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Gemini Saga Upgrade / Sagittarius Aiolos Downgrade

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Currently, this is described on Aiolos' profile:
This is simply outdated and inaccurate. Saga is stronger than Aiolos.

Exhibit A:
e52d21e3b797e3d460ebb2c33a71ebc7.jpg


In Zero (a prequel that covers Aiolos' story which is completely canon as it is written by Kurumada himself and was even added to the original manga itself in the volume version of Saint Seiya Final Edition), when contemplating the successor to the Pope, it's shown that is unanimously agreed by the Gold Saints that Saga and Aiolos are the top 2 among them, between whom which they are indecisive as to who is the best. After this meeting, IN PRIVATE (so please no nonsense like "H-h-h-e was just being humble), Aiolos goes up to Saga, and by his own admission, admits that Saga is his superior in every quality mentioned at the meeting, which explicitly included power.

Saga>Aiolos.

Exhibit B:

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A Saint of Saga's era also confirms that the Gemini is revered as the strongest among the Gold Saints.

And more importantly, Asclepius himself confirms this as well. This is most the credible confirmation of them all, perhaps even moreso than Aiolos himself.
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Asclepius can and has observed the entire universe and all the moments in space-time up to end of the Hades chapter (he saw Saori traveling to their era before she did, and we can also see wheelchair Seiya from his perspective. Despite this, besides himself obviously, he confirms that the Gemini have remained the strongest per generation and never indicates any exception to this, despite the fact he would know absolutely everything about both Aiolos and Saga, and is also the superior to every Gold Saint in history.

A completely infallible, unbiased confirmation of Saga>Aiolos.

About the current justifications on Aiolos' page:

They're all based on nothing but statements from other Gold Saints and a guidebook simply reiterating these statements, basing it's information off them.

As Zero shows, in reality, even during the last times they had been together with Saga and Aiolos (promptly after, Saga's evil side took over and killed Pope Shion and became the Pope in secret while everyone thought he went "missing", while Aiolos was banished from Sanctuary by Pope Saga framed as a traitor, and died from his injuries by Shura shortly later) they were in complete indecision over who's actually stronger between Saga and Aiolos, and these statements are nothing but just speculative hype for the character, and nothing objective as they themselves have said.

Suffice to say, what Aiolos himself confirms in private, and Asclepius' confirmation>>>>> completely not credible, speculative hype from characters who admitted they don't actually know.

Proposal:

Aiolos: "Likely higher" is removed altogether, and the explanation of him being the strongest Gold Saint is replaced with something like "inferior to only the Gemini Twins Saga and Kanon"
Saga: "Likely higher" is added, and an explanation of him being the strongest Gold Saint of his generation is added.
 
I don’t mind. It changes next to nothing and it’s not like a 13 year old Aiolos has any reason to be comparable to a 30 year old Saga.
 
he confirms that the Gemini have remained the strongest per generation and never indicates any exception to this,
I would say that the scan shows that Geminis are often the strongest, more then Always. Because it says Several, rather then every or all. Since it says several, there were Or will be cases where gemini isn’t the absolute strongest.
Ikkis statement is simply that Cain fits the rule, not that anybody else does. This doesn’t actually say anything about saga. But if it were, Ikkis statement only means that Saga was superior to 20th century gold Saints that Ikki has fought, or seen fight. This is basically just shaka. Now, if this was literally any other of the main bronzes saying it, then yeah I could see this meaning Saga is > Aiolos, because they witnessed all twelve burning their Cosmo to the limit at the wailing wall.

However, I would also say it’s highly likely that Even if Aiolos was stronger, it was by a close margin. And so to say Saga couldn’t overcome that gap in 13 years is kinda iffy.
 
@StekFence What Ikki says about the rule is the opinion of Sanctuary as he indicates, not just his own judgement ("is said to be"). If he has heard this in his era it has grounds to be applied to Saga as that statement is unanimous for the Saints in general and never limited to certain generation (s).

