SCARLET WITCH AND THE GRIEVER Revisions

[MrKerf]

Bump. So I looked into Molecule Man for a minute, and it turns out that the Molecule Man we see who is stated to be more than capable of oneshotting Lifebringer Galactus, is a version of Molecule Man who already has all of his other selves taken out of him to create the Omniverse. So, that means the version of Molecule Man who got oneshotted by Griever is the same one who did the 'Omniverse in a box' feat / had Lifebringer s**tting bricks being in his presence.

That doesn’t sound right. In the same issue of FF he, as I recall, needed Franklin to create new universes with, no?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

That doesn’t sound right. In the same issue of FF he, as I recall, needed Franklin to create new universes with, no?

I'll need to reread the entire context of that to be sure so I'll get back to you on that. It was said that they eventually recreated the whole of Eternity that way though, so it should be much higher than what we currently rate the feat as for the two of them.

Because from what I read, while Molecule Man's powers was used as an anchor, it was Franklin who actively created everything that makes up Complete/True Eternity (which a lot of people seem to forget and just assumed Molecule Man provided the power to do the creating and anchoring, which isn't the case. He only provided the power to anchor those creations, not create them)

 

[Yokoahh5743]

That doesn’t sound right. In the same issue of FF he, as I recall, needed Franklin to create new universes with, no?

Abstract entities that exist outside of Multi-Eternity may not need an m-body, or their m-body may not need to be on a Universal-Eternity scale. For example, the Never Queen has never stated that she has an m-body; if you consider her 4th-Cosmos form as her m-body, she is still H1-A. Similarly, the Phoenix Force (avatar) is currently described as a healing force for universes. It seems that some abstract entities do not need to exist on the same level of existence as Universal-Eternity.

 

[MrKerf]

Abstract entities that exist outside of Multi-Eternity may not need an m-body, or their m-body may not need to be on a Universal-Eternity scale. For example, the Never Queen has never stated that she has an m-body; if you consider her 4th-Cosmos form as her m-body, she is still H1-A. Similarly, the Phoenix Force (avatar) is currently described as a healing force for universes. It seems that some abstract entities do not need to exist on the same level of existence as Universal-Eternity.

4th cosmos was akin to Eternity so naturally she had m-bodies at the time. And usually Queen of Nevers never interacts with anything inside Eternity, just with him, thus portrayed as comparable.
And Phoenix here is specifically not the avatar, if I remember that issue correctly.

However, I don’t mind Griever not being M-body. Come to think of it, why would splitting her across realities be a hindrance if she is composed of Manifestation entities. Plus one can see some other contradicting things. But it won’t give Wanda higher tier, just downgrade Griever.

 

[DivineCreator389]

• The Griever serves the grand design, a set path of the end of all things. This quiet math has been, written and planned, it supports creation.

•As the living darkhold, Scarlet witch was powerful enough to channing Chthon Darkhold Omega #1, who stated to be chaos/deadly freedom that defying the Griever's grand designs , and took his power for herself.Able to controls, infinite possibilities trial of magneto #5.She became the true darkhold ,the unending chaos Scarlet witch and Quicksilver #3. that is opposite of what will be. The True Darkhold holds every life that isn't , wasn't or ever couldn't be. It isn't on the The Griever's set path, the Darkhold is beyond her control. The True Darkhold is said to be a possibility, a space between what is and what will be. It represents the 'what if', all the impossible can becomes possible.It's everything.

If the Grand Design is H1-A , then Scarlet witch is likely to be H1-A by altering it and containing Chthon and the Darkhold, as both of these threats jeopardize the Grand Design.

• The Waiting Room(Scarlet witch's creation),carved from the seat of magic, stated to be a space where magic grows ,the well beyond the worlds. It's the place where magic lives, where symbols and metaphors are the true reality. The Waiting Room exist at the edge of White Hot Room, Rise of the Powers of X 005 (2024) it's a space between life and death Resurrection of Magneto 001
(2024).

This kinda wrong, it's not the Waiting Room; the Waiting Room is a pocket dimension connected to the Eldritch Orchard. The Well Beyond Worlds/Eldritch Orchard is the highest plane of magic existence, existing beyond the Dream Dimension (Sleepwalker’s realm), which currently appears to be The Superflow itself. It is the source of all magic- so she is H1-A by creating The Well Beyond Worlds out of chaos.



(I know that in the VS Wiki, Marvel magic is still categorized as low 1-A, but it has shown potential for an upgrade. There are numerous examples, such as Gos Loki using magic to protect the Defenders and fighting the Beyonders, and Meggan Puceanu using magical forces in Otherworld to slow down the Chaos wave that is going to destroy all creation. Additionally, Dr. Strange's artifacts and various mystical realms demonstrate that Marvel magic deserves a significant revision for an upgrade.)

•Scarlet witch is freedom and with possibility as her parton, she became the Ultimate Nexus , a being that can influence or annihilate all possibilities and realities ,this being is unbeholded to the design Scarlet witch and Quicksilver #2.Power without limit, threaten to the set path by existing Scarlet witch and Quicksilver #4 .Was able to handle the Edge of reality. Overpowered the Griever at the end of all things and cast her throughout the myriad of realities.

She hasn’t become the Ultimate Nexus yet, but her feats are really impressive for handling the Edge of Reality and threaten to the Grand Design by existing.

So If " the Griever is m-body or not "is the issue, we can still use her other feats for her new key, 'The Living Darkhold,' because she still has many feats that could make her tier higher and she isn't the Ultimate Nexus yet ,such as threatening the Grand Design, containing Chthon and the Darkhold, managing the Edge, and creating the Eldritch Orchard/The Well Beyond Worlds. All of this should make the Living Darkhold Varies, Low1-A, up to H1-A

 

[BunBun]

4th cosmos was akin to Eternity so naturally she had m-bodies at the time. And usually Queen of Nevers never interacts with anything inside Eternity, just with him, thus portrayed as comparable.
And Phoenix here is specifically not the avatar, if I remember that issue correctly.

However, I don’t mind Griever not being M-body. Come to think of it, why would splitting her across realities be a hindrance if she is composed of Manifestation entities. Plus one can see some other contradicting things. But it won’t give Wanda higher tier, just downgrade Griever.

Phoenix in Defenders:Beyond is an avatar, in Immortal X-Men #18 it is stated that the True Phoenix is the White Hot Room itself. And how can you downgrade The Griever when she represents the end of all creation?

 

[MrKerf]

Phoenix in Defenders:Beyond is an avatar, in Immortal X-Men #18 it is stated that the True Phoenix is the White Hot Room itself. And how can you downgrade The Griever when she represents the end of all creation?

Weren't they directly in the white hot room at that point? Image lacks context.

Here's how it works.
Regular Abstracts have their true Multiversal selves, their true Universal selves (which exist in every universe), and M-Bodies (avatars for personal matters and such).
If we'd accept Griever as lacking M-Body, she'd be just Omniversal, with Multiversal avatar. So, the downgrade would be in removing one of the keys.
Additionally, her rating would then be "varies due to not being proficient at using her powers against mortals", so she wouldn't cause Wanda's upgrade.