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Why the Phoenix Force and its Avatar's are underestimated here?

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The Phoenix Force here doesn't even have a profile. The Phoenix Force is a Cosmic Entity, Guardian of Creation and is the embodiment of life and death itself. I will provide some scans reguarding Phoenix and its powers and some recent feats:

Well what do you think?
 
I'm guessing that the Avatars generally don't reach such high levels, and that 4-B is more consistent.

The Phoenix Force is likely much higher, but I don't know to what extent.
 
Promestein said:
I'm guessing that the Avatars generally don't reach such high levels, and that 4-B is more consistent.
The Phoenix Force is likely much higher, but I don't know to what extent.
Click to expand...
The thing is that if Phoenix Thane can depower like nothing, a being like Thanos who is 4B then he should be way more powerful than him to do it.

Phoenix Cyclops was defeated by God Doom but regardless he managed to hurt a 1B being. That should speak volumes.

Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
You make good points in your post, i should've brung this up a lonng time ago.....

anyway, you ask Matt for input here
Click to expand...
Hi. And thanks. I just can not see why the Phoenix is treated like that...

Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't think that the normal Phoenix Avatars are as powerful as the full force, with the exception of White Phoenix of the Crown.
Click to expand...
White Phoenix of the Crown I believe is the most powerful and special Phoenix Avatar because its not just an Avatar but is one with the Force itself. So if Phoenix Cyclops could hurt God Doom then the White Phoenix of the Crown would perfurm better since she is stronger.

I understand that there is confusing about the Force since its used by various Avatars in the Multiverse. I believe Phoenix Force (616) to be a fraction. Its similar with Eternity and Multi-Eternity. We haven't and we probably never see the full potential of the Phoenix Force but there are feats/statements that put Avatars way beyond 4B.
 
@KOMI

The difference between the 4-B and 4-A is trillions of times. Stomping Thanos is only 4-B.

"Phoenix Cyclops was defeated by God Doom but regardless he managed to hurt a 1B being. That should speak volumes."

Yeah, that's PIS.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@KOMI
The difference between the 4-B and 4-A is trillions of times. Stomping Thanos is only 4-B.

"Phoenix Cyclops was defeated by God Doom but regardless he managed to hurt a 1B being. That should speak volumes."

Yeah, that's PIS.
Click to expand...
Its not just stomping him. He took his power away...

I get what you mean about the fight with God Doom (although we have seen a lot more stupid things in the comics....) but what about other statements? Rechel Grey's and Necrom fight? Or what about the Force itself?

Also Jean or Rechel alone can go toe to toe with Thor. Shouldn't Phoenix Force a Cosmic being put them way beyond?

Also can we use what if story feats? Because Phoenix/Dark Phoenix has some good one...
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The Phoenix Force is definitely Tier 2.
Click to expand...
Good although I still believe that the Phoenix Force (as a whole Force) should be something like Mutli-Eternity... It powers hosts in the Multiverse...

What do you think of Rachel and Jean (Green/Red costumes) as Phoenix hosts though? Rachel's statement suggests 3A. In what if stories Dark Phoenix has destroyed the Universe. Dark Phoenix Cyclops statement? Many Avatars may have poor feats but that doesn't mean their full power is 4B. I believe Unknown would be a better choice or At least 4B or something... (except for Jean and Rachel... For those I spoke above..)
 
I am uncertain if the Phoenix Force is tier Low 2-C or tier 2-A. Jean Grey repaired the M'Kraan Crystal, but I do not remember if its collapse would have destroyed the universe or the multiverse.

We are definitely not going to rate it as High 1-B however.
 
Antvasima said:
I am uncertain if the Phoenix Force is tier Low 2-C or tier 2-A. Jean Grey repaired the M'Kraan Crystal, but I do not remember if its collapse would have destroyed the universe or the multiverse.
We are definitely not going to rate it as High 1-B however.
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Hi. Thanks for the answer. I believe the the wiki should have a seperate profile for the Force saying this. I would like to ask from where Multi-Eternity and other Multi versions scale from.
 
