Kaiou1991
He/Him- 86
- 77
After extensive conversations off-site, I have decided to focus on the feat before scaling and will save that for another thread.
Gold Saint-level characters clash and destroy "Another Dimension"
In Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho, a story currently accepted as taking place during the events of the Classic manga in the same timeline, Leo Aiolia gets trapped in Lemur's (Evil Saga) "Another Dimension. (Confirmation this is from Lemur).
Note: Aiolia is first encountered by an illusion of Aiolos but it is later revealed that Saga was behind it.
In this dimension, Aiolia is encountered by an illusion of first Aiolos and then himself, before clashing with this illusion causing the dimension to disappear.
Quantifying the feat:
"Another Dimension" is Gemini Saga's BFR technique wherein he sends his foes into another dimension. This dimension is often depicted as being large enough to house gas giants, stars in the distance and also multiple spiral galaxies. Which, based on visuals alone should warrant its destruction as 3-B, however, the 30th Anniversary art book confirms "Another Dimension" to be sending foes into another Universe.
This means Aiolia, and an illusion posing as him (and thus his equal) when clashed destroyed an entire universe with an omnidirectional clash from an unknown point inside "Another Dimension". As such, I propose Aiolia scale to 3-B.
The Libra weapons are currently rated as 2-A on Libra Dohko's profile. I think the reasoning for this is invalid for multiple reasons.
Current Justification: His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together. Which have survived blows from Hades sword, and attacks from Pontos. They also destroyed the pillars supporting the sea which are filled with Poseidon's Divine will and power)
Claim: "His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together." This statement is from Pegasus Seiya. This alone renders the statement as pure speculation on Seiya's part, but there's more. This statement was made at a point in the story where the Athena's Exclamation was not yet introduced, this wouldn't pose a problem had a Gold Saint made this statement as narratively, this is a technique that they are all very much aware of - Seiya however, is not a Gold Saint. At a point in time when he had not witnessed the combined power of 2 Gold Saints, has not witnessed the Athena's Exclamation, forget witnessing the power of all 12 Gold Saints, there's not a single point in Seiya's lifetime all 12 of them were even all in the same location. Thus, this statement should be regarded as unsupported speculation and dismissed.
Claim: "Which have survived blows from Hades sword" This feat comes from Lost Canvas, and doesn't apply to the main timelines Libra Weapons, as such, shouldn't be on this Dohko's profile.
Claim: "and attacks from Pontos." This reason is wrong for multiple reasons, but primarily, the Libra Shield that tanked blows from Pontos is from a different timeline so it doesn't scale to this Dohko's profile.
Claim: "They also destroyed the pillars supporting the sea which are filled with Poseidon's Divine will and power" This is probably the best evidence for 2-A Libra weapons as Poseidon is currently rated as 2-A, however, it should be noted context is important. Poseidon wasn't fully awakened until the end of the arc, so the pillars have no reason to scale to Poseidon's full AP - and since an unknown and unquantifiable amount of his Will supports the pillars we cannot quantify if the Libra Weapons breaking them is a 2-A feat or not.
With all this in mind, I think the Libra Weapons should lose their 2-A rating, as it's not supported by the scaling presented in Classic.
I propose we replace them with a "varies" tier on Dohko's profile as their power is largely dependent on the Cosmo of the user:
"... 黄金聖衣と同じ材質で作られているため、内部に光を蓄積することで、その破壊力は小宇宙の高まりに比例して上昇する。"
Translation: "...Because they are made from the same material as the Gold Cloths, and by accumulating light within them, their destructive power increases proportionally to the rise of the user's cosmo. "
Full context is provided in the imgur folder, however, this segment alone should be sufficient to prove that the tier of the Libra weapons is likely just greater than the Saint using them to an unknown degree.
Since the Libra Weapons are losing their 2-A ratings, Thanatos and Hypnos will also lose their 2-A ratings.
I am proposing that they upscale from the Three Judges as Pandora states the Judges are mere infants compared to the twin gods.
Current Justification: His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together. Which have survived blows from Hades sword, and attacks from Pontos. They also destroyed the pillars supporting the sea which are filled with Poseidon's Divine will and power)
Claim: "His Libra Weapons are stronger than the combined power of all 12 Gold Saints together." This statement is from Pegasus Seiya. This alone renders the statement as pure speculation on Seiya's part, but there's more. This statement was made at a point in the story where the Athena's Exclamation was not yet introduced, this wouldn't pose a problem had a Gold Saint made this statement as narratively, this is a technique that they are all very much aware of - Seiya however, is not a Gold Saint. At a point in time when he had not witnessed the combined power of 2 Gold Saints, has not witnessed the Athena's Exclamation, forget witnessing the power of all 12 Gold Saints, there's not a single point in Seiya's lifetime all 12 of them were even all in the same location. Thus, this statement should be regarded as unsupported speculation and dismissed.
Claim: "Which have survived blows from Hades sword" This feat comes from Lost Canvas, and doesn't apply to the main timelines Libra Weapons, as such, shouldn't be on this Dohko's profile.
