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SCARLET WITCH AND THE GRIEVER Revisions

The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Bump. So I looked into Molecule Man for a minute, and it turns out that the Molecule Man we see who is stated to be more than capable of oneshotting Lifebringer Galactus, is a version of Molecule Man who already has all of his other selves taken out of him to create the Omniverse. So, that means the version of Molecule Man who got oneshotted by Griever is the same one who did the 'Omniverse in a box' feat / had Lifebringer s**tting bricks being in his presence.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t sound right. In the same issue of FF he, as I recall, needed Franklin to create new universes with, no?
 
MrKerf said:
That doesn’t sound right. In the same issue of FF he, as I recall, needed Franklin to create new universes with, no?
Click to expand...
I'll need to reread the entire context of that to be sure so I'll get back to you on that. It was said that they eventually recreated the whole of Eternity that way though, so it should be much higher than what we currently rate the feat as for the two of them.

Because from what I read, while Molecule Man's powers was used as an anchor, it was Franklin who actively created everything that makes up Complete/True Eternity (which a lot of people seem to forget and just assumed Molecule Man provided the power to do the creating and anchoring, which isn't the case. He only provided the power to anchor those creations, not create them)
 
MrKerf said:
That doesn’t sound right. In the same issue of FF he, as I recall, needed Franklin to create new universes with, no?
Click to expand...
Abstract entities that exist outside of Multi-Eternity may not need an m-body, or their m-body may not need to be on a Universal-Eternity scale. For example, the Never Queen has never stated that she has an m-body; if you consider her 4th-Cosmos form as her m-body, she is still H1-A. Similarly, the Phoenix Force (avatar) is currently described as a healing force for universes. It seems that some abstract entities do not need to exist on the same level of existence as Universal-Eternity.
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
Abstract entities that exist outside of Multi-Eternity may not need an m-body, or their m-body may not need to be on a Universal-Eternity scale. For example, the Never Queen has never stated that she has an m-body; if you consider her 4th-Cosmos form as her m-body, she is still H1-A. Similarly, the Phoenix Force (avatar) is currently described as a healing force for universes. It seems that some abstract entities do not need to exist on the same level of existence as Universal-Eternity.
Click to expand...
4th cosmos was akin to Eternity so naturally she had m-bodies at the time. And usually Queen of Nevers never interacts with anything inside Eternity, just with him, thus portrayed as comparable.
And Phoenix here is specifically not the avatar, if I remember that issue correctly.

However, I don’t mind Griever not being M-body. Come to think of it, why would splitting her across realities be a hindrance if she is composed of Manifestation entities. Plus one can see some other contradicting things. But it won’t give Wanda higher tier, just downgrade Griever.
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
• The Griever serves the grand design, a set path of the end of all things. This quiet math has been, written and planned, it supports creation.
Click to expand...
Yokoahh5743 said:
•As the living darkhold, Scarlet witch was powerful enough to channing Chthon Darkhold Omega #1, who stated to be chaos/deadly freedom that defying the Griever's grand designs , and took his power for herself.Able to controls, infinite possibilities trial of magneto #5.She became the true darkhold ,the unending chaos Scarlet witch and Quicksilver #3. that is opposite of what will be. The True Darkhold holds every life that isn't , wasn't or ever couldn't be. It isn't on the The Griever's set path, the Darkhold is beyond her control. The True Darkhold is said to be a possibility, a space between what is and what will be. It represents the 'what if', all the impossible can becomes possible.It's everything.
Click to expand...
If the Grand Design is H1-A , then Scarlet witch is likely to be H1-A by altering it and containing Chthon and the Darkhold, as both of these threats jeopardize the Grand Design.
Yokoahh5743 said:
• The Waiting Room(Scarlet witch's creation),carved from the seat of magic, stated to be a space where magic grows ,the well beyond the worlds. It's the place where magic lives, where symbols and metaphors are the true reality. The Waiting Room exist at the edge of White Hot Room, Rise of the Powers of X 005 (2024) it's a space between life and death Resurrection of Magneto 001
(2024).
Click to expand...
This kinda wrong, it's not the Waiting Room; the Waiting Room is a pocket dimension connected to the Eldritch Orchard. The Well Beyond Worlds/Eldritch Orchard is the highest plane of magic existence, existing beyond the Dream Dimension (Sleepwalker’s realm), which currently appears to be The Superflow itself. It is the source of all magic- so she is H1-A by creating The Well Beyond Worlds out of chaos.



