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Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

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Ultima_Reality said:
Abraxas is specifically the personification of the destruction that acts as a counterbalance to the act of creation that Multi-Eternity represents, and is such an integral part of existence that Reed needed to reboot Eternity entirely to get rid of him. Given those things, I think he's pretty easily High 1-A.
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Does he have the same keys of Eternity? M-Body, universal and multiversal, or he's straight up H1-A?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Abraxas is depicted as a purely multiversal entity in the storyline he appears in, so he is just flat High 1-A, yeah.
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I think Oblivion should get Transduality type 3 back and as well every character above him. Chaos king represents wuji which qualifies for type 3.
 
Gasper said:
I think Oblivion should get Transduality type 3 back and as well every character above him. Chaos king represents wuji which qualifies for type 3.
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Wuji as defined in Marvel's Encyclopedia of Gods is really nothing like the real life philosophical concept, so I don't think that's eligible for Type 3. That said: I suppose Type 3 is fine, yeah, since the In-Betweener is described as being both the union of dualities and as something that is excluded from all polarities, so the higher planes beyond the omniverse, at least, would fit the bill for Type 3.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Wuji as defined in Marvel's Encyclopedia of Gods is really nothing like the real life philosophical concept, so I don't think that's eligible for Type 3. That said: I suppose Type 3 is fine, yeah, since the In-Betweener is described as being both the union of dualities and as something that is excluded from all polarities, so the higher planes beyond the omniverse, at least, would fit the bill for Type 3.
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I see.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I'm not sure saying "Only the continuum was accepted as infinite" is a terribly relevant distinction, seeing as the text you've quoted says we consider the universe to be infinite in all spatial directions as well, not just the temporal one. Sounds more like it's saying Marvel's "observable universe" is a trillion lightyears in radius, but the full universe is infinite.

Not sure how this pans out, when it comes to feats. Do we require clarification that feats affected the entire universe, and not just the observable one, or? If so, I suppose can remove the "shaking the universe" bit.
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As for this, I've decided to keep the universe-shaking feats in the 3-C end, seeing as the aim here should be changing the Herald tier profiles as little as possible. So this would involve just replacing "2-C at peak" with "High 3-A" at peak and inserting in the appropriate feats.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Did so.

Anyway: What is left to do here, exactly? Do I have full-on approval to apply the accepted changes? At most, the only thing left to further discuss are what to do with the Never-Queen and whether Hercules and Beta Ray Bill's universe-shaking feats are eligible for High 3-A, both of which are subjects of decent relevance but that otherwise hold no bearing in the overall proposals, so, yeah.
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Eseseso said:
How come you lowered True Oblivion's Transduality from Type 3 (his current profile) to Type 2 (your sandbox)?
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Eseseso said:
1. For Possession on Molecule Man's profile, IMO it could also be Mind Manipulation since he takes over the minds of his victims.

2. Some more stuff for the Molecule Man's AP include:

Click to expand...
 
Ultima_Reality said:
That said: I suppose Type 3 is fine, yeah, since the In-Betweener is described as being both the union of dualities and as something that is excluded from all polarities, so the higher planes beyond the omniverse, at least, would fit the bill for Type 3.
Click to expand...
To further support this, I would also like to mention that in Silver Surfer Volume #3, Galactus is shown as standing in opposition to the In-Betweener, lacking duality altogether.
Which could be used to grant type 3 transduality to Eternity or those whose standing is greater than Galactus and the In-Betweener, but that would be more for others to deliberate on.
 
Imo Chaos king should get a new key called "Ginnungagap" which acts like Abstracts true form and should be tier High 1-A for existing outside of Multi-Eternity.
 
Gasper said:
Imo Chaos king should get a new key called "Ginnungagap" which acts like Abstracts true form and should be tier High 1-A for existing outside of Multi-Eternity.
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Actually, shouldn’t chaos king just be put into oblivions profile or something? Isn’t he just like an aspect of him or something?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Wuji as defined in Marvel's Encyclopedia of Gods is really nothing like the real life philosophical concept, so I don't think that's eligible for Type 3. That said: I suppose Type 3 is fine, yeah, since the In-Betweener is described as being both the union of dualities and as something that is excluded from all polarities, so the higher planes beyond the omniverse, at least, would fit the bill for Type 3.
Click to expand...
The Wuji was pretty clearly described as the Void preceding the Yin and the yang, that is pretty consistent with the description from what I've seen.
 
Eseseso said:
1. Support for the Watchers being High 1-B in their AP justification can be how when a weakened Aron the Rogue Watcher fought Uatu in Fantastic Four #400, their war spread across "A thousand planes of reality" and "The infinite rivers of reality". So the 2nd statement is blatantly 2-A while the first one is at least baseline 2-B but likely high into 1-B.
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IMO this would be really good to add on Uatu's profile as a support for him being High 1-B. Especially the "thousand planes of reality" part since while that could seem like Baseline 2-B it could also be interpreted as very high into 1-B.
 
