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It's not about 2+2=123456, it's about who appeared in the series. So if you saw Spider-Man and someone called him Superman, would you agree with them? Because that’s how you’re talking right now.^°^
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SCARLET WITCH AND THE GRIEVER Revisions
- Thread starter Yokoahh5743
- Start date
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Personally, I never get my references from quaro.
You talk about understanding but you cannot answer the situation I mentioned above.
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I have never seen so many ignorant people in my life. I am really tired of this issue because those who defend the op.
They can't offer anything against the opposing arguments. They use insults like "toxic"
You've never read a cosmology series in your life.
Multiversal forms of abstracts cannot use their powers in normal space, this is the multi forms of lord chaos and master order. They confirmed it in issue #6 of the Ultimates 2016 event.
Griever's multiversal/omniversal form is much bigger than that of lord chaos and master order. he is multi Eternity and never queen level. I shared the references for this here. =
SCARLET WITCH AND THE GRIEVER Revisions
How?? What about her domain that exists at the void in Scarlet witch series? Well, he describes the reason he liked her original appearance, the one he built upon. Naturally, I can't prove it, but his statement doesn't prove anything either. Honestly, no idea about void. I might assume that...
What I mean is that if omniversal griever was as you claim, earth 616 and the local multiverse would have already been destroyed. Because the person who opened the op threw a scan showing that the griever used all his power, but at the end of the work, neither earth 616 nor the local multiverse collapsed, because this is not the omniversal griever.
Despite all this, I did not get any answer from the op. you just repeated the same thing and ignored it. Frankly, I don't think you will understand this even now. You didn't even understand the example I gave about math.
Excellence616
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You seems to misunderstand what Eldritch Orchard is and The Waiting Room.
Eldritch Orchard is made of Chaos magic and it's an Astral realm while Waiting Room was made with the help of other mutants for the sole purpose of resurrecting them.
You are referring to Eldritch Orchard not the Waiting Room.
I see what you are getting at since Waiting Room is like a prototype of The Eldritch Orchard
Nope. It's a gateway of Life and Death
The Edge of reality?
Nuh uh
Excellence616
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Okay. So just because of what one writer said, we should ignore years of consistently of how they have portrayed Abstracts?
Besides that, the fact that Polaris could made her bleed and the fact that most of them could interact with them debunks her form being a Omniversal Form.
Like I have said before and I would say it again:
Qualities that describes an Abstract in their Omniversal Form can be used to describe their Universal Form.
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Yoko and BunBun, please stop spamming, as your suggestions here seem to have been rejected. 
@MrKerf @Excellence616 @ProfectusInfinity
Can you discuss what, if any, revisions that we should apply based on this thread?
@MrKerf @Excellence616 @ProfectusInfinity
Can you discuss what, if any, revisions that we should apply based on this thread?
Excellence616
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Fighting against the Griever can be added to her Low 1-A rating and She should get Immeasurable Speed.Yoko and BunBun, please stop spamming, as your suggestions here seem to have been rejected.
@MrKerf @Excellence616 @ProfectusInfinity
Can you discuss what, if any, revisions that we should apply based on this thread?
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What Excel said.Yoko and BunBun, please stop spamming, as your suggestions here seem to have been rejected.
@MrKerf @Excellence616 @ProfectusInfinity
Can you discuss what, if any, revisions that we should apply based on this thread?
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Even in your scan, she stated that she was about to destroy the world, which is why she unleashed her power. She knows when and how to end all things— she is the solution to how all things begin and end. I provided this scan above, but you seem to be ignoring it.I have never seen so many ignorant people in my life. I am really tired of this issue because those who defend the op.
They can't offer anything against the opposing arguments. They use insults like "toxic"
You've never read a cosmology series in your life.
Multiversal forms of abstracts cannot use their powers in normal space, this is the multi forms of lord chaos and master order. They confirmed it in issue #6 of the Ultimates 2016 event.
