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Kaiou1991

He/Him
64
66
Now all the Episode G and Lost Canvas materials have been removed from the Gold Saint, Mariner and Judge profiles there are some things I overlooked in my previous revision that need addressing and a feat I overlooked from Saintia Sho that applies to the main timeline Gold Saints.

After extensive conversations off-site, I have decided to focus on the feat before scaling and will save that for another thread.

Gold Saint-level characters clash and destroy "Another Dimension"

In Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho, a story currently accepted as taking place during the events of the Classic manga in the same timeline, Leo Aiolia gets trapped in Lemur's (Evil Saga) "Another Dimension. (Confirmation this is from Lemur).

Note: Aiolia is first encountered by an illusion of Aiolos but it is later revealed that Saga was behind it.

In this dimension, Aiolia is encountered by an illusion of first Aiolos and then himself, before clashing with this illusion causing the dimension to disappear.

Quantifying the feat:
"Another Dimension" is Gemini Saga's BFR technique wherein he sends his foes into another dimension. This dimension is often depicted as being large enough to house gas giants, stars in the distance and also multiple spiral galaxies. Which, based on visuals alone should warrant its destruction as 3-B, however, the 30th Anniversary art book confirms "Another Dimension" to be sending foes into another Universe.

This means Aiolia, and an illusion posing as him (and thus his equal) when clashed destroyed an entire universe with an omnidirectional clash from an unknown point inside "Another Dimension". As such, I propose Aiolia scale to 3-B.



The Libra weapons are currently rated as 2-A on Libra Dohko's profile. I think the reasoning for this is invalid for multiple reasons.

Current Justification: His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together. Which have survived blows from Hades sword, and attacks from Pontos. They also destroyed the pillars supporting the sea which are filled with Poseidon's Divine will and power)

Claim: "His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together." This statement is from Pegasus Seiya. This alone renders the statement as pure speculation on Seiya's part, but there's more. This statement was made at a point in the story where the Athena's Exclamation was not yet introduced, this wouldn't pose a problem had a Gold Saint made this statement as narratively, this is a technique that they are all very much aware of - Seiya however, is not a Gold Saint. At a point in time when he had not witnessed the combined power of 2 Gold Saints, has not witnessed the Athena's Exclamation, forget witnessing the power of all 12 Gold Saints, there's not a single point in Seiya's lifetime all 12 of them were even all in the same location. Thus, this statement should be regarded as unsupported speculation and dismissed.

Claim: "Which have survived blows from Hades sword" This feat comes from Lost Canvas, and doesn't apply to the main timelines Libra Weapons, as such, shouldn't be on this Dohko's profile.

Claim: "and attacks from Pontos." This reason is wrong for multiple reasons, but primarily, the Libra Shield that tanked blows from Pontos is from a different timeline so it doesn't scale to this Dohko's profile.

Claim: "They also destroyed the pillars supporting the sea which are filled with Poseidon's Divine will and power" This is probably the best evidence for 2-A Libra weapons as Poseidon is currently rated as 2-A, however, it should be noted context is important. Poseidon wasn't fully awakened until the end of the arc, so the pillars have no reason to scale to Poseidon's full AP - and since an unknown and unquantifiable amount of his Will supports the pillars we cannot quantify if the Libra Weapons breaking them is a 2-A feat or not.

With all this in mind, I think the Libra Weapons should lose their 2-A rating, as it's not supported by the scaling presented in Classic.

I propose we replace them with a "varies" tier on Dohko's profile as their power is largely dependent on the Cosmo of the user:

"... 黄金聖衣と同じ材質で作られているため、内部に光を蓄積することで、その破壊力は小宇宙の高まりに比例して上昇する。"

Translation: "...Because they are made from the same material as the Gold Cloths, and by accumulating light within them, their destructive power increases proportionally to the rise of the user's cosmo. "

Full context is provided in the imgur folder, however, this segment alone should be sufficient to prove that the tier of the Libra weapons is likely just greater than the Saint using them to an unknown degree.

