• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Removing Multiple Dragon Ball Resistances

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm kinda neutral on this, leaning to disagree. Biggest reason why is because yeah, while some hax in this verse can be overpowered with higher AP, we have cases where that is and isn't the case for the Hakai.

Before you go "but Toppo", let's ask this first; what proof do you have that Toppo can hinder his Hakai to where it straight up doesn't erase people? Golden Frieza was provably weaker than Toppo because of the fact that he couldn't control the Hakai unlike with Sidra's Hakai, yet he didn't end up erased like he normally should have. Every instance we have of a Hakai erasing someone is when that person is weaker than the Hakai/GoD using it. i.e. Zamasu, the ghost dude (forgot his name) and that city in Universe 9. Yet Frieza is still alive after the fact, why? The only thing I can think of is him resisting it. The ToP having a no-killing rule doesn't mean anything unless you can prove that Toppo has the ability to hinder the Hakai's erasure ability to where it can erase stuff like rocks and such, but can't erase individuals.
 
I disagree. This is just a benfit of Dragon Ball. Saying other verses can negate these effects with their power because dragonball characters can is an assumption. For example, dragonball characters can make holes in space time with a certain amount of power or whatever, it not likes you would scale that to other verses. It's a simular concept.

On yemma though, all abilities resisted through power should be scalable in DB 😩.
 
ArmBill said:
The site doesn't accept it, I know that. However, deductively they would scale since people share a power system. So if someone resists something with their power & someone is millions of time stronger, they would be able to as well.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works, a resistance is something inherent to a character and cannot be given to another character just because they're stronger. Resistances are unrelated to AP.
 
ArmBill said:
The site doesn't accept it, I know that. However, deductively they would scale since people share a power system. So if someone resists something with their power & someone is millions of time stronger, they would be able to as well.
Click to expand...
Hax Resistance has its own standards separate from Power Systems and are a bit trickier to handle.
 
If your verse's power system allows you to resist certain hax's depending on the amount of power you have then someone who is from the same verse and has more power compared to the person who resisted a hax would also inherently resist said hax.

It's entirely dependent on how the universal power system of the verse actually interacts with hax's in the context of gaining resistances.
 
Vizer04 said:
That's not how it works, a resistance is something inherent to a character and cannot be given to another character just because they're stronger. Resistances are unrelated to AP.
Click to expand...
Resistance semantically means to withstand or not be affected by something. If someone's power is the cause to not being affected then it would mean its connected.
KLOL506 said:
Hax Resistance has its own standards separate from Power Systems and are a bit trickier to handle.
Click to expand...
The main thing that matters is if they're connected in a way & in this instance it would, but it's imperative that it is due to power. Not all abilities are resisted by power afterall.
 
Deceived3596 said:
If your verse's power system allows you to resist certain hax's depending on the amount of power you have then someone who is from the same verse and has more power compared to the person who resisted a hax would also inherently resist said hax.

It's entirely dependent on how the universal power system of the verse actually interacts with hax's in the context of gaining resistances.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't work against other verses' hax though, they wouldn't have the same weaknesses as DB's hax.
 
Vizer04 said:
That wouldn't work against other verses' hax though, they wouldn't have the same weaknesses as DB's hax.
Click to expand...
The resistances would work since they resist said hax's which the other verse is using. Just because resistances towards hax's can be gained through overwhelming power in one verse doesn't mean their resistances aren't equivalent to another verse where this doesn't happen, both are resistances, both get treated the same since they're the same functionally. One just gained easier compared to the other.
 
So, i guess we should analize case-by-case every instance a hax was used in Dragon Ball and see if it was resisted by AP or by other means.

Let's start with Hakai:

• Goku and Frieza are weaker than Sidra, so AP isn't involved in this. They get a resistance.

Time Skip (Manga):

• Whis explicitly said that Hit's technique could be resisted by higher AP. Goku doesn't get a resistance.
 