Griever's multiversal/omniversal form is much bigger than that of lord chaos and master order. he is multi Eternity and never queen level. I shared the references for this here. =
SCARLET WITCH AND THE GRIEVER Revisions
How?? What about her domain that exists at the void in Scarlet witch series? Well, he describes the reason he liked her original appearance, the one he built upon. Naturally, I can't prove it, but his statement doesn't prove anything either. Honestly, no idea about void. I might assume that...vsbattles.com
What I mean is that if omniversal griever was as you claim, earth 616 and the local multiverse would have already been destroyed. Because the person who opened the op threw a scan showing that the griever used all his power, but at the end of the work, neither earth 616 nor the local multiverse collapsed, because this is not the omniversal griever.
Despite all this, I did not get any answer from the op. you just repeated the same thing and ignored it. Frankly, I don't think you will understand this even now. You didn't even understand the example I gave about math.
Lord Chaos and Master Order serve different concepts in the Multiverse, so they shouldn't be directly compared to the Griever. The Griever embodies destruction and the end itself, and she was able to control her destructive force at all times. As I said, please stop replying with these revisions if you're biased, it wastes people's time.
Even the Never Queen enters the Multiverse without causing any damage. She uses her powers there, and everything seems normal; she hasn't disrupted the fabric of reality. She embodies possibilities itself and knows how to control her power. This is why I said you shouldn't compare abstract entities, as they all serve different ideas and concepts.
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He was amped by Scarlet witch's hexes. Please read the context, not just the panels.
MadeByZiggy
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In the story she gains a power up as a Nexi.
this wouldn't apply as an anti-feat
MadeByZiggy
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nothing wrong with using "quaro"
MrKerf
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I will look through the comic once again once I’m home, I recall seeing some minor abilities that might need indexing.
MrKerf
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So, from what I see:
Griever at the End of All Things
Probably some degree of Precognition (Intertwined with her Fate Manipulation, she knows and is the fist of the Grand Design, which is a preplanned end, and knows how her actions will affect it.)
Immortality Negation (At least Types 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 (Stated to be capable of destroying Death and Chthon) "I just copied her own immortalities, although I would've put All Types personally"
Power Nullification (Can end even electricity, vibrations and magical fires)
Not sure how useful this is, since she already has similar, but Non-Physical Interaction (Rips apart magic worm)
Resistance to Hellfire (Unaffected by combustion Hellfire rounds)
Resistance to Time Manipulation (Unfazed by Wanda's temporal spells)
Edge of Reality "I doubt anyone here is willing to make a separate page, so it goes on Griever's page as separate tab and Optional Equipment"
Durability Negation, Space-Time Manipulation, Portal Creation, and Power Nullification (snip) Also maybe some Conceptual thing for harming Queen of Nevers, but I'm no expert in these.
Scarlet Witch
Firstly - she isn't Ultimate Nexus yet, but will be in the far future. Maybe. New Key for Darkhold/Nexi with all darkhold magic I guess.
Possibly Immortality (Type 7, after dying her soul refused undoing and fled)
Thoughts/additions?
Griever at the End of All Things
Probably some degree of Precognition (Intertwined with her Fate Manipulation, she knows and is the fist of the Grand Design, which is a preplanned end, and knows how her actions will affect it.)
Immortality Negation (At least Types 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 (Stated to be capable of destroying Death and Chthon) "I just copied her own immortalities, although I would've put All Types personally"
Power Nullification (Can end even electricity, vibrations and magical fires)
Not sure how useful this is, since she already has similar, but Non-Physical Interaction (Rips apart magic worm)
Resistance to Hellfire (Unaffected by combustion Hellfire rounds)
Resistance to Time Manipulation (Unfazed by Wanda's temporal spells)
Edge of Reality "I doubt anyone here is willing to make a separate page, so it goes on Griever's page as separate tab and Optional Equipment"
Durability Negation, Space-Time Manipulation, Portal Creation, and Power Nullification (snip) Also maybe some Conceptual thing for harming Queen of Nevers, but I'm no expert in these.
Scarlet Witch
Firstly - she isn't Ultimate Nexus yet, but will be in the far future. Maybe. New Key for Darkhold/Nexi with all darkhold magic I guess.
Possibly Immortality (Type 7, after dying her soul refused undoing and fled)
Thoughts/additions?
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No one here is comparing. And you haven't said anything to refute what I said.
You admitted that he used all his power, but neither earth 616 nor the local multiverse collapsed, so it should not be difficult to understand that he is not an omniversal griever.