Since the Libra Weapons are losing their 2-A ratings, Thanatos and Hypnos will also lose their 2-A ratings.

I am proposing that they upscale from the Three Judges as Pandora states the Judges are mere infants compared to the twin gods.


Firstly, I should preface his by saying that for the most part, Gold Saints are relative excluding the couple strongest and couple weakest. So whilst it might seem like there's some circular scaling here, in reality, the middle 8 or so Golds are incredibly close in power.

Gold Saints:

3-B:

Aries Mu: Mu is confident he could kill Aiolia if Aiolia committed treason, which should imply some level of them being relative.
Virgo Shaka: Eyes closed Shaka can engage in a thousand days war with Leo Aiolia, implying whilst Shaka has his eyes closed, they are equal.
Camus and Shura: make short work of Mu
Gemini Saga: is unfazed by Aiolia's lightning plasma even catching it whilst nearly dead.
Gemini Kanon (his justification remains unchanged)
Aries Shion (his justification remains unchanged)
Libra Dohko (his justification remains unchanged)
Sagittarius Aiolos: Kanon describes his Cosmo as "terrifyingly powerful", whilst dead.

4-C (loses their 4-A rating):
I couldn't find proof these Golds scale to any of the above characters, in attack potency, since they will no longer downscale from Gemini Saga, they will be straight 4-C for being able to "shatter stars".
Scorpio Milo
Sagittarius Aiolos
Taurus Aldebaran
Pisces Aphrodite
Cancer Deahmask

Judges: Keep their justifications but gain 3-B.

Mariners: All go down to 4-C except Krishna's second key which gets the 3-B rating.

Pandora should get 3-B (keeps her justification)

Bronze Saints: keep their justifications but gain 3-A if they scale to a 3-B Gold

I am open to changing this section if scans are provided to justify scaling to a 3-B Gold.

Agree: @Abu2411, @Hasty12345, @Danny33wise, @AlexZiggy, @AerrowStorm1, @StekFence, @KoolRay, @LordGriffin1000, @LuffyRuffy46307, @TheGreatBanana
Disagree:
 
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Spoiler: Part 1: Libra Weapons
I agree, not to mention the numerous anti-feats the Libra Weapons have.

Spoiler: Part 2: 3-A Leo Aiolia
Seems straightforward enough, I agree.

Spoiler: Part 3: Scaling Changes
As I was going through all the pages, I noticed everyone was scaled to a 7th Sense tier which got rid of all nuance in the scaling, I'm happy we're starting to rectify that with scaling chains, even if this is a minor step, it's a step in the right direction.

Since 7th Sense Hyoga, Seiya, Ikki and Shiryu beat Gold Saints on Aiolia's level, their 7th Sense Keys would be 3-A. So I think the Mariners end up 3-A and you might be able to downscale Aldebaran off of Sorrento for 3-A and Milo is confident he and Aiolia can defeat the Mariners, so you might get 3-A Milo from that?

You absolutely end up circular scaling, but all these characters outside of Shaka and Saga are supposed to be comparable anyway, I think Kurumada did it by design and their might even be WoG that supports the relativity of Gold Saint level characters.

It would be helpful if some of the other Saint Seiya supporters helped out with the inverse side of the scaling.
 
As I was going through all the pages, I noticed everyone was scaled to a 7th Sense tier which got rid of all nuance in the scaling, I'm happy we're starting to rectify that with scaling chains, even if this is a minor step, it's a step in the right direction.

Since 7th Sense Hyoga, Seiya, Ikki and Shiryu beat Gold Saints on Aiolia's level, their 7th Sense Keys would be 3-A. So I think the Mariners end up 3-A and you might be able to downscale Aldebaran off of Sorrento for 3-A and Milo is confident he and Aiolia can defeat the Mariners, so you might get 3-A Milo from that?

You absolutely end up circular scaling, but all these characters outside of Shaka and Saga are supposed to be comparable anyway, I think Kurumada did it by design and their might even be WoG that supports the relativity of Gold Saint level characters.

