarlet, seeing as how she can fight on par with them.

 

[Antvasima]

We don't have much to scale them from.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Magik did own Dormammu though .

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but that was Bendis writing yet another story that did not make any logical sense scaling-wise. Dormammu was also severely damaged by Cyclops in that X-Men story, and beaten up by Frankenstein's Monster in a SHIELD story by Mark Waid.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The only thing that did make sense was the whole Uncanny X-Men Story involving Matthew Malloy....

Though a comment from Rachel did imply that Malloy is > PR Beyonder.... And WoG intended Malloy to be the most powerful character made by Marvel before then.... And is stated to be not bound by the concepts of time and space using his powers.... Yet got destroyed by nukes (though he did revive himself) and written out of existence by time travel....NVM

 

[PsychoWarper]

Glass Cannon and PIS I guess.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

We have made threads for the Phoenix and its Avatars before... Check these threads:

• Thread 1
• Thread 2

But we wait for Matthew...

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

A few things about Dormammu

1) His powers increases the more he is worshipped by his followers as such power scaling off him is quite controversial

2) Cyclops's most powerful attack barely hurt Dormammu and as we can see, his comrades were shocked by his performance and we even see he got completely tired out from the effort, the instance is from Uncanny X-Men vol 3 #6

3) Cyclops' optic blasts were broken and out of control due to his exposure to Phoenix (from the same comic)

4) Before getting beaten by Frankenstein's monster and the Howling Commandos, Dormammu was caught off guard and drained of his magical powers by Creel, so it was basically a powerless Dormammu that they defeated

Basically what I am saying is that scaling of Dormammu isn't a good idea

 

[Antvasima]

Well, from what I remember Cyclops made Dormammu scream in agony, and the Absorbing Man has been overloaded by Quasar and the Hulk, and his power is more to duplicate than to depower in the first place. In any case, he shouldn't be anywhere near powerful enough to absorb an entity capable of merging universes and beating up Eternity.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

For a moment, then Dormammu was completely fine (and Cyclops was stronger than usual)

It is unknown if Creel took away Dormammu's power, but he beat up Dormammu quite badly by drawing Dormammu's powers as stated by Hill

I don't recall Wendell ever overloading Creel, and Banner basically did that because of special nature of his Gamma energy

Dormammu also never beat Eternity, he infact admitted to be inferior to Eternity, and their battle was narrated by Strange who admitted he couldn't comprehend the fight

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

It has also been stated that a hell Lord like Magik, Dormammu, Cyttorak is a master in his domain which I means that they way more powerful there. Wasn't Dormammu in Limbo in the fight with Magik?

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

That is also correct. Plus Dormammu Post Defenders (ever since his depowerement at Umar's hands) has been unimpressive and nowhere near his former power level

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

His throne, which Crusher took power from, was also capable of destroying the Universe

 

[Antvasima]

Quasar overloaded Creel early in his own series. The Hulk was simply too powerful to absorb after being empowered by Apocalypse.

Cyclops shouldn't be nearly powerful enough to make a 2-C entity scream in agony.

Marvel was just being extremely inconsistent, as usual.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

You mean in the classic days?

Yeah, Hulk was also serving as a channel for extra dimensional energy at this time, so it makes sense why he overloaded Creel

Scott's amp was from Phoenix incident, so it makes sense that he did so (against Dormammu who was weaker due to being outside his dimension)

This ^ all combined with the fact that his power depends on worship explain his inconsistencies

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you are trying way too hard to rationalise too great inconsistencies to be rationalised, when it is really just about most writers not caring much about consistency, or having enough knowledge to maintain it.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

I mean, there are inconsistencies and I agree with it, but they are mostly with popular characters like Hulk, Thor etc.

But I am actually with you guys about not scaling Wanda to Dormammu due to Dormammu's dependency and nerfed powers in modern comics (Post Defenders)

 

[Antvasima]

Most Marvel characters are extremely inconsistent, and with the exception of Tom Brevoort the editors don't seem to know the continuity well at all.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Well from my experience the writing is inconsistent power wise only WHERE popular characters are involved, and those inconsistencies are contradicted by several other feats and statements so they are quite easy to ignore as well

Continuity errors occur in a lot of verses, not just Marvel

 

[Antvasima]

Marvel has had hundreds of writers and tens of thousands of stories. Most of them don't know or care enough to remotely keep it straight and consistent. By my experience after growing up reading a massive amount of Marvel comicbooks, it is likely one of the most systematically inconsistent franchises ever created, and said inconsistencies span virtually everything.

 

[Soratoum]

What's up with this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Where were we before derailing?

 

[Soratoum]

Something about Phoenix Force and Dormammu. Plus about Wanda affecting countless futures on 2-B scale etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

What is the summary of what has been concluded in this thread so far if anyone knows?