(I know that in the VS Wiki, Marvel magic is still categorized as low 1-A, but it has shown potential for an upgrade. There are numerous examples, such as Gos Loki using magic to protect the Defenders and fighting the Beyonders, and Meggan Puceanu using magical forces in Otherworld to slow down the Chaos wave that is going to destroy all creation. Additionally, Dr. Strange's artifacts and various mystical realms demonstrate that Marvel magic deserves a significant revision for an upgrade.)
Yokoahh5743 said:
•Scarlet witch is freedom and with possibility as her parton, she became the Ultimate Nexus , a being that can influence or annihilate all possibilities and realities ,this being is unbeholded to the design Scarlet witch and Quicksilver #2.Power without limit, threaten to the set path by existing Scarlet witch and Quicksilver #4 .Was able to handle the Edge of reality. Overpowered the Griever at the end of all things and cast her throughout the myriad of realities.
Click to expand...
She hasn’t become the Ultimate Nexus yet, but her feats are really impressive for handling the Edge of Reality and threaten to the Grand Design by existing.

So If " the Griever is m-body or not "is the issue, we can still use her other feats for her new key, 'The Living Darkhold,' because she still has many feats that could make her tier higher and she isn't the Ultimate Nexus yet ,such as threatening the Grand Design, containing Chthon and the Darkhold, managing the Edge, and creating the Eldritch Orchard/The Well Beyond Worlds. All of this should make the Living Darkhold Varies, Low1-A, up to H1-A
 
MrKerf said:
4th cosmos was akin to Eternity so naturally she had m-bodies at the time. And usually Queen of Nevers never interacts with anything inside Eternity, just with him, thus portrayed as comparable.
And Phoenix here is specifically not the avatar, if I remember that issue correctly.

However, I don’t mind Griever not being M-body. Come to think of it, why would splitting her across realities be a hindrance if she is composed of Manifestation entities. Plus one can see some other contradicting things. But it won’t give Wanda higher tier, just downgrade Griever.
Click to expand...
Phoenix in Defenders:Beyond is an avatar, in Immortal X-Men #18 it is stated that the True Phoenix is the White Hot Room itself. And how can you downgrade The Griever when she represents the end of all creation?
 
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BunBun said:
Phoenix in Defenders:Beyond is an avatar, in Immortal X-Men #18 it is stated that the True Phoenix is the White Hot Room itself. And how can you downgrade The Griever when she represents the end of all creation?
Click to expand...
Weren't they directly in the white hot room at that point? Image lacks context.

Here's how it works.
Regular Abstracts have their true Multiversal selves, their true Universal selves (which exist in every universe), and M-Bodies (avatars for personal matters and such).
If we'd accept Griever as lacking M-Body, she'd be just Omniversal, with Multiversal avatar. So, the downgrade would be in removing one of the keys.
Additionally, her rating would then be "varies due to not being proficient at using her powers against mortals", so she wouldn't cause Wanda's upgrade.
 
MrKerf said:
Weren't they directly in the white hot room at that point? Image lacks context.

Here's how it works.
Regular Abstracts have their true Multiversal selves, their true Universal selves (which exist in every universe), and M-Bodies (avatars for personal matters and such).
If we'd accept Griever as lacking M-Body, she'd be just Omniversal, with Multiversal avatar. So, the downgrade would be in removing one of the keys.
Additionally, her rating would then be "varies due to not being proficient at using her powers against mortals", so she wouldn't cause Wanda's upgrade.
Click to expand...
The Fire Bird that we all saw is just an avatar of the Phoenix. the Phoenix's true form is a WHR, an empty white space.

