Marvel Comics: The Infinite Universe

[NHTkenshin2]

These marvel upgrades are taking a strain on my mental health.

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• Dr Doom states that the Universe is infinite | Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars Vol 1 #12
• Ego calls the universe “The Infinite" | Silver Surfer: Black Vol 1 #4
• The black galaxy is an infinite gulf of space and time away | Thor #417
• The Universe is endless | Fantastic Four Vol 1 #77
• Silver Surfer calls the universe “an infinite void of space” | Fantastic Four Vol 1 #55
• The Universe is infinite and still keeps expanding | Silver Surfer Vol 8 #7
• Uatu implies The Universe is infinite | Fantastic Four Vol 1 #49
• A beam cuts through the “Time and Infinity" of the universe | Fantastic Four Vol 1 #32
• Uatu states The Universe is endless | Fantastic Four Vol 1 #50
• The Universe is believed to be Boundless | Fantastic Four (1998) Annual 2001

Edge of the Universe​

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But, it should be noted that it is very likely that The Marvel Universe has an edge even with being infinite

1. “Meanwhile, countless light years away on the edge of infinity" | Two-In-One comic - Annual 2
2. “To the very edge of the timeless infinity ” | Thor (1966) #143
3. “In the twilight area of the edges of infinity" | Marvel Masterworks Doctor Strange #1

This establishes a clear “Edge" to the Infinite universe
Of course, this doesn't debunk it, it just means that whatever form of logic you think an Infinite structure should abide by probably doesn't apply to The marvel comics' universe
As that it very clearly accepts Infinities to have an edge.

I just thought it this would be necessary to bring this up before mfs do that DBS shit on here

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Marvel doesn't have that much statements about its size, but when it does, its usually treated as an Infinitely sized structure

This obviously upgrades The Marvel Universe from: whatever finite size we accept it as ---> infinitely sized
Also upgrading structures comparable in size to the 616 universe, to infinite size.

 

[KLOL506]

I'd suggest to keep digging for more finite and infinite statements for this. Let's see what the others think then.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Following

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Oh God, here we go. We're really doing this now.

 

[Recap_]

Some scans don't work.

 

[KLOL506]

A lot of the scans seem to be Blogspot-based stuff. I'd suggest putting all these scans on imgur first, naming them there and then naming the issue and source for your scans on here as well.

 

[Hasty12345]

If this gets accepted, 3-C heralds might need to be altered.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I actually did not spend like 2 hours making sure these scans worked for them mfs not to work i hml

 

[KLOL506]

Oh yeah, I think I get the problem now.

REPLACE STATIC WITH VIGNETTE ON YOUR LINKS.

But still, add the links to imgur. Much easier that way.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Oh yeah, I think I get the problem now.

REPLACE STATIC WITH VIGNETTE ON YOUR LINKS.

But still, add the links to imgur. Much easier that way.

Lmao actually worked

 

[Antvasima]

If this gets accepted, 3-C heralds might need to be altered.

The galaxy-destruction feats remain very useful blatantly explicit gauges of power, so we should preferably keep them. Plenty of the characters currently accepted as being given 3-C rating have been treated very generously enough as it is.

Given the sheer intensity of the tide of ongoing pushing and demands that I have had to deal with recently after Impress and Confluctor left also give me the impression that several of you will never get satisfied no matter how extreme upgrades that I accept, regardless how unreliable the tiering turns.

Figuratively speaking, there is almost a relentless dedication to eventually reach tier negative infinity for even Captain America and Spider-Man, as anything less is deemed unacceptable, truthfulness, accuracy, and common sense be damned.

Anyway, the Marvel universe has sometimes been treated as infinite and sometimes as finite, depending on the story, and most recently, in Dan Slott's Reckoning War event, it was definitely treated as finite, and was stated to be a tenth as large as it used to be until just recently, but if we are going to rate it as infinite, we definitely cannot rely on hyperbole or flowery speech, only considerably more matter of fact reliable statements by scientists or cosmic entities that are not ambiguous in any way.

 

[Hasty12345]

The galaxy-destruction feats remain very useful blatantly explicit gauges of power, so we should preferably keep them. Plenty of the characters currently accepted as being given 3-C rating have been treated very generously enough as it is.