They are rated from the complete Marvel multiverse being referred to as infinite-dimensional in a few instances.
 
Antvasima said:
They are rated from the complete Marvel multiverse being referred to as infinite-dimensional in a few instances.
Click to expand...
This is a bit confusing... If this is true then the complete Force (all not only 616) wouldn't be there 2 from these two things:

  • According to this the Phoenix Force is the repository of the psionic energies of the Multiverse. (would mean complete Multiverse..)
  • Projecting the essense of a tower simultaneously in the Multiverse.
 
It simply seems to be the embodiment of the life-forces of the inhabitants of the universe, or possibly all universes. Infinite higher dimensions have never been stated or implied as far as I am aware.
 
Antvasima said:
It simply seems to be the embodiment of the life-forces of the inhabitants of the universe, or possibly all universes. Infinite higher dimensions have never been stated or implied as far as I am aware.
Click to expand...
And if I remember correctly the embodiment of all life that exists, existed and will exist. Meaning Past,Present and Future.
 
Yes, but that is already included in Low 2-C and above.
 
Well, it was an alternate reality, so I do not think that we can use it.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it was an alternate reality, so I do not think that we can use it.
Click to expand...
Yeah but that doesn't change the power of the character... Only what happened to the reality but ok...
 
Jean had the potential of becoming a destructive force so powerful she'd have destroyed the universe, but she never did.
 
@Ant

I think 4-B for most Phoenixes, Low 2-C for White Phoenix and 2-A for Phoenix Force is acceptable.
 
Okay. Feel free to perform any necessary revisions then.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Ant
I think 4-B for most Phoenixes, Low 2-C for White Phoenix and 2-A for Phoenix Force is acceptable.
Click to expand...
Ok. But I think for Jean it would be better is Potential 3A. We don't know Dark Phoenix/Phoenix's power and Jean with Phoenix Force >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Base Jean. I think Unknown.Potentially 3A is better for Jean Green/Red Phoenix.
 
Well, Jean did prevent the destruction of the M'Kraan Crystal in her regular Phoenix state, so "Potentially 3-A" seems reasonable.
 
Okay. Are you willing to fix the profiles? I am extremely busy already, and will go to bed soon, so I am increasingly dependent on the staff.
 
Okay. Thanks.
 
After searching a bit more... The Phoenix eggs are only really small portions of the Phoenix that Jean, the White Phoenix of the Crown, set out to go and collect. Like the one Thane has now. For the time being, the biggest manifestation of the Phoenix, is in Might Thor and soon is going to be in the Jean Grey book.

The White Hot Room is called the Heart of the Phoenix.

Antvasima said:
Okay. Are you willing to fix the profiles? I am extremely busy already, and will go to bed soon, so I am increasingly dependent on the staff.
Click to expand...

Well what happened with fixing the profiles?
 
Well, it is up to Matthew if he has the time and energy to fix the Phoenix profiles. I am already extremely busy with monitoring most of what is going on in the wiki.
 
Well, I suppose that seems fine, by scaling from the White Phoenix of the Crown.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Ant
I think 4-B for most Phoenixes, Low 2-C for White Phoenix and 2-A for Phoenix Force is acceptable.
Click to expand...
According to Matthew and our previous discussion its not fine completely...
 
Okay. Well, if you remember your rationales, and they are reasonable, I suppose that it could be upgraded.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Well, if you remember your rationales, and theu are reasonable, I suppose that it could be upgraded.
Click to expand...
You could look to our previous conversation. All the Phoenix Force is not only the 616 version. The complete Force (all univserses) with avatars from all over reality is in the White Hot Room.
 
Hmm. If even the WPotC is only one of many multiversal avatars, I suppose that 2-A might be more appropriate.
 
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