Wanda still spreads Griever across realities.
 
DivineCreator389 said:
If the Grand Design is H1-A , then Scarlet witch is likely to be H1-A by altering it and containing Chthon and the Darkhold, as both of these threats jeopardize the Grand Design.

This kinda wrong, it's not the Waiting Room; the Waiting Room is a pocket dimension connected to the Eldritch Orchard. The Well Beyond Worlds/Eldritch Orchard is the highest plane of magic existence, existing beyond the Dream Dimension (Sleepwalker’s realm), which currently appears to be The Superflow itself. It is the source of all magic- so she is H1-A by creating The Well Beyond Worlds out of chaos.



(I know that in the VS Wiki, Marvel magic is still categorized as low 1-A, but it has shown potential for an upgrade. There are numerous examples, such as Gos Loki using magic to protect the Defenders and fighting the Beyonders, and Meggan Puceanu using magical forces in Otherworld to slow down the Chaos wave that is going to destroy all creation. Additionally, Dr. Strange's artifacts and various mystical realms demonstrate that Marvel magic deserves a significant revision for an upgrade.)

She hasn’t become the Ultimate Nexus yet, but her feats are really impressive for handling the Edge of Reality and threaten to the Grand Design by existing.

So If " the Griever is m-body or not "is the issue, we can still use her other feats for her new key, 'The Living Darkhold,' because she still has many feats that could make her tier higher and she isn't the Ultimate Nexus yet ,such as threatening the Grand Design, containing Chthon and the Darkhold, managing the Edge, and creating the Eldritch Orchard/The Well Beyond Worlds. All of this should make the Living Darkhold Varies, Low1-A, up to H1-A
Click to expand...
Sorry for the mistake and I completely agree with your opinion.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Bump. So I looked into Molecule Man for a minute, and it turns out that the Molecule Man we see who is stated to be more than capable of oneshotting Lifebringer Galactus, is a version of Molecule Man who already has all of his other selves taken out of him to create the Omniverse. So, that means the version of Molecule Man who got oneshotted by Griever is the same one who did the 'Omniverse in a box' feat / had Lifebringer s**tting bricks being in his presence.
Click to expand...
Isn't this contradicting itself? The version of Owen that got one-shot was the version who'd just finished exhausting his Secret Wars powers by taking fragments of himself (all the alternate Molecule Men that were combined by Doctor Doom to construct the bomb that destroyed the Beyonders) and placing them in all the alternate earths to serve as anchors, so he wouldn't have his Secret Wars powers. It was stated several different times that the reason Griever attacked them when she did was because she was stalking The Future Foundation until the exact moment when they ran out of Universe-Creating energies.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Bump. So I looked into Molecule Man for a minute, and it turns out that the Molecule Man we see who is stated to be more than capable of oneshotting Lifebringer Galactus, is a version of Molecule Man who already has all of his other selves taken out of him to create the Omniverse. So, that means the version of Molecule Man who got oneshotted by Griever is the same one who did the 'Omniverse in a box' feat / had Lifebringer s**tting bricks being in his presence.
Click to expand...
Molecule Man is a glass cannon when not actively protecting himself with his powers, and he was very distracted and taken by surprise. Also, Dan Slott likely portrayed him as far less powerful than Al Ewing did. 🙏
 
MrKerf said:
Also, Wanda already has mention of containing Chthon and Darkhold in base,
Click to expand...
Isn't her new form as The Living Darkhold meant to contain Chthon and the Darkhold? If so, why is it referred to in her base form?
MrKerf said:
so I just added relevant statistics there.
Click to expand...
Also IIRC , in Scarlet Witch Annual #1, it's stated that The Living Darkhold is much more powerful than Wanda has ever been, and the Darkhold is At least low 1-A, possibly higher. I don't think we should categorize The Living Darkhold as part of Wanda's base form.it should be considered a separate key.
 