It would be helpful if some of the other Saint Seiya supporters helped out with the inverse side of the scaling.
I don't think we can scale all the Mariners to 3-A as they got one shot by the Bronzes when they attained their 7th Sense bar Kanon iirc.

I think they should remain 4-C for thematically being comparable to the weakest Golds at least. I don't even think Krishna should be 3-A, his second key has no scans and idr any statement that puts him "above most Golds", but Shiryu fought him in 7th Sense and 7th Sense Shiryu should be comparable to Shura. So the scaling is there.

Can I put you down as an agree with everything as is for now or should I make some changes to the proposal?

preferably if I'm going to change the proposal I'd like scans to justify the scaling unless it's already accepted scaling on the profiles)
 
I don't think we can scale all the Mariners to 3-A as they got one shot by the Bronzes when they attained their 7th Sense bar Kanon iirc.

I think they should remain 4-C for thematically being comparable to the weakest Golds at least. I don't even think Krishna should be 3-A, his second key has no scans and idr any statement that puts him "above most Golds", but Shiryu fought him in 7th Sense and 7th Sense Shiryu should be comparable to Shura. So the scaling is there.

Can I put you down as an agree with everything as is for now or should I make some changes to the proposal?

preferably if I'm going to change the proposal I'd like scans to justify the scaling unless it's already accepted scaling on the profiles)
Yeah, you can put me in full agreement for now.
 
It’s been 13 years, it’s believable that he could be power crept.
However, Kanon does state that aiolos who is just his cloth and will, and logically weaker then he was in life, is stronger then seiya and co well into the Poseidon arc, so he’d be 3-A
Also, all gold saints should scale to each other, as any combination of three gold saints could produce the AE, which implies a somewhat relative Cosmo, and definitely not one with hilariously large orders of magnitude of difference.
Also, Mu says that the reason gold saints are so strong is because of their 7th sense. So the reason Mu is a certain strength, is the same thing giving Deathmask his strength. The weaker gold saints should just downscale from aiolia. And logically, so should the mariners. They suck yes, but not that much.
 
Just a few things I want to point out, Aiolia did not use Lightning bolt his strongest technique he used lightning plasma.

Technically the three in terms of cosmo should be higher than normal given there senses were removed.

Milo did not take the full force of GE according to him.

Sagittarius Aiolos just considering when he was alive and classic only he was comparable to a young Saga for whatever that's worth, as a 8th sense soul he overpowered Aiolia and traveled through time and dimensions in ND.

And speaking of Mariners Isaac countered a held back GE so perhaps golds could scale from there.
 
Aiolos not scaling to the strongest Gold Saints is so dumb man.
I'd be happy to change it if you can prove he scales to a post-Poseidon arc anyone. That's the problem with being dead ig.

However, Kanon does state that aiolos who is just his cloth and will, and logically weaker then he was in life, is stronger then seiya and co well into the Poseidon arc, so he’d be 3-A
Can't wait to see the scans for this so I can add them to the OP.

Also, all gold saints should scale to each other, as any combination of three gold saints could produce the AE, which implies a somewhat relative Cosmo, and definitely not one with hilariously large orders of magnitude of difference.
Also, Mu says that the reason gold saints are so strong is because of their 7th sense. So the reason Mu is a certain strength, is the same thing giving Deathmask his strength. The weaker gold saints should just downscale from aiolia. And logically, so should the mariners. They suck yes, but not that much.
Downscaling from 2-A and baselining the 7th Sense to feats not all 7th sense users scale to aren't don't work. The baseline for the 7th Sense should be at the weakest viable scale for the 7th Sense which is "shattering stars" not destroying universes.

Just a few things I want to point out, Aiolia did not use Lightning bolt his strongest technique he used lightning plasma.
I'll change it.

Technically the three in terms of cosmo should be higher than normal given there senses were removed.
The scene in question does not imply that to be the case, Mu implies Aiolia shouldn't attack them because they're invalids etc (not to mention, being amped by sensory loss isn't a passive effect, it is something the Saints have to intentionally focus on doing. Tenbu Horin becomes a very useless ability if it just makes the opponents stronger) but I don't think it would change anything anyway, it's being used to scale Saga above Aiolia which isn't hard since ND reaffirms Gemini's are the strongest of the generation.