And also, I'd see your point about Asclepius' statement based on the english scan, however, (sorry maybe I should've posted this but since this forum is English speaking I thought it would be best to default to the english one), the main Spanish translation (I think we can all agree that the main Spanish translation of this manga is almost always more accurate than the English one) shows that this was worded as "generation to generation", which obviously includes every generation of the Gold Saints.

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Even in the original version, we can see that the Spanish version being more accurate is confirmed, when he phrase used is specifically just 代々, which is cited in japanese sources as translating generation to generation; generation after generation (just like the spanish translation) and such a phrase is not a limiting scope, and indicates this applies to all the generations of Gold Saints in general, which makes more sense with Ikkis statement about what is said by Sanctuary, than "several generations" which is simply a mistranslation.

Aiolos was never even stronger back then as he admits himself with no ulterior motive behind saying so and nothing more credible than himself to prove otherwise, and yes, the margin was so small that the other Gold Saints didn't know who was stronger between them.
 
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I agree with this.

Aiolos: "Likely higher" is removed altogether, and the explanation of him being the strongest Gold Saint is replaced with something like "inferior to only the Gemini Twins Saga and Kanon".
The comparison of Aiolos and Saga occurs when both were 14 and 15 years old and the rest of the Gold Saints were very young, so it is not known if Aiolos was only weaker than Saga or this changed when the rest of the Gold Saints also developed their abilities to the maximum. Saga is described as the strongest, but in the case of Aiolos we do not know what his position was among the Gold Saints, although there are some clues that might indicate that he was considerably strong even in this rank, as Seiya with his help was able to return the Lightning Bolt of Aiolia and Kanon describes his cosmos (the cosmos in the Sagittarius Cloth) as powerful.
 
Very good point to make, I should probably edit that description. Thanks.

"At least 3-C, possibly Low 2-C: Was only second to Gemini Saga when he was alive, and although his current status among the Gold Saints is unknown, his soul's power was enough to deflect Aiolia's Lightning Bolt and aid Seiya in his fight against him."



I think this one is better now.
 
I see your point. Aiolos was young when he died, and during that time period he might have been the strongest. But by the time Classic starts Saga could well be the stronger than Aiolos at that point in time.

Some issues I have wtih this though

Shaka in Taizen is stated to be the strongest.

Shaka did molly whomp Saga, and 2 other Gold Saints without even trying.

Iirc in the classic Saga himself stated something about Dohko and Mu (separate statements) being able to stomp him, or solo the other gold saints along wtih Saga (himself included) both statements are from Saga.

Scaling wise, if you want Saga to be stronger than Shaka then he would end up straight up 3-A (low 2-C) to 2-B

Technically speaking though. The Sagittarius Bow is special and wouldn't scale to physical attacks and its likely at least 2-C for being a special divine weapon capable of destroying or at least significantly harming Gods.

Galaxian Explosion is stated to be "the most destructive technique" but thats also because iirc its the only Gold Saint technque that makes an explosion. Where as most other Gold Saints rely on straight up hax.

i find most statements of "I am the strongest Gold Saint" to be bs imo

I'll admit i didn't read much of your post in the OP though due to some time related issues with IRL Stuff
 
Iirc in the classic Saga himself stated something about Dohko and Mu (separate statements) being able to stomp him, or solo the other gold saints along wtih Saga (himself included) both statements are from Saga.
Cain (18th century) > Dohko (18th century) > Saga (20th century)

Saga being the strongest of his generation holds true even if Dohko is stronger.
 
Cain (18th century) > Dohko (18th century) > Saga (20th century)

Saga being the strongest of his generation holds true even if Dohko is stronger.
i don't think that's what the OP is trying to say, and i find it hard to believe Saga is even the strongest of his generation considering the way Shaka treated him.

There was also some statement about how if Mu and dohko teamed up the would wipe out the sanctuary and it would be a blood war and that was coming from Saga.

This would also make Saga and Cain both > the Agyo and Unagyo Virgos
 
I see your point. Aiolos was young when he died, and during that time period he might have been the strongest. But by the time Classic starts Saga could well be the stronger than Aiolos at that point in time.