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DivineCreator389 said:
Isn't her new form as The Living Darkhold meant to contain Chthon and the Darkhold? If so, why is it referred to in her base form? Also IIRC , in Scarlet Witch Annual #1, it's stated that The Living Darkhold is much more powerful than Wanda has ever been, and the Darkhold is At least low 1-A, possibly higher. I don't think we should categorize The Living Darkhold as part of Wanda's base form.it should be considered a separate key.
Click to expand...
I have no idea. But I don't think I should change anything not covered in this crt.
 
MrKerf said:
I have no idea. But I don't think I should change anything not covered in this crt.
Click to expand...
She doesn't have a new key and only provided feats from her battle with the Griever in her base form? So maybe we should wait till Antvasima comes, as you stated that the categories are quite barren.

Btw, I have read the issues , and Wanda did more than just fight the Griever. She created The Well Beyond Worlds , source of all magic energies and threatened the Grand Design, a concept that governs all creations. All of this should qualify her as At least low 1-A.
 
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DivineCreator389 said:
She doesn't have a new key and only provided feats from her battle with the Griever in her base form? So maybe we should wait till Antvasima comes, as you stated that the categories are quite barren.

Btw, I have read the issues , and Wanda did more than just fight the Griever. She created The Well Beyond Worlds , source of all magic energies and threatened the Grand Design, a concept that governs all creations. All of this should qualify her as At least low 1-A.
Click to expand...
How did Wanda create the Well Beyond the Worlds?
 
Ugh. So, against my better judgement, I've read both Trial of Magneto and Resurrection of Magneto.

Trial didn't help. Wanda made a pocket dimension to act as mutant afterlife - no big deal.

Second is interesting though. Due to the #1 issue, it is fairly clear that the Waiting Room was created inside The Well Beyond Worlds. Why they aren't one and the same? Well, the Well was mentioned back in 2007 Marvel Tarot, not created by Wanda in any way.

Now, we don't know to what the Well scales to. However, it is at the very top of magical dimensions. Earth-616 dimensions. Very importantly, it is always stated to be related to one universe, which is in line with the whole technological and magical division that we know is in-universe.

Now, I can only speculate, how the road to afterlife went through the Overspace. But overall, still capped at Low 1-A in my opinion.
 
MrKerf said:
Ugh. So, against my better judgement, I've read both Trial of Magneto and Resurrection of Magneto.

Trial didn't help. Wanda made a pocket dimension to act as mutant afterlife - no big deal.

Second is interesting though. Due to the #1 issue, it is fairly clear that the Waiting Room was created inside The Well Beyond Worlds. Why they aren't one and the same? Well, the Well was mentioned back in 2007 Marvel Tarot, not created by Wanda in any way.

Now, we don't know to what the Well scales to. However, it is at the very top of magical dimensions. Earth-616 dimensions. Very importantly, it is always stated to be related to one universe, which is in line with the whole technological and magical division that we know is in-universe.

Now, I can only speculate, how the road to afterlife went through the Overspace. But overall, still capped at Low 1-A in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Yeah. The hierarchy of mystic dimensions as described in the old Marvel Magic handbooks from the late 2000’s was always:

-Inner Planes (God Realms, most Hells, Elder Gods of Earth’s Dimensions).

-Outer Planes/Consecution of Colors (Dark Dimension, Crimson Cosmos, Purple Dimension, Sixth Dimension).

-Far Realms/Celestial Concordance (Some niche Mystic Principality dimensions like Munnopor and Cinnibus, and the Well Beyond Worlds).

Then of course, the Abstract Dimensions are equal to or above the Far Realms, and the Scientific Universe (Negative Zone, Subspace) are beneath the Mystic Dimensions.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Yeah. The hierarchy of mystic dimensions as described in the old Marvel Magic handbooks from the late 2000’s was always:

-Inner Planes (God Realms, most Hells, Elder Gods of Earth’s Dimensions).

-Outer Planes/Consecution of Colors (Dark Dimension, Crimson Cosmos, Purple Dimension, Sixth Dimension).

-Far Realms/Celestial Concordance (Some niche Mystic Principality dimensions like Munnopor and Cinnibus, and the Well Beyond Worlds).