Milo did not take the full force of GE according to him.
4-C Milo works for me

Sagittarius Aiolos just considering when he was alive and classic only he was comparable to a young Saga for whatever that's worth, as a 8th sense soul he overpowered Aiolia and traveled through time and dimensions in ND.
All this scaling is prior to Aiolia performing the feat, so there's no way to scale off those feats. The only reason I did it with Shaka is because I'm lazy. But if I had to prove Shaka > Aiolia post-Sanctuary Arc, it wouldn't take very long. Sho definitely affirms Shaka > Aiolia.

And speaking of Mariners Isaac countered a held back GE so perhaps golds could scale from there.
Can't scale based on characters holding back.

Do you agree with the CRT?
 
The scene in question does not imply that to be the case, Mu implies Aiolia shouldn't attack them because they're invalids etc (not to mention, being amped by sensory loss isn't a passive effect, it is something the Saints have to intentionally focus on doing. Tenbu Horin becomes a very useless ability if it just makes the opponents stronger) but I don't think it would change anything anyway, it's being used to scale Saga above Aiolia which isn't hard since ND reaffirms Gemini's are the strongest of the generation.


Looking at raws it reads more that Mu thought it was odd that Shaka died and that everything had a deeper meaning as the reason for holding Aiolia back but yes Saga being stronger than Aiolia is proven enough just making things as correct as possible. .





Can't scale based on characters holding back.

Fair enough

Do you agree with the CRT?

Yes seems fine overall so yes @Kaiou1991
 
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Some small input from me if anyone cares even if I’m inactive.

All golds should be 3-A

Saint Seiya golden age is in our canon blog

It’s manga adjacent and takes place after Poseidon

聖士は希望の闘士として神話の時代から人々を守護 し続けている。季は空を引き裂き、贈りは大地を割る。彼等の力の源は人の心の奥底に眠る物であり、それは小宇宙と呼ばれる。小宇宙を燃焼させる事で宇宙間間の力と同じ犬爆発を起こし、彼等は人を超垣した現象を引き起こした。魂の爆発、それが聖闘士の間法であり真館。小宇宙の爆発力は物理法則を超え、原子の感壊すら可能とした。

As warriors of hope, the Saints have continued to protect people since the age of mythology. Their strikes tear apart the sky and split the earth. The source of their power lies deep within the human heart, and it is called 'Cosmos.' By igniting their Cosmos, they unleash an explosion of energy similar to the power of the universe's creation, causing phenomena beyond human comprehension. This soul explosion is the secret technique of the Saints. The explosive power of Cosmos surpasses the laws of physics, even capable of breaking down atoms."

By igniting their Cosmos (小宇宙を燃焼させる事), they unleash an explosion of energy (爆発を起こし) similar to the power of the universe's creation (宇宙間間の力と同じ), causing a superhuman phenomenon (現象).

That’s it God bless



Potential canon issues aside, this would be treated as a 2-A feat, not 3-A.
 
Claim: "His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together." This statement is from Pegasus Seiya. This alone renders the statement as pure speculation on Seiya's part, but there's more. This statement was made at a point in the story where the Athena's Exclamation was not yet introduced, this wouldn't pose a problem had a Gold Saint made this statement as narratively, this is a technique that they are all very much aware of - Seiya however, is not a Gold Saint. At a point in time when he had not witnessed the combined power of 2 Gold Saints, has not witnessed the Athena's Exclamation, forget witnessing the power of all 12 Gold Saints, there's not a single point in Seiya's lifetime all 12 of them were even all in the same location. Thus, this statement should be regarded as unsupported speculation and dismissed.
While you are correct that seiya does not know about the AE, Scylla io reiterates this, making seiyas statement a narrative device for Kuru filling us in on the strength of the pillars, so as to make it more dramatic. The addition of the ae afterwards isn’t in spite of this scenes existence, but just adds context on to how strong the Libra weapons are in the hands of a capable fighter and why their use is moderated.
So I’d probably support a rating of Varies, 2-A at max when in used by a 3-A.
At worst, they would be over 100x stronger then a gold saint since the comet fist does Jack squat and isn’t banned by Athena
 