Some issues I have wtih this though

Shaka in Taizen is stated to be the strongest.

Shaka did molly whomp Saga, and 2 other Gold Saints without even trying.

Iirc in the classic Saga himself stated something about Dohko and Mu (separate statements) being able to stomp him, or solo the other gold saints along wtih Saga (himself included) both statements are from Saga.

Scaling wise, if you want Saga to be stronger than Shaka then he would end up straight up 3-A (low 2-C) to 2-B

Technically speaking though. The Sagittarius Bow is special and wouldn't scale to physical attacks and its likely at least 2-C for being a special divine weapon capable of destroying or at least significantly harming Gods.

Galaxian Explosion is stated to be "the most destructive technique" but thats also because iirc its the only Gold Saint technque that makes an explosion. Where as most other Gold Saints rely on straight up hax.

i find most statements of "I am the strongest Gold Saint" to be bs imo

I'll admit i didn't read much of your post in the OP though due to some time related issues with IRL Stuff
Nah, as proven in the post, even when Aiolos was alive, Saga was already still stronger and there is absolutely no credible basis for Aiolos>Saga, and all the credible input up to now is in favor for Saga.

This is simply not true, absolutely never did he describe Mu or Dohko being able to stomp him. I don't even remember any such Mu hype from Saga in the original manga, and this is all he said about Dohko.
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Saga: "The Libra Gold Saint lives on the Peak of the Five Elders in China... He may already be a few hundred years old, but he is still the most terrible man, who prides himself on being the most powerful." among the Saints."

天秤座 黄金 聖闘 士 は 中国 五 峰 に いる すでに 数 百 を 過ぎ て いる はず が 聖闘 士 の 中 で も 最強 の 実力 を 誇る 誇る 最も 恐る べき べき 男)
Saga only mentioned that he prides himself on being the most powerful and iterates what Dohko thinks, this never indicates that he himself believes or agrees with this notion. And even if he did, it's a non-issue since as another user mentioned, Dohko is not part of Saga's generation.


And I wonder why these people completely ignore the context/timing of this statement so much to take it as factually Saga indicating Dohko>himself, when literally when Saga said this at the time he was still under the guise of the imposter Pope with the "Gemini Saga" identity still being assumed missing many years ago by the character he tells this to (Aiolia) and it's not even from a Saga himself perspective.......
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As for the Taizen, it's literally from 2001 and is outdated and invalidated by the ongoing canon now, which takes precedence where it's confirmed multiple times the Gemini are the strongest generation to generation by a character who perceives the entire universe and all of space-time to the future. Ikki also confirms that the Sanctuary of his era crown Gemini as the strongest. So the Taizen can be discarded o this matter, if it even means that in the first place, recent canon>>>>>>an outdated guidebook.

Shaka only contends with them due to the ability of Tenbu Horin, this is not anything for strength.

If you read the post you can clearly see why Saga being the strongest has far more credible evidence than anyone else.
 
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And I wonder why these people completely ignore the context/timing of this statement so much to take it as factually Saga indicating Dohko>himself, when literally when Saga said this at the time he was still under the guise of the imposter Pope with the "Gemini Saga" identity still being assumed missing many years ago by the character he tells this to (Aiolia) and it's not even from a Saga himself perspective.......
because tertiary material corroborates that interpretation through prime Shion being stated above Saga, and prime Dohko ~ Shion. Prime Shion and Dohko being > Saga contradicts nothing and nothing concretely places Saga above them, given Cain exists and follows the pattern.
 
I would have some issues with it (mainly about the use of the Taizen), but fair enough, let's just leave it at that since it's a non-issue for Saga>Aiolos per the premise of this thread.
 
I would have some issues with it (mainly about the use of the Taizen), but fair enough, let's just leave it at that since it's a non-issue for Saga>Aiolos per the premise of this thread.
I suspect you have issues with a lot of things.
 