Given the sheer intensity of the tide of ongoing pushing and demands that I have had to deal with recently after Impress and Confluctor left also give me the impression that several of you will never get satisfied no matter how extreme upgrades that I accept, regardless how unreliable the tiering turns.

Figuratively speaking, there is almost a relentless dedication to eventually reach tier negative infinity for even Captain America and Spider-Man, as anything less is deemed unacceptable, truthfulness, accuracy, and common sense be damned.

Anyway, the Marvel universe has sometimes been treated as infinite and sometimes as finite, depending on the story, and most recently, in Dan Slott's Reckoning War event, it was definitely treated as finite, and was stated to be a tenth as large as it used to be until just recently, but if we are going to rate it as infinite, we definitely cannot rely on hyperbole or flowery speech, only considerably more matter of fact reliable statements by scientists or cosmic entities that are not ambiguous in any way.

I was actually hinting at more of a downgrade. I am currently under the impression 3-C comes from shaking a trillion light year universe, but obviously if it’s infinite, we can’t scale half the heralds to high 3-A.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Lmao actually worked

In the future, what I recommend is quickly switching to Mobile, screenshooting and then using Gyazo. Much simpler imo.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

If this gets accepted, 3-C heralds might need to be altered.

Actually they still have many 4-A and 3-C feats

If anything, this adds more proof for their 2-C peak rating

 

[KLOL506]

I was actually hinting at more of a downgrade. I am currently under the impression 3-C comes from shaking a trillion light year universe,

No, that wielded 4-A as per Kulf's calcs (I'd know, I accepted Magnitude 4). They scale to baseline 3-C via actual galaxy-busting feats and galactic explosions statements.

 

[KLOL506]

Actually they still have many 4-A and 3-C feats

Correct, they have a shit-ton of 4-A calcs that I myself evaluated. Supernovae AKA exploding suns in the comics on average are baseline 4-A (2e+57 joules or roughly 20 terafoe) as the 3-C CRT had confirmed, and Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns, 20 exafoe or 2e63 J. They're very high-end 4-A at the very least if nothing else.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Btw

Do we have speed feats of crossing the Universe ? Making the Universe Infinite may affect those type of feats

Correct, they have a shit-ton of 4-A calcs that I myself evaluated. Supernovae AKA exploding suns in the comics on average are baseline 4-A (2e+57 joules or roughly 20 terafoe) as the 3-C CRT had confirmed, and Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns, 20 exafoe or 2e63 J. They're very high-end 4-A at the very least if nothing else.

They still have the "harming something that no sells Galactic explosions" thing, right ? So they still have at least one 3-C feat, although something like 4-A (since it's apparently the most consistent) and leaving anything higher to their peak power also doesn't sound bad

 

[KLOL506]

Btw

Do we have speed feats of crossing the Universe ? Making the Universe Infinite may affect those type of feats

Only one that comes to mind is Thor. Or was it Odin?

They still have the "harming something that no sells Galactic explosions" thing, right ? So they still have at least one 3-C feat,

Yeah, they do. A bunch of the other heralds also have feats comparable to or similar to that. Silver Surfer comes to mind as well, including his energy and his fight with Uni-Lord.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Btw

Do we have speed feats of crossing the Universe ? Making the Universe Infinite may affect those type of feats

I think Silver Surfer and Thor have some feats like that

 

[Antvasima]

I was actually hinting at more of a downgrade. I am currently under the impression 3-C comes from shaking a trillion light year universe, but obviously if it’s infinite, we can’t scale half the heralds to high 3-A.

Okay. I apologise for being triggered and irritable due to very prolonged and longterm exposure to completely unreasonable upgrade-addicts for Marvel and DC Comics far more prominently than other verses. The issue is that with several tens of thousands of individual stories and hundreds of writers over an 83-years long history, it is possible to find scans to "prove" almost anything at this point, which is why consistency and common sense need to constantly be prioritised, or our scaling for these verses will turn completely unreliable, and I take my responsibilities to provide as accurate information as possible to our visitors very seriously.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, yes, there are some legitimate 3-C feats for herald-level tiers. I have no problem with explicit power displays, as long as we are careful regarding which characters that should scale to them.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Here is a whole lotta scans that may suggest an infinite-sized universe (big credit to this). Whether they are flowery language or hyperbolic... I didn't bother to check LMAO