Then of course, the Abstract Dimensions are equal to or above the Far Realms, and the Scientific Universe (Negative Zone, Subspace) are beneath the Mystic Dimensions.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and it seems relatively consistent with the exception of the Astral Plane being near the bottom
 
MrKerf said:
Trial didn't help. Wanda made a pocket dimension to act as mutant afterlife - no big deal.

Second is interesting though. Due to the #1 issue, it is fairly clear that the Waiting Room was created inside The Well Beyond Worlds. Why they aren't one and the same? Well, the Well was mentioned back in 2007 Marvel Tarot, not created by Wanda in any way.
Click to expand...
Wanda didn't just create a ' pocket dimension ' . She also created a whole dimension called Eldritch Orchard . After that, she created a pocket reality, the Waiting Room, to connect to Eldritch Orchard. The Waiting Room exists within Well Beyond Worlds because Wanda initially attempted to connect to Eldritch Orchard during the Resurrection of Magento. That's why the Eldritch Orchard is Well Beyond Worlds.

I know this events kinda messy but is reasonable, especially considering that one of the darkest forms of magic, time magic, in "Defenders" (2021) allows travel even before existence itself. And in "Trial of Magneto," the events frequently involve the timestream, intertwining past, present, and future.
MrKerf said:
Now, we don't know to what the Well scales to. However, it is at the very top of magical dimensions. Earth-616 dimensions. Very importantly, it is always stated to be related to one universe, which is in line with the whole technological and magical division that we know is in-universe.
Click to expand...
I don’t think Well Beyond Worlds exists at the top of Universal-Eternity , as it exists in a layer called 'Cosmic Concordance.' One of the realms in this layer, the Dream Dimension/Sleepwalker's Realm, is currently confirmed to be The Superflow.
 
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DivineCreator389 said:
I don’t think Well Beyond Worlds exists at the top of Universal-Eternity , as it exists in a layer called 'Cosmic Concordance.' One of the realms in this layer, the Dream Dimension/Splinter's Realm, is currently confirmed to be The Superflow.
Click to expand...
Some comments:

1. The Celestial Concordance is straight up just a tier of mystic dimensions that exist at (or near) the top of Universal Eternity, the outermost mystic planes in the Universe.

2. The "Splinter Realms" refers to a class of mystic dimensions across the Inner Planes, Outer Planes, and Far Realms. They originally belonged to one huge dimension called the "Dark Dimension," but split off into various Realms. The Dream Dimension is just one of the Splinter Realms, as is Dormammu's Dark Dimension (which is the largest of the Splinter Realms).

2. The Dream Dimension, in which Nightmare's Realm is located, is not the same thing as the Superflow. It's stated to be connected to the Splinter Realms, Astral Plane, and Far Realms (Celestial Concordance) simultaneously.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
The Dream Dimension, in which Nightmare's Realm is located, is not the same thing as the Superflow. It's stated to be connected to the Splinter Realms, Astral Plane, and Far Realms (Celestial Concordance) simultaneously.
Click to expand...
I don't know, but it was confirmed to be the Superflow, which is the informational space between universes. It is said to be where dreams, ideas, and visions originate, and where telepathy operates.

And the Dream Dimension/Mindscape is not part of the Splinter Realms, as it is said to exist beyond the layers of Splinter Realms.
 
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I can get behind EE, but I think we should stop at this point and continue in the next crt, once the run is either finished, or has more issues.
Antvasima said:
I have done so. Tell me here when you are done. 🙏
Click to expand...
Aside from EE mentioned above, I am done. Since Wanda has Darkhold at base, I have added new abilities and if new key is needed - restructuring of her page can be dealt with in some other threads.
 
Do we still need to do anything here, or should I close this thread and lock the Scarlet Witch and Griever pages? 🙏
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
Yeah, and I think we should remove all her new statuses, like defeating the Griever and having immeasurable speed from the profile, since those apply only to her Darkhold state , not base form nor HOM. And wait for her new crt.
Click to expand...
I agree, if you don't split the key, you should probably remove it and wait for a new CRT.
 
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