Eseseso said:
I mean, it's kind of a given.

A young Franklin stomped a Amped Mephisto in Hell (so Hell Amp plus another amp), and adult Franklin fought the Mad Celestials.

Heck, Doctor Doom even said that if he absorbed Young Franklin's power, he could "handle" the Celestials on his own.
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I didn't mean adult Franklin, his was clear as per he's greater than galactus
I meant kid Franklin, so this means Mephisto himself will also scale to H1B

What of those who rule over splinter dimensions, beings like Nightmare, Tiboro, etc. I assume they would also be getting a H1B tier rating

I remember Thor destroying Exitar with the god bomb, shouldn't that be H1B too
 
Kage said:
I didn't mean adult Franklin, his was clear as per he's greater than galactus
I meant kid Franklin, so this means Mephisto himself will also scale to H1B

What of those who rule over splinter dimensions, beings like Nightmare, Tiboro, etc. I assume they would also be getting a H1B tier rating

I remember Thor destroying Exitar with the god bomb, shouldn't that be H1B too
Click to expand...
Well Doom said that Kid Franklin's power was enough to handle the Celestials so still High 1-B.
 
Eseseso said:
Will Part 3 also discuss Elder Gods like Gaea, Set (aka the Serpent), and Chthon?

I just want to know what tier they are.

@Ultima_Reality
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

Well, ******* finally. As it stands, this thread will largely only discuss scaling and presentation of profiles, so, those who are not interested in this are free to ignore it. I'm also not terribly sure if this is controversial enough to warrant being moved to the Staff Discussion board, as...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Setsuna_tenma said:
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

Well, ******* finally. As it stands, this thread will largely only discuss scaling and presentation of profiles, so, those who are not interested in this are free to ignore it. I'm also not terribly sure if this is controversial enough to warrant being moved to the Staff Discussion board, as...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
Thank you!
Ultima_Reality said:
The Elder Gods being High 1-A is fairly consistent in more recent renditions, yeah. Gaea has been described as the true wellspring of the multiverse since Chaos War, Scarlet Witch Annual says Chthon's uncontrolled power would bring about destruction worse than anything Wanda's ever done (And she's responsible for the Chaos Wave), and more recently Immortal Thor has described them as entities beyond the stories of the multiverse. I think Set and Khonshu are referred to as a multiverse-spanning beings, too.

The big hurdle is largely fitting Oshtur into all of this, since she is decidedly depicted as much, much lower than the above in the vast majority of times. But this is a topic for the next thread, anyway.
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This will be...useful.
 
Eseseso said:
I mean, it's kind of a given.

A young Franklin stomped a Amped Mephisto in Hell (so Hell Amp plus another amp), and adult Franklin fought the Mad Celestials.

Heck, Doctor Doom even said that if he absorbed Young Franklin's power, he could "handle" the Celestials on his own.
Click to expand...
He should in all honesty be higher than High 1-B in some variations (specifically Heroes Reborn: The Return onwards):

  • Early version of Franklin during the In-Betweener vs Galactus fight is directly stated as being able to stop them if he had his powers at the time.
  • Despite the existence of several higher than High 1-B Mutants in the Continuity, Marvel has made it an ample point to consistently regard Franklin as the most powerful mutant in history/existence by a multitude of statements. History of the Marvel Universe confirms this as absolute fact, despite the person who said it (Galactus) knowing the entire history of the Marvel Universe.
  • "Stated that his power might destroy the Multiverse" in the same set run of comics that details that the 'Multiverse' being Multi-Eternity. Context of the statement was when Roma was explaining to the Fantastic Four about Franklin, she was describing that Franklin had no real control over his powers and as a result he could end up destroying Everything without meaning to.
  • Indirectly harms the above Eternity with his powers when reviving Galactus (Abraxas Run), even when it's shown that he wasn't even intending to do harm to said Eternity.
  • (Abraxas Run) Fraknlin's Revived Galactus harms Abraxas despite his direct comparison to Eternity in that run, being something that is in-fact able to affect Multi-Eternity himself.
  • (Abraxas Run) Franklin's powers are regarded as a "Threat to All There Is" by Uatu in the same comics as the above, specifically directly after Abraxas is defeated.
  • Protected Heroes Reborn from Tiamut, who in the same weakened state was Reality Warping All of Creation. Same coninuity of comics as above , so All of Creation = Multiverse.
Not mentioning Daydreamers because I have absolutely no idea how to handle that portrayal of Franklin. Same with History of the Marvel Universe.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Abraxas is depicted as a purely multiversal entity in the storyline he appears in, so he is just flat High 1-A, yeah.
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He needed the Ultimate Nullifier to affect anything on a multiversal scale though, so I am not so sure. His greatest personal feats that I recall is him easily killing off lots of universal Galactus bodies one by one, so I do not think that we can give him a definitive rating.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Anyway: What is left to do here, exactly? Do I have full-on approval to apply the accepted changes? At most, the only thing left to further discuss are what to do with the Never-Queen and whether Hercules and Beta Ray Bill's universe-shaking feats are eligible for High 3-A, both of which are subjects of decent relevance but that otherwise hold no bearing in the overall proposals, so, yeah.
Click to expand...
You seem to have a go-ahead, yes, but we also need to find ALL of the character and item pages that are affected by these revisions, so help from other members with checking through all of the listed pages in our Marvel Comics category page would be very appreciated. 🙏