Deceived3596 said:
The resistances would work since they resist said hax's which the other verse is using. Just because resistances towards hax's can be gained through overwhelming power in one verse doesn't mean their resistances aren't equivalent to another verse where this doesn't happen, both are resistances, both get treated the same since they're the same functionally. One just gained easier compared to the other.
Click to expand...
That's stupid, Whis can use Hakai against Goku and erease him. Therefore, goku doesn't have Resistance to EE.

See? It works both ways.
 
💀

I've never read or watched Dragonball in my entire life, i don't have some-sort of a bias for the series, which is doubly shown by the fact i usually never get involved with Dragonball-based CRT's.
 
Deceived3596 said:
It isn't stupid, you just don't have a logical counter towards it, also that wouldn't inherently mean that Goku doesn't resist Existence Erasure, it could just mean Whis's Hakai is layered. That's it.
Click to expand...
And what makes Whis' EE better than EE from other verses? If anything, his EE is worse since it can only affect characters with lower AP.
 
Agree on Hakai

Hakai has a blatant weakness of getting overpowered by AP.

You can argue that nobody outside of DB can resist Hakai because they don't have Ki but that doesn't change anything. Goku can only resist getting erased because Hakai isn't truly haxed.

Hakai = a existence erasure technique beaten by AP.

Standard Existence Erasure Hax = an ability that ignores AP.

Goku and the other can beat Hakai if they have more AP but get erased by a standard Existence Erasure Hax because it doesn't care about AP.
 
The EE that ignored ap in certain verse isn't inherently better. The problem is in the DB example it still showed them resisting that effect. As long as the EE effect is similar or the same, there is no reason they wouldn't resist it. Saying a character can erase people who showed to resist it due to the cause is a massive assumption. It would need to have layer superiority, be more potent than soul/physical destruction, or higher D.
 
ArmBill said:
The EE that ignored ap in certain verse isn't inherently better. The problem is in the DB example it still showed them resisting that effect. As long as the EE effect is similar or the same, there is no reason they wouldn't resist it. Saying a character can erase people who showed to resist it due to the cause is a massive assumption. It would need to have layer superiority, be more potent than soul/physical destruction, or higher D.
Click to expand...
"The EE that ignored ap in certain verse isn't inherently better."
No it's much better.

"The problem is in the DB example it still showed them resisting that effect. As long as the EE effect is similar or the same, there is no reason they wouldn't resist it."

I don't see Goku or anyone else ever actually resisting as their body is getting erased. They have always overpowered the technique or gotten saved before it.

"It would need to have layer superiority, be more potent than soul/physical destruction, or higher D."

Hakai always has a power level. Frieza could resist the Hakai orb given by Sidra to the minion but would have gotten erased by Sidra himself. Toppo had to make his Hakai attacks more powerful for a reason. Vegeta was smashing Hakai orbs with a ki empowered fist and the massive Hakai energy ball was shrinking as he threw more energy at it with Final Flash.

90 AP Ki attack < 100 AP Hakai attack

90 Ap Ki attack > 80 AP Hakai attack
 
If you're overpowering the effect & negating it. Then they resisted it. All resistance means is to withstand or not be affected. Which is exactly what they did.

Also what you showed with the power stuff propagates layer superiority. When they power up it improves their potency & resistance towards that effect. As shown with your example.
 
ArmBill said:
If you're overpowering the effect & negating it. Then they resisted it. All resistance means is to withstand or not be affected. Which is exactly what they did.

Also what you showed with the power stuff propagates layer superiority. When they power up it improves their potency & resistance towards that effect. As shown with your example.
Click to expand...

They can only overpower it because of Hakai's AP weakness. A Existence Erasure hax is one that ignores AP and they would get killed by it.

It's not proving layers at all. The technique is only effective at erasing the target if they can overpower them. That's it. If Hakai was a technique that could ignore AP I can see an argument.
 