Your misunderstanding the core of Shaka's character. Shaka can see the true character of an individual such as if their good and evil. This was already hinted at with Mu seeing them crying blood. Shaka knew they weren't fully evil, and knew they had ulterior motives. Heck, a Galaxian Explosion is only enough power to destroy Shaka's illusions. Which is considerably lower than most of his other abilities. Tenma Kofuku scared other Gold Saints including Specter Shion.

Even when caught in Tenbu Horin Shaka was giving them plenty of time to think, act, talk, etc. Dude was just playing with them.

Mu Hype i would have to go find it but i know it exist. im not a good spot to do that atm.

I only disagree with Saga being the strongest Gold Saint of his generation. but him being > Aiolos in physical stats i can agree with.

Also Snake-God seeing all things in the universe is a mistranslations. i just wanna say that becuaes it bothers the crap out of me every time i see it brought up.
 
I echo Hasty's sentiment that this really doesn't much. But it's also worth noting that Saga is never said to have the highest Cosmo among the 12, that honour going to Shaka iirc.
 
Your misunderstanding the core of Shaka's character. Shaka can see the true character of an individual such as if their good and evil. This was already hinted at with Mu seeing them crying blood. Shaka knew they weren't fully evil, and knew they had ulterior motives. Heck, a Galaxian Explosion is only enough power to destroy Shaka's illusions. Which is considerably lower than most of his other abilities. Tenma Kofuku scared other Gold Saints including Specter Shion.

Even when caught in Tenbu Horin Shaka was giving them plenty of time to think, act, talk, etc. Dude was just playing with them.

Mu Hype i would have to go find it but i know it exist. im not a good spot to do that atm.

I only disagree with Saga being the strongest Gold Saint of his generation. but him being > Aiolos in physical stats i can agree with.

Also Snake-God seeing all things in the universe is a mistranslations. i just wanna say that becuaes it bothers the crap out of me every time i see it brought up.
Everything you describe for Shaka is literally hax abilities, not power.

He is >>Aiolos in every single way as Aiolos himself admits. And ND has hammered home Saga>Shaka in power until further notice. Shaka contending with him with special hax abilities simply isn't a power feat.

And how is it a mistranslation?

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It simply uses a different phrase, Japanese and English/Spanish can never be correlated absolutely 1:1 being different languages, so just because it doesn't say 宇宙 doesn't mean it can't be taken as universe, when the phrase used is literally 森羅万象, which is literally "all of creation" (and some sources even cite that universe can be derived as a meaning from it, similar to how 世界 "world" is cited as universe being a possible translation to take from it due it's scope).

964a977bba6468ab5e2d256f6af5bb06.png


This is why even Shadow Scanlations puts it as universe here, and literally, if we just simply examine into the context, Asclepius is perceiving and making note of universe affecting phenomenons, and also seeing far and across the space-time itself. So this is not a mistranslation or inaccurate any way, and at worst being nitpicky it should've been worded as "all of creation" instead of "universe", which doesn't change anything.


I echo Hasty's sentiment that this really doesn't much. But it's also worth noting that Saga is never said to have the highest Cosmo among the 12, that honour going to Shaka iirc.
It is still an important revision to make, since Aiolos being cited as >Saga is completely false information, and it also warranted him a "likely higher" rating above their tier, when in reality Saga is the one who deserves this rating, as he is stronger than Aiolos and all the Gold Saints of his generation. No, the Gemini is confirmed many times to be the strongest and most powerful so Saga>>Shaka, the ongoing manga>>>>>>old outdated guidebooks.
 
I disagree, that's a ridiculous change in scope.
It depends on context and perspective I suppose and it's never made precise the entire scope of Asclepius' clairvoyance, however it is confirmed at the very least he observes the entire main universe and space-time for it since he sees the future of the universe too, so the point made is still valid.
 
It depends on context and perspective I suppose and it's never made precise the entire scope of Asclepius' clairvoyance, however it is confirmed at the very least he observes the entire main universe and space-time for it since he sees the future of the universe too, so the point made is still valid.
An argument can be made it holds true for all branching futures of Classic as well, therefore not only are Gemini's more powerful in the primary timeline, but all variations of said timeline.
 