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Mariners: All go down to 4-C except Krishna's second key which gets the 3-A rating.
Kaasa made shuns chain react to danger in such a way that he was deemed the strongest enemy shuns ever faced. In addition, he was capable of perfectly replicating Camus’s Cosmo in such a way that Hyoga couldn’t distinguish it from the real Camus. Shun at his max should scale to him tho, since when he was angered in behalf of his friends, he had the upper hand, tho they were capable of mutually taking each out. And Ikkis Cosmo was massive compared to Kaasas. (If you aren’t aware, Kaasa can replicate the appearance of others, but I’m not aware of anything saying he can replicate their power).
Isaacs frozen air was compared to Camus as well.
Sorrento was more powerful than a tired and injured shun, who was considered by Sorrento and Kanon to be powerful, alongside Ikki.
Io was the one who brought shun to that state to begin with, along with Kaasa
Krishna is considered stronger then Io and Baian since Kanon is shocked that “even Krishna was beaten”. This implies Io and Baian being comparably weaker then Krishna.
Kanon is equal to saga.

Mu and aiolia sensed the fights with Baian,io,Krishna,kaasa, annd Issac and thought the bronzes were ******. Aiolia and Milo also figured that “just” the two of them would let them clear the mariners. Now, Kanon hasn’t revealed himself yet, but this should put the surviving gold saints above every other mariner by the Poseidon arc. and gets Aldebaran into 3-A. He also got his ass whooped by sorrento, but he lived, and can one shot sorrento with Great Horn.


the 5 main bronzes should be 3-A, Far higher with the Gold bronze cloth. Definitely in that sanctuary arc Camus,Aiolia tier. Except for Ikki, who’s way higher. Shun possibly is too, at his full power.

So, Kaasa > Closed eyes Shaka who’s equal to sanctuary arc aiolia, who is the 3-A feat, since shun fought with shaka. It sounds dumb but yeah. Issac should scale to Camus, Sorrento scales far above dying shun, who Kanon considers to be powerful. Io and maybe Baian are roughly as strong as a stronger Shun. Krishna is stronger, and Kanon still is the strongest mariner, but they should all be 3-A.

Aiolia,Milo,Shaka,Aldebaran, and Mu should all scale far above the 3-A feat as well, since apparently kaasa is fodder. This affects the hades arc guys as well. Aphro and Dm should be scaling around Baian, since Baian is either weaker then golds, or about as strong as golds depending on Seiyas mood.
 
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After extensive discussions off-site with @Stek and other supporters, I have decided to postpone the scaling portion of this thread (including the Libra weapons).

his thread will be solely focussing on getting Aiolia's feat accepted.
 
Don't we split the value of these feats by half since two of them clashing caused it to shatter? They'd be 3-B/Multi-Galaxy level+, no? Or was the illusion he clashed with not actually real and so didn't contribute to the other universes destruction? Cause then that would be 3-A/Universe level.

The removal of the 2-A rating for Libra weapons looks okay, and I'm not knowledgeable on the series to give good feedback on who scales but if the knowledgeable SS users come to agreement on who scales, I'm fine with the conclusion.
 
Don't we split the value of these feats by half since two of them clashing caused it to shatter? They'd be 3-B/Multi-Galaxy level+, no? Or was the illusion he clashed with not actually real and so didn't contribute to the other universes destruction? Cause then that would be 3-A/Universe level.

The removal of the 2-A rating for Libra weapons looks okay, and I'm not knowledgeable on the series to give good feedback on who scales but if the knowledgeable SS users come to agreement on who scales, I'm fine with the conclusion.
Yeah they should be 3-B, my bad I was supposed to change it.

I'll change the post to a 3-B proposal and I'm assuming I can put you down as an agreement in that case?
 
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