Claim: "and attacks from Pontos." This reason is wrong for multiple reasons, but primarily, the Libra Shield that tanked blows from Pontos is from a different timeline so it doesn't scale to this Dohko's profile.
Claim: "They also destroyed the pillars supporting the sea which are filled with Poseidon's Divine will and power" This is probably the best evidence for 2-A Libra weapons as Poseidon is currently rated as 2-A, however, it should be noted context is important. Poseidon wasn't fully awakened until the end of the arc, so the pillars have no reason to scale to Poseidon's full AP - and since an unknown and unquantifiable amount of his Will supports the pillars we cannot quantify if the Libra Weapons breaking them is a 2-A feat or not.
With all this in mind, I think the Libra Weapons should lose their 2-A rating, as it's not supported by the scaling presented in Classic.
I propose we replace them with a "varies" tier on Dohko's profile as their power is largely dependent on the Cosmo of the user:
"... 黄金聖衣と同じ材質で作られているため、内部に光を蓄積することで、その破壊力は小宇宙の高まりに比例して上昇する。"
Translation: "...Because they are made from the same material as the Gold Cloths, and by accumulating light within them, their destructive power increases proportionally to the rise of the user's cosmo. "
Full context is provided in the imgur folder, however, this segment alone should be sufficient to prove that the tier of the Libra weapons is likely just greater than the Saint using them to an unknown degree.
Since the Libra Weapons are losing their 2-A ratings, Thanatos and Hypnos will also lose their 2-A ratings.
I am proposing that they upscale from the Three Judges as Pandora states the Judges are mere infants compared to the twin gods.
Firstly, I should preface his by saying that for the most part, Gold Saints are relative excluding the couple strongest and couple weakest. So whilst it might seem like there's some circular scaling here, in reality, the middle 8 or so Golds are incredibly close in power.
Gold Saints:
3-B:
Aries Mu: Mu is confident he could kill Aiolia if Aiolia committed treason, which should imply some level of them being relative.
Virgo Shaka: Eyes closed Shaka can engage in a thousand days war with Leo Aiolia, implying whilst Shaka has his eyes closed, they are equal.
Camus and Shura: make short work of Mu
Gemini Saga: is unfazed by Aiolia's lightning plasma even catching it whilst nearly dead.
Gemini Kanon (his justification remains unchanged)
Aries Shion (his justification remains unchanged)
Libra Dohko (his justification remains unchanged)
Sagittarius Aiolos: Kanon describes his Cosmo as "terrifyingly powerful", whilst dead.
4-C (loses their 4-A rating):
I couldn't find proof these Golds scale to any of the above characters, in attack potency, since they will no longer downscale from Gemini Saga, they will be straight 4-C for being able to "shatter stars".
Scorpio Milo
Sagittarius Aiolos
Taurus Aldebaran
Pisces Aphrodite
Cancer Deahmask
Judges: Keep their justifications but gain 3-B.
Mariners: All go down to 4-C except Krishna's second key which gets the 3-B rating.
Pandora should get 3-B (keeps her justification)
Bronze Saints: keep their justifications but gain 3-A if they scale to a 3-B Gold
I am open to changing this section if scans are provided to justify scaling to a 3-B Gold.
Gold Saints:
3-B:
Aries Mu: Mu is confident he could kill Aiolia if Aiolia committed treason, which should imply some level of them being relative.
Virgo Shaka: Eyes closed Shaka can engage in a thousand days war with Leo Aiolia, implying whilst Shaka has his eyes closed, they are equal.
Camus and Shura: make short work of Mu
Gemini Saga: is unfazed by Aiolia's lightning plasma even catching it whilst nearly dead.
Gemini Kanon (his justification remains unchanged)
Aries Shion (his justification remains unchanged)
Libra Dohko (his justification remains unchanged)
Sagittarius Aiolos: Kanon describes his Cosmo as "terrifyingly powerful", whilst dead.
4-C (loses their 4-A rating):
I couldn't find proof these Golds scale to any of the above characters, in attack potency, since they will no longer downscale from Gemini Saga, they will be straight 4-C for being able to "shatter stars".
Scorpio Milo
Sagittarius Aiolos
Taurus Aldebaran
Pisces Aphrodite
Cancer Deahmask
Judges: Keep their justifications but gain 3-B.
Mariners: All go down to 4-C except Krishna's second key which gets the 3-B rating.
Pandora should get 3-B (keeps her justification)
Bronze Saints: keep their justifications but gain 3-A if they scale to a 3-B Gold
I am open to changing this section if scans are provided to justify scaling to a 3-B Gold.
Agree: @Abu2411, @Hasty12345, @Danny33wise, @AlexZiggy, @AerrowStorm1, @StekFence, @KoolRay, @LordGriffin1000, @LuffyRuffy46307, @TheGreatBanana, @TheUnshakableOne, @Cindrallig7, @Kumagawaa, @ActuallySpaceMan42, @Sage_God_Slayer
Disagree:
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