Never queen can use her powers because she is all-encompassing so stop making fallacy
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It's a site for 15-year-olds. İn the power scaling is no one uses. *except Wanda fans
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Wasn't it the M-Body version of Griever that killed Molecule Man ?
Yeah I just checked and that's definitely the case. While it was a cheapshot, they even remarked it by saying in essence 'Is it even possible to kill Molecule Man', meaning it narratively didn't matter in that case if he was taken by surprise or not
Yeah I just checked and that's definitely the case. While it was a cheapshot, they even remarked it by saying in essence 'Is it even possible to kill Molecule Man', meaning it narratively didn't matter in that case if he was taken by surprise or not
Excellence616
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Yeah but MM was caught off guard.
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Like I said, the Narrative immediately responded by saying 'Is it even possible to even kill Molecule Man ?', which means in this case narrative wise, it didn't matter if he was on guard or not, killing him would be just as impossible. Otherwise they would've explained later that he was caught off-guard, but they clearly showed surprised he was killed at all regardless of it being a cheapshot.
MrKerf
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Wasn't he weakened at the time?
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- Thread starter
- #182
I apologize if it seems like I'm spamming, but I haven't participated in this discussion for days. I also believe the information they provided is incorrect.Yoko and BunBun, please stop spamming, as your suggestions here seem to have been rejected.
@MrKerf @Excellence616 @ProfectusInfinity
Can you discuss what, if any, revisions that we should apply based on this thread?
While I understand why many of you think this represents the Griever's Universal form, I see most references in the series as relating to her Omniversal form.
1.)Scarlet Witch is the Ultimate Nexus, a being capable of touching or destroying all realities and possibilities. She can prevent the heat death of all creation(the Griever), as stated by the Never Queen. This statement clearly refers to the Griever in her Omniversal state, and it comes from the Never Queen, not the Griever herself.
2.) The Grand Design is also threatened by the Nexi across universes, this concept tie to all creation,it's the concept how all things begin and end. Wanda threatens this idea; she has altered the set path of the end of the cosmos and everything within it. This angers the Griever, and I don't believe she would send her M-body to stop someone who can influence all possibilities and realities and threaten the Grand Design, even the Darkhold also threaten to the set path, sending her M-body won't do anything against a being like the Living Darkhold/Ultimate Nexus.
Scarlet Witch's powers are clearly above the abstracts M-body; her raw power far exceeds what she has previously displayed, even surpassing her peak state and House of M.
3.)She was able to cross to a higher plane of existence without causing harm, which is remarkable since even the Herald of Life was injured when traveling from the Superflow back to normal space, where crossing such planes typically results in death.
4.)She is the embodies of Primordial Chaos, the same chaos the same chaos embodied by the Chaos King, the same chaos that exists before Multi-Eternity, and the same chaos that expands the Big Bang Heroic Age: Villains #1
5.)As Roirr stated, Omniversal entities could harm normal space by unleashing their powers, but Wanda's Chaos magic threatens the grand design..the concepts that encompass all beginnings and ends to all that is. This may also explain why the Griever couldn't damage normal space.
Excellence616
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Show me a scan of an Abstract Omniversal Form getting damaged by metal or physical attacks?
You seems to overstretch things.
All scans you are showing are just more evidence for Wanda Low 1-A
MrKerf
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Alright, I'll try answering these, and then can I'll ask someone to look at my post above.
She isn't. Not yet. And not tomorrow and not soon. In time - she might pose a threat to the true Griever, but that time isn't now.
She may surpass her House of M self, but she is still Low 1-A, not higher. The Living Darkhold on this wiki is scaled as Low 1-A, possibly higher.
As Nexi - she can, as stated by the Never Queen - rob the Griever of galaxies, but that's it, she isn't Ultimate Nexus yet.
We know many such instances, but I lack the context regardless, haven't read that story.
Again, the Chaos she embodies is freedom and what ifs. The Chaos of the Chaos King is literal chaos and nothingness. Plus, even in your own scans both events occur within Universe, meaning it is "primordial" only within universe.
I think it was already answered above.
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The scans indicate that both Scarlet Witch and the Chaos King embody Primordial Chaos, which exists before existence. It makes sense for Wanda to battle an omniversal entity, as Chaos plays a significant role in creating the multiverse.