1. Tales to Astonish v1 27 (1961) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "Somewhere in the vast endless universe...")
2. Journey into Mystery Vol 1 97 (1963) - Stan Lee (Thor states: "the universe is huge-- endless...")
3. Fantastic Four v1 49 (1966) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "...in the endless cosmos")
4. Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...a maze of endless galaxies...the ravages of infinite space")
5. Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...the universe is endless")
6. Thor King-Size Special v1 2 (1966) - Stan Lee (Odin states: "...across the infinite void...")
7. Thor King-Size Special v1 2 (1966) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "...furthest reach of the limitless universe)
8. Silver Surfer v1 1 (1968) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "...the airless vacuums of unending cosmos...")
9. Silver Surfer v1 9 (1969) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "From the endless reaches of infinite space...")
10. Thor v1 185 (1971) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "...hurtles toward the edge of infinite...")
11. Marvel Treasury Edition v1 9 (1976) - Stan Lee (Thor states: "I sent a message through the infinite void")
12. Uncanny X-Men v1 134 (1980) - Chris Claremont, John Byrne (Narrator states: "...though all the infinite reaches of space and time")
13. Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars v1 12 (1985) - Jim Shooter (Dr. Doom states: "No way in the infinite universe...")
14. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states: "...and an infinity number of suns is being born...and an infinity is dying away")
15. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states: "Space is infinite!")
16. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states a 2nd time (technically the first) that: "Space is infinite!")
17. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Silver Surfer states: "I can track a grain of dust through the infinite void...")
18. Silver Surfer v3 5 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Silver Surfer states: "The fascination of infinity consumed me, the constant need to find uninhabitable worlds...")
19. Epic Illustrated v1 26 (1987) - John Byrne (Narrator states: "...speeding across infinite space...")
20. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "Amidst countless of worlds and endless stars...")
21. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "For the vast and endless are the galaxies")
22. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Mrrungo-Mu states: "Be the universe not endless?")
23. Thor v1 417 (1990) - Tom DeFalco, Ron Frenz (Narrator states: "Far across an infinite gulf of time and space...")
24. Marvel Masterworks: Silver Surfer v1 1 (1990) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "In all the endless reaches of space...")
25. Thor v1 423 (1990) - Tom Defalco, Ron Frenz (Narrator states: "Far across the infinite void of deep space...")
26. Silver Surfer / Thor Annual v1 (1998) - Tom DeFalco (Narrator states: "...the distant seas of endless space...")
27. Thor: Tales of Asgard by Lee & Kirby v1 1 (2001) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "reaching through the emptiness of space...reaching to the very end of infinity")
28. Fantastic Four Annual v1 2001 (2001) - Jeph Loeb (Captain Universe talks about... well the universe and also the multiverse)
29. Annihilation: Heralds Of Galactus v1 2 (2007) - Keith Giffen (Silver Surfer states: "I can track a grain of dust through the infinite void of space")
30. Silver Surfer v7 15 (2016) - Dan Slott (Silver Surfer told Dawn that: "...the real universe is infinite and ever-expanding...")
31. Thanos: The Infinity Conflict v1 1 (2018) - Jim Starlin (The Living Tribunal states: "...being within this infinite realm")
32. King Thor v1 4 (2019) - Jason Aaron (Narrator states: "...thunder that rumbles the length of infinity [length of the universe]...")
33. Silver Surfer: Black v1 4 (2019) - Donny Cates (Ego states: "Open your eyes and gaze into [the] infinity [universe]")
34. Silver Surfer: Black v1 5 (2019) - Donny Cates (Silver Surfer states: "...I am aware of their mighty breath giving chase to the winds of infinity")
35. Marvel Universe: Map By Map — An Atlas From Asgard To Wakanda (2021) - Janes Hill, Nick Jones (Doctor Strange states: "The Mystic Realm is as infinite as my universe")

Also, Maverick_Zero_X shared a bunch of imgur scans for an infinite-sized universe

 

[CowHeadGod]