ND never hammered home Shaka > Saga. Otherwise we would have Cain and Saga > Thanatos and Hypnos because Ikki's statement.

That would also make Saga and Cain 2-B.

Shaka has more Cosmo than Saga and that stays true even in ND.

Galaxian Explosion requires the Gemini Saint to use their full power. So Saga's Full power is > Shakas Illusions because Shaka wasn't putting that much effort into them. its a lower skill. UES is established in the series and holds true even in ND. More Cosmo = More Hax potency and resistance = More Ap.

Edit: I was thinking of the wrong Raw. The raw that commonly gets mistranslated is one where the whole "universe will fracture" when it actually says macrocosmo

also i talked to a native japanese guy about the scan you posted and it actually does mean "All of creation" because of the context of the series is a multiverse. (this was about a year and half ago.)
 
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Yes it did, when literally it's confirmed multiple times that the Gemini Saint is the strongest.

Shaka's illusions are hax abilities and the level of illusions (whatever that even means) has nothing to do with strength as they are hax and even if they are based on the same power system, drawing a 1:1 comparison between how much cosmo a raw power technique uses and a hax technique uses doesn't follow since they are of completely different orders, and these illusions don't have a literal physical durability or anything like that to compare it.

If Saga is the strongest Gold Saint, he has the highest cosmo, and the Taizen was simply wrong on an outdated statement made over a decade before new canon information was confirmed in ND, nothing surprising.
 
Yes it did, when literally it's confirmed multiple times that the Gemini Saint is the strongest.

Shaka's illusions are hax abilities and the level of illusions (whatever that even means) has nothing to do with strength as they are hax and even if they are based on the same power system, drawing a 1:1 comparison between how much cosmo a raw power technique uses and a hax technique uses doesn't follow since they are of completely different orders, and these illusions don't have a literal physical durability or anything like that to compare it.

If Saga is the strongest Gold Saint, he has the highest cosmo, and the Taizen was simply wrong on an outdated statement made over a decade before new canon information was confirmed in ND, nothing surprising.
One fact in this part, the description of Taizen seems to be general, so it is likely that they are describing Shaka with the 8th sense, something that we don't know where in the story of the original manga he awakened or mastered this sense. Kurumada mentions in an interview in the middle of the Poseidon Arc that Shaka had awakened a higher sense and that this would be key to the story. And if we rely on Saintia Sho, it seems that he acquired it after the Sanctuary Arc and before the Poseidon Arc, where he gained a superior knowledge of existence.

Saga is stronger than Shaka before the 8th sense, but he surpassed the strength he had in the Sanctuary Arc after acquiring this sense, even Ikki (who fought Shaka in the Sanctuary Arc) considers that Shijima may be stronger than Shaka, but Shijima himself admits to being inferior to Shaka (even a fraction of Shaka equaled Shijima's power without problems) and that Shaka is the most powerful Virgo Saint of all time, the closest man to god that has ever existed.

The mention of Shaka as the Saint with the highest cosmos among the Gold Saints is not incorrect and neither is the mention of Saga as the strongest among the Gold Saints, but we must understand the context and where in the story they described these two characters in that way.
 
@Lancelot_de_Cancer

I greatly appreciate this clarification. I had believed it could just be contradictory since I have never actually seen that quote myself and how users represent it indicated to me they think it means Shaka was always >Saga (which is nonsense), but yeah if that’s what it actually refers to, it doesn’t seem contradictory in reality since this is the case (that it describes 8th sense Shaka).
 
So, if this edit is fine to be done, can someone who knows kindly do the favor of doing so, since I have no idea how.
 
I see, can someone tag those users so they can read this proposal, I don't know who they are or which of them follow Saint Seiya.
 
Unshakable makes sense to me.
So then maybe a revision can also be made to Shaka's profile too, to add something like "temporarily he was the Gold Saint with the highest cosmo thanks to awakening the 8th sense first", since this doesn't affect Saga's upgrade to the strongest Gold Saint or Aiolos being downgraded.
 
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