MrKerf
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In the very same scans say that she isn't affecting all realities yet, that Chaos King's scope is universal, that Amatsu-Mikaboshi was a formless void of the universe.
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She has already affected all realities and altered the grand design. I mean, she altering it but is not ruling it, refer to what they stated about her.And she has become the Ultimate Nexus, or not—I’m not sure. All I know is that the Never Queen stated she would become the Ultimate Nexus and pervert the heat death of all creation, and she did it so...Maybe she wasn't able to reach her full potential yet, as she stated that she couldn't destroy the Griever. However, while the Griever recovers, we're all free from the end which means she merely delayed it. The Chaos King's scope is Multiversal.The universe, along with the rest of the Multiverse(Big Bang created everything), was expanded because of primordial chaos. I don't know whether primordial chaos played a role in the creation of the Big Bang during the First Firmament or if it only contributed to the creation of the second Big Bang, also known as the 7th cosmos.
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Your information is still incorrect. The Eldritch Orchard is a realm created by Wanda for mutants. It's a space of death and rebirth. The Waiting Room, which exists on Krakoa, is connected to the Eldritch Orchard. As Wanda stated, she created this realm for all mutants and is capable of casting spells that create a pocket dimension (the Waiting Room) connected to that realm.
Furthermore, Storm and other mutants were able to cross into the Mystery, to the WHR by choosing symbols (pathway) inside the Waiting Room (Eldritch Orchard) that led them there. And why shouldn't the Eldritch Orchard exist on the Outside, as it is described to be 'Wells Beyond Worlds' and capable of acting as a road to the Mystery? We have also seen the clouds from the Eldritch Orchard at the WHR.
Excellence616
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The Waiting Room was created by Wanda with the help of Legion and Proteus by performing a ritual to gather in pieces of all possibilities and use that confetti to create an Elysian Fields for mutants, a pocket dimension that existed in a liminal space between life and death. It exist in its own pocket dimension.
The Eldritch Orchard is a part of Scarlet Witch . The monsters that attack Krakoa were made from the Eldritch Orchard. The Eldritch Orchard likely became part of her after she reconciled with herself
If you carefully read through the appearances and story behind them, both are made for the sole purpose of Mutants but the means of which they were created differs.
And having a pathway to the Mystery doesn't necessary makes it High 1-A
Chris_faritsu
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Maybe she should be rated At least Low 1-A for became the living Darkhold and battle with the Griever And " Possibly" or "Likely " H1-A for altering the grand design and creating Eldritch Orchard, as the scans clearly indicate that the concepts of the grand design and Eldritch Orchard are H1-A. This might be the best for this revisions. Talking about the Eldritch Orchard, I disagree with Excell616 because his statements don't relate to the scans he presents. Yoko's information is more relevant." Scarlet Witch attempted to create the Waiting Room through a ceremony with mutants, but the spells initially failed. She claims these spells are connected to the Eldritch Orchard and that part of it was designed for all mutants, these spells are intended to create the Waiting Room in the final scene. So it's pretty clear that the Waiting Room is connected to the Eldritch Orchard."That's all, end the debate.
Excellence616
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Still not High 1-A
They are connected. I didn't say otherwise. But the way the waiting room was created is different as she needed mutants to do that.
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I agree
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Agree
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Huh? How is that not H1-A? .-.
The grand design is clearly H1-A, as it stated to be the concepts of how all things begin and end- it's what will be. ;-
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I think that #198 is the best solution for this revision
MrKerf
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I will reply, in case it will work in summoning you, and to summarise:Yoko and BunBun, please stop spamming, as your suggestions here seem to have been rejected.
@MrKerf @Excellence616 @ProfectusInfinity
Can you discuss what, if any, revisions that we should apply based on this thread?
That’s about it. The last point of contention remaining is the White Hot Room and scaling to it.
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Bump. So I looked into Molecule Man for a minute, and it turns out that the Molecule Man we see who is stated to be more than capable of oneshotting Lifebringer Galactus, is a version of Molecule Man who already has all of his other selves taken out of him to create the Omniverse. So, that means the version of Molecule Man who got oneshotted by Griever is the same one who did the 'Omniverse in a box' feat / had Lifebringer s**tting bricks being in his presence.
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