Sorry but no explicit mention of hakai having that weakness means no deal, the only instances you will find of hax in DB being negated by higher AP is countered by all the times it is not. So there is no reason to interpret the performance of the technique as a weakness rather than a resistance from the characters.

And more times than we are shown characters who are obviously lower in terms of ki resisting the erasure effect for prolonged time, Toppo was even surprised Golden Freeza survived his Hakai, Base Goku resisted a hakai meant for SSB level fighters for a prolonged time when we’ve seen it instantly erasing shit otherwise, Freeza taking hits from Toppo with his passive hakai aura up when that very same aura negated attacks coming from 17s attacks , if levels of ki mattered both Goku and Freeza would’ve gotten instantly erased the two times the hakai came from an opponent clearly superior to them in that regard, this narrative of hakai effectiveness being reliant on the level of ki of its target is bs.

The whole argument is built upon a false premise (hax doesn’t work agains high levels of ki) that isn’t clearly established within the series itself or in the continuity that we are discussing which is the anime/ not manga.
 
SummerBlue said:
They can only overpower it because of Hakai's AP weakness. A Existence Erasure hax is one that ignores AP and they would get killed by it.

It's not proving layers at all. The technique is only effective at erasing the target if they can overpower them. That's it. If Hakai was a technique that could ignore AP I can see an argument.
Click to expand...
But what Is the cause of it not working? Their power/ki. EE ignores ap if there is no resistance. However, their power semantically resist that effect. The burden of proof is on you to prove characters out of verse can resist that effect or can overcome characters that has shown resistance to that effect.

It actually does. Let's say base goku (pre TOP) is the baseline. Characters beyond that can erase him & wouldn't get erased by his hakai power if he had it. That goku doesn't lose the resistance to that potency. Which promotes layers.
 
AguilaR202 said:
Sorry but no explicit mention of hakai having that weakness means no deal, the only instances you will find of hax in DB being negated by higher AP is countered by all the times it is not. So there is no reason to interpret the performance of the technique as a weakness rather than a resistance from the characters.

And more times than we are shown characters who are obviously lower in terms of ki resisting the erasure effect for prolonged time, Toppo was even surprised Golden Freeza survived his Hakai, Base Goku resisted a hakai meant for SSB level fighters for a prolonged time when we’ve seen it instantly erasing shit otherwise, Freeza taking hits from Toppo with his passive hakai aura up when that very same aura negated attacks coming from 17s attacks , if levels of ki mattered both Goku and Freeza would’ve gotten instantly erased the two times the hakai came from an opponent clearly superior to them in that regard, this narrative of hakai effectiveness being reliant on the level of ki of its target is bs.

The whole argument is built upon a false premise (hax doesn’t work agains high levels of ki) that isn’t clearly established within the series itself or in the continuity that we are discussing which is the anime/ not manga.
Click to expand...

Toppo was surprised he was able to tank the attack but he was never trying to kill Frieza or anyone because of the rules. Base Goku was going to die if Beerus didn't save him.

Hakai has an obvious power level behind every attack. It gets blocked, destroyed, and overpowered by Ki attacks with rivaling AP. The standard EE hax ignore AP completely. I don't need a explicit statement when there is a lot of feats of Hakai having a weakness.
 
I disagree with the OP

The Shenron example is bad because it's clearly stated that Shenron's reality warping is limited. He cannot harm, weaken, or force characters stronger than the creator is the upper limit to what Shenron can do. That's more so weak reality warping rather than resistance to reality warping. Shenron's reality warping was never combat applicable in the first place.