Just gonna say if anyone could get their hands on the Marvel Universe: Map By Map — An Atlas From Asgard To Wakanda book, that'd be great since afaik it's the closest thing to a offical cosmology map from Marvel themselves (?), kinda like the that DC map by Morrison everyone uses

oh and that book has statements on the universe being infinite and "boundless" btw

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Here is a whole lotta scans that may suggest an infinite-sized universe (big credit to this). Whether they are flowery language or hyperbolic... I didn't bother to check LMAO

1. Tales to Astonish v1 27 (1961) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "Somewhere in the vast endless universe...")
2. Journey into Mystery Vol 1 97 (1963) - Stan Lee (Thor states: "the universe is huge-- endless...")
3. Fantastic Four v1 49 (1966) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "...in the endless cosmos")
4. Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...a maze of endless galaxies...the ravages of infinite space")
5. Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...the universe is endless")
6. Thor King-Size Special v1 2 (1966) - Stan Lee (Odin states: "...across the infinite void...")
7. Thor King-Size Special v1 2 (1966) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "...furthest reach of the limitless universe)
8. Silver Surfer v1 1 (1968) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "...the airless vacuums of unending cosmos...")
9. Silver Surfer v1 9 (1969) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "From the endless reaches of infinite space...")
10. Thor v1 185 (1971) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "...hurtles toward the edge of infinite...")
11. Marvel Treasury Edition v1 9 (1976) - Stan Lee (Thor states: "I sent a message through the infinite void")
12. Uncanny X-Men v1 134 (1980) - Chris Claremont, John Byrne (Narrator states: "...though all the infinite reaches of space and time")
13. Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars v1 12 (1985) - Jim Shooter (Dr. Doom states: "No way in the infinite universe...")
14. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states: "...and an infinity number of suns is being born...and an infinity is dying away")
15. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states: "Space is infinite!")
16. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Narrator states a 2nd time (technically the first) that: "Space is infinite!")
17. Silver Surfer v3 1 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Silver Surfer states: "I can track a grain of dust through the infinite void...")
18. Silver Surfer v3 5 (1987) - Steve Englehart (Silver Surfer states: "The fascination of infinity consumed me, the constant need to find uninhabitable worlds...")
19. Epic Illustrated v1 26 (1987) - John Byrne (Narrator states: "...speeding across infinite space...")
20. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "Amidst countless of worlds and endless stars...")
21. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "For the vast and endless are the galaxies")
22. Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Mrrungo-Mu states: "Be the universe not endless?")
23. Thor v1 417 (1990) - Tom DeFalco, Ron Frenz (Narrator states: "Far across an infinite gulf of time and space...")
24. Marvel Masterworks: Silver Surfer v1 1 (1990) - Stan Lee (Silver Surfer states: "In all the endless reaches of space...")
25. Thor v1 423 (1990) - Tom Defalco, Ron Frenz (Narrator states: "Far across the infinite void of deep space..."
26. Silver Surfer / Thor Annual v1 (1998) - Tom DeFalco (Narrator states: "...the distant seas of endless space...")
27. Thor: Tales of Asgard by Lee & Kirby v1 1 (2001) - Stan Lee (Narrator states: "reaching through the emptiness of space...reaching to the very end of infinity")
28. Fantastic Four Annual v1 2001 (2001) - Jeph Loeb (Captain Universe talks about... well the universe and also the multiverse)
29. Annihilation: Heralds Of Galactus v1 2 (2007) - Keith Giffen (Silver Surfer states: "I can track a grain of dust through the infinite void of space")
30. Silver Surfer v7 15 (2016) - Dan Slott (Silver Surfer told Dawn that: "...the real universe is infinite and ever-expanding...")
31. Thanos: The Infinity Conflict v1 1 (2018) - Jim Starlin (The Living Tribunal states: "...being within this infinite realm")
32. King Thor v1 4 (2019) - Jason Aaron (Narrator states: "...thunder that rumbles the length of infinity [length of the universe]...")
33. Silver Surfer: Black v1 4 (2019) - Donny Cates (Ego states: "Open your eyes and gaze into [the] infinity [universe]")
34. Silver Surfer: Black v1 5 (2019) - Donny Cates (Silver Surfer states: "...I am aware of their mighty breath giving chase to the winds of infinity")
35. Marvel Universe: Map By Map — An Atlas From Asgard To Wakanda (2021) - Janes Hill, Nick Jones (Doctor Strange states: "The Mystic Realm is as infinite as my universe")