vsbattles.fandom.com

Marvel Comics

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, the Hulk also has a High 3-A feat of causing earthquakes at an infinite number of planets at the same time when in the Crossroads Nexus... but Ironclad helped him out...
 
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There are likely quite a few more minor characters that may also be affected by this, such as Legion and the most recent incarnation of X-Man, given their universal creation feats.
 
Antvasima said:
He needed the Ultimate Nullifier to affect anything on a multiversal scale though, so I am not so sure. His greatest personal feats that I recall is him easily killing off lots of universal Galactus bodies one by one, so I do not think that we can give him a definitive rating.
Click to expand...
Well, keep in mind that Abraxas' endgoal was really to return everything to the void, as he tells Roma, so what he really wanted was to erase Multi-Eternity entirely instead of just blowing up all the universes, so I don't think that detracts from a potential High 1-A rating. It's like how two characters can exist on the same level of existence but one may still be unable to completely obliterate the other with a punch or something.

Antvasima said:
You seem to have a go-ahead, yes, but we also need to find ALL of the character and item pages that are affected by these revisions, so help from other members with checking through all of the listed pages in our Marvel Comics category page would be very appreciated. 🙏

vsbattles.fandom.com

Marvel Comics

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, the Hulk also has a High 3-A feat of causing earthquakes at an infinite number of planets at the same time when in the Crossroads Nexus... but Ironclad helped him out...
Click to expand...
I did a chunk of the characters thoroughout yesterday and the earlier parts of today. I'll make a list of the ones I checked out later when I have the time (Or you can check my contribution history, either works)
 
I think we should delete house of ideas profile, it sucks ass. It dosen't even have the tier rating.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Well, keep in mind that Abraxas' endgoal was really to return everything to the void, as he tells Roma, so what he really wanted was to erase Multi-Eternity entirely instead of just blowing up all the universes, so I don't think that detracts from a potential High 1-A rating. It's like how two characters can exist on the same level of existence but one may still be unable to completely obliterate the other with a punch or something.
Click to expand...
Well, we don't know if he had to blow up all of the universes one-by-one, so I still think that he should receive uncertain tier ratings.
Ultima_Reality said:
I did a chunk of the characters thoroughout yesterday and the earlier parts of today. I'll make a list of the ones I checked out later when I have the time (Or you can check my contribution history, either works)
Click to expand...
Okay. Thank you for helping out. 🙏

Also, as I mentioned in your other thread, please keep an eye on "Dominion" (presumably Mother Righteous and "G.O.D.S.").
 
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The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Not mentioning Daydreamers because I have absolutely no idea how to handle that portrayal of Franklin. Same with History of the Marvel Universe.
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Iirc, His energy flowing through the man thing caused it to break apart because of it being too much for him to handle.
But the same Man-thing had Adam K'admon in him, but was fine. Considering man thing 1997, strange tales 1998 and day dreamers were all written by DeMattias, I think it implies Franklin > Adam K'admon, which should be H1A I think
 
Kage said:
Iirc, His energy flowing through the man thing caused it to break apart because of it being too much for him to handle.
But the same Man-thing had Adam K'admon in him, but was fine. Considering man thing 1997, strange tales 1998 and day dreamers were all written by DeMattias, I think it implies Franklin > Adam K'admon, which should be H1A
Click to expand...
That sounds really wacky, but I guess I'll have to read Daydreamers myself to check. Onto the pile he goes I suppose.
 
Kage said:
Iirc, His energy flowing through the man thing caused it to break apart because of it being too much for him to handle.
But the same Man-thing had Adam K'admon in him, but was fine. Considering man thing 1997, strange tales 1998 and day dreamers were all written by DeMattias, I think it implies Franklin > Adam K'admon, which should be H1A
Click to expand...
Well, it's a bit more complicated than that when you take into account Spider-Man Annual 1999.

In t6hat, Man-Thing had the power of the Nexus, Fallen Stars, Adam Ka'dmon, Ellen , and the Staff of the Divine Creator in him simultaneously and was seemingly perfectly fine.

So it's more like:
Daydreamers Franklin >>>> Adam Ka'dmon.
 
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