Hakai on the other hand is quite potent Existence Erasure and is meant to be combat applicable. It negates durability and just erases save for those who are powerful enough to resist it. Of course there is normally a limit that Gods of Destruction aren't implied to be capable of erasing foes above them such as the angels or Zeno. But Goku didn't consider hakai a threat and actively needed to overpower the energy of destruction with his Ki and I'm pretty sure the "durability drops exponentially when distracted" would also put Goku more susceptible to it if that push came to shove. But that literally just means his Ki is what is actively protecting him from the EE effects and thus is a qualification for resisting it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I disagree with the OP

The Shenron example is bad because it's clearly stated that Shenron's reality warping is limited. He cannot harm, weaken, or force characters stronger than the creator is the upper limit to what Shenron can do. That's more so weak reality warping rather than resistance to reality warping. Shenron's reality warping was never combat applicable in the first place.

Hakai on the other hand is quite potent Existence Erasure and is meant to be combat applicable. It negates durability and just erases save for those who are powerful enough to resist it. Of course there is normally a limit that Gods of Destruction aren't implied to be capable of erasing foes above them such as the angels or Zeno. But Goku didn't consider hakai a threat and actively needed to overpower the energy of destruction with his Ki and I'm pretty sure the "durability drops exponentially when distracted" would also put Goku more susceptible to it if that push came to shove. But that literally just means his Ki is what is actively protecting him from the EE effects and thus is a qualification for resisting it.
Click to expand...

That shouldn't grant Goku resistance to anything but Hakai's existence erasure. Hakai is the only form of existence erasure that they have been shown resisting and as you said it gets overpowered by Ki. It has feats of getting blocked, destroyed, and overpowered by Ki attacks. That weakness does not exist in EE hax. Unless your going to argue that Ki grants hax resistance.
 
SummerBlue said:
Toppo was surprised he was able to tank the attack but he was never trying to kill Frieza or anyone because of the rules. Base Goku was going to die if Beerus didn't save him.

Hakai has an obvious power level behind every attack. It gets blocked, destroyed, and overpowered by Ki attacks with rivaling AP. The standard EE hax ignore AP completely. I don't need a explicit statement when there is a lot of feats of Hakai having a weakness.
Click to expand...
The ToP rules mean nothing if Toppo is surprised about Freeza not being erased, the very scene leading up to him using hakai in the first place show clear signs of him not holding back, nevermind that just because the rule exists doesn’t imply characters will always try to follow them, see Kefla unleashing attacks strong enough to vaporize UI Goku, Frost attempting to attack people outside the stage and Jiren doing the same only being stopped by Goku.

You need hard evidence because there is equal showigngs of hakai not giving a shit about powergaps reliant on the level of ki, Goku endured the hakai which gave Golden Freeza trouble which logically would result in instant erasure if resisting it was tied to the level of ki of its target.
 
i just want to say here: So Ki is not a special power???, what wrong with overcome hax via Ki???, Ki is a supernatural power, Ki is a universal energy system, like any other magic or energy system out there, from other verses???. Why should we default that overcome hax via Ki mean that it is weakness of hax, but other verse overcome hax via their own power system is not weakness??
 
Yeah, it's a power via Ki manipulation, not a weakness for hax. Also for some of those other resistances such as paralysis, it has been shown to work on foes much stronger than the user. Blue's paralysis worked on Goku despite being much stronger than Blue physically, same with Chiaotzu. So that resistance is quite blatant. The stronger the Ki of destruction, the stronger the EE, and also strong resistance to it the stronger the Ki is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Ednaxel2
Dragon Ball: Updates (Planet Vegeta Re-Calc, DBS Manga Downgrade)
3 4 5
Replies
164
Views
10K
Damage3245
Damage3245
SwordLegendz01
  • Locked
Goku's Resistance to Sleep Manipulation
Replies
21
Views
2K
Zeitgeist77
Zeitgeist77
Tom4t0GG789
DRAGON BALL SPEED UPGRADE :O
2
Replies
66
Views
5K
Tom4t0GG789
Tom4t0GG789
KingTempest
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Z: Planet Vegeta Destruction Potential Downgrade
2
Replies
50
Views
6K
KingTempest
KingTempest
Damage3245
  • Locked
Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade
6 7 8
Replies
282
Views
21K
Damage3245
Damage3245
Back
Top