Also, Maverick_Zero_X shared a bunch of imgur scans for an infinitely-sized universe

******* hell, alright
Yeah that works

 

[Tanin_iver]

This establishes a clear “Edge" to the Infinite universe
Of course, this doesn't debunk it, it just means that whatever form of logic you think an Infinite structure should abide by probably doesn't apply to The marvel comics' universe
As that it very clearly accepts Infinities to have an edge.

Marvel Universes have properties of finite things like edges while being infinite in nature.
Hence proved, Marvel Universes are Transdual in nature.

On a more serious note, its just probably that the writers didn't know/misunderstood how infinities work and ended up giving properties that should only be possible in finite instead of infinite structures. The original intent of the author still seems to be infinite sized structures.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

being infinite

Link doesn't work for me

 

[Hellbeast]

If this gets accepted, 3-C heralds might need to be altered.

Yep, we'd get High 3-A for certain characters. I also believe there's statements of "Endless galaxies" existing in the 616

 

[Vasco]

I agree with the OP especially that doom statement it's okay for me. That was doom with beyonder powers and many shit happened in secret wars so I agree.

 

[Vasco]

Anyway, the Marvel universe has sometimes been treated as infinite and sometimes as finite, depending on the story, and most recently, in Dan Slott's Reckoning War event, it was definitely treated as finite, and was stated to be a tenth as large as it used to be until just recently, but if we are going to rate it as infinite, we definitely cannot rely on hyperbole or flowery speech, only considerably more matter of fact reliable statements by scientists or cosmic entities that are not ambiguous in any way.

I heard recent comics treats it as finite but that's for recent though but 1991 and few years before and ahead should be infinite.

If anything, this adds more proof for their 2-C peak rating

I doubt universe being infinite has more proof for 2-C at peak cause infinite or not 2-C tier is 2-C as it deals with more than 1 space-time destruction or creation.

 

[Hellbeast]

There's also this but idk if they work good

 

[Vasco]

I prefer sure what the OP and Marvel brought should be enough, the OP should be 100% accepted.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Snip

There's also this but idk if they work good

I will add these when i am free

 

[Hellbeast]

Not sure of the sources tho, someone should verify

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I doubt universe being infinite has more proof for 2-C at peak cause infinite or not 2-C tier is 2-C as it deals with more than 1 space-time destruction or creation.

I'm...obviously aware of that, my point is that having more High 3-A feats adds more consistency to their universal and beyond collection much like having numerous 4-A calcs adds more consistency to their 3-C feats

 

[Stefano4444]

But, it should be noted that it is very likely that The Marvel Universe has an edge even with being infinite

An universe having an edge doesn't disprove that it isn't infinite, so as you say that doesn't necessarely debunk infinite size.

Anyway, i don't see problem with accepting Marvel's universes to be possibly infinite.

It wouldn't change the 3-C Tier since there are other feats that aren't based around characters shaking the universe with their blows.

And for Speed we can simply have the characters at having just possibly Infinite Speed.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I also believe there's statements of "Endless galaxies" existing in the 616

These ones?

Fantastic Four v1 50 (1966) - Stan Lee (The Watcher states: "...a maze of endless galaxies...the ravages of infinite space")

Silver Surfer: Parable TPB v1 1 (1988) - Stan Lee (Galactus states: "For the vast and endless are the galaxies")

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Have a similar case to AP maybe?
“Massively FTL+, Infinite at peak“

I guess this can be covered if infinite sized universes are accepted

Man these Thor vs Kratos match ups finna be amazing

 

[Hellbeast]

**** that, Kratos vs Hulk and Gorr are viable now

 

[The_Impress]

Comics-side really just getting goof'd up once I left huh

 

[KLOL506]

Find every one of these scans, source them, put 'em in a blog, and then put this in the profiles that deserve the ranking.

Obviously only the best Herald tiers deserve this, Hulk, Sentry, Thor, Silver Surfer, Hercules, Thanos and the like. No place for fodder cannon here.