Removing Multiple Dragon Ball Resistances

[Vizer04]

Goku and Frieza have Resistance to EE because they tanked Hakai attacks during the Tournament of Power Saga.

However, it's made clear in the series that Hakai attacks can be overpowered by regular Ki. By this same logic, we should give Resistance to Reality Warping to Nappa and Vegeta because they were stronger than Shenron and wouldn't be affected by his magic.

This same logic applies to all Resistances based on having bigger Ki (Time Skip, Paralysis, etc) and therefore, they should all be removed.

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Agree: 23 (@Vizer04, @Kin201, @Gilad_Hyperstar, @StrymULTRA, @Lynieryz, @SummerBlue, @Shiraito983, @JustSomeWeirdo, @Damage3245, @Purgy, @Gohanblanco217, @Kachon123, @AKUTO123, @Danny33wise, @Akumasa, @Marshadow29, @Entity, @Maverick_Zero_X, @ShadowWarrior1999, @RoTt35, @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, @Aachintya31 and @Bernkastelll)

Neutral: 1 (@thetechmaster36)

Disagree: 25 (@AguilaR202, @Stefano4444, @SirAlex09, @Maskofthedragon, @ArmBill, @Toby020, @Deceived3596, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Golden_Void, @Gogeta, @KLOL506, @TheGreatJedi13, @Guacamolefletcher, @Godernet, @Therefir, @AStrangeverse, @Quantu, @Vladimir, @Arnoldstone18, @Randomlamdom, @Derpmaster9000, @Vietthai96, @Spinoirr, @CloverDragon03 and @DemonGodMitchAubin)

 

[Kin201]

Yeah, I think it is clear that Hakai has that weakness and it should be noted somewhere to users of Hakai.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Obviously I agree. I have been saying this for years. Hakai being overpowered by regular ki isn't a resistance feat, but rather a weakness of the hax

 

[AguilaR202]

Then how did Goku manage to not get erased when hit by the same hakai that gave Golden Freeza trouble ?, you can’t even argue his ki was overpowering the hakai because he is only on par with Golden Freeza while he is blue level.

This isn’t even the only instance where hakai shows no care for linear ki power for its erasure, toppos passive hakai aura erased 17s attacks but Freeza after losing golden wasn’t erased despite 17 being >>> that Freeza.


hard disagree.

 

[Kin201]

Beerus had to save Base Goku from being erased. If Beerus wasn't there, Goku had to (probably) turn SSJB to survive.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Then how did Goku manage to not get erased when hit by the same hakai that gave Golden Freeza trouble ?, you can’t even argue his ki was overpowering the hakai because he is only on par with Golden Freeza while he is blue level.

Goku would've been erased had Beerus not come to blow the hakai away. This is the only reason Goku survived

This isn’t even the only instance where hakai shows no care for linear ki power for its erasure, toppos passive hakai aura erased 17s attacks but Freeza after losing golden wasn’t erased despite 17 being >>> that Freeza.

Frieza was in his golden form when Hit by Toppo's hakai, and besides, the ToP had a no-killing rule so Toppo couldn't kill Frieza without being erased himself so he wouldn't kill him. Frieza did reverted back to Base after that though

 

[AguilaR202]

Beerus had to save Base Goku from being erased. If Beerus wasn't there, Goku had to (probably) turn SSJB to survive.

Hakai shows that it erases things on contact with little to no time, just Goku lasting as long as he did demonstrates a resistance to it, a ki blast on the level of Golden Freeza would have gotten the job done easier comparatively

the only weakness demonstrated is that as long as you can output energy at a faster rate than hakai can can erase will result in it being overpowered, passive higher AP doesn’t do anything.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Or it could also be a special property of ki to be able to resist certain hax.

 

[AguilaR202]

Goku would've been erased had Beerus not come to blow the hakai away. This is the only reason Goku survived

Frieza was in his golden form when Hit by Toppo's hakai, and besides, the ToP had a no-killing rule so Toppo couldn't kill Frieza without being erased himself so he wouldn't kill him. Frieza did reverted back to Base after that though

Toppo was surprised Freeza survived it in the first place only having second thoughts of erasing him after the latter was Knocked out , and at no point does he stop showing his purple passive aura that passively erases stuff.

Beerus helping Goku at the last minute doesn’t change the fact he was still resisting the erasure for a good few minutes before he arrived and that hakai generally erases with no time under other circumstances

 

[Vizer04]

he is only on par with Golden Freeza while he is blue level.

Not really:

 

[Kin201]

Hakai shows that it erases things on contact with little to no time, just Goku lasting as long as he did demonstrates a resistance to it, a ki blast on the level of Golden Freeza would have gotten the job done easier comparatively

the only weakness demonstrated is that as long as you can output energy at a faster rate than hakai can can erase will result in it being overpowered, passive higher AP doesn’t do anything.

So you mean characters with higher ki can overpower Hakai? That means you are agreeing with this CRT. Or you only want that resistance removed from Vegeta while Goku and Frieza can keep it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, Vegeta did overpower Toppo's Hakai from just having a bigger ki while it was erasing rocks around him.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If people can just overpower hakai by powering up, then it's not a resistance feat. An actual resistance feat is like how for example Vegito was able to keep its consciousness even as a candy, while others didn't

Or that Majin Vegeta was able to completely ignore Babidi's orders while people like Dabura were like puppets to him

 

[Vizer04]

An actual resistance feat is like how for example Vegito was able to keep its consciousness even as a candy, while others didn't

although he shouldn't have Resistance to Transmutation since the Candy Beam did affect him

 

[Kin201]

Not really:

This is a fight between SSJB Goku and Golden Frieza though. It is true that Base Goku is a one-shot material to Golden Frieza as long as consistency goes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We might also remove Resistances to both Time Stop and Paralysis.

Both were blatantly overpowered from bigger ki, and manga just supports this notion.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

although he shouldn't have Resistance to Transmutation since the Candy Beam did affect him

Yeah, that's why I only said that Vegito kept his conscioussness while being a candy

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

We might also remove Resistances to both Time Stop and Paralysis.

Both were blatantly overpowered from bigger ki, and manga just supports this notion.

Given that the anime did the same thing with Paralysis when Broly overpowered God Bind then yeah, this should be removed too

 

[AguilaR202]

Not really:

Stop trying to come off as coy with one word responses, Goku was in blue when he clashed with Freeza only losing the form after getting hit.



Unless you want to argue that for some reason Goku powered to blue and then back to base just before getting hit which is disingenuous as it gets as an interpretation of that battle.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Given that the anime did the same thing with Paralysis when Broly overpowered God Bind then yeah, this should be removed too

Not to mention that Hit did obviously train as he could briefly hold Jiren with his time powers. However Jiren broke free from that from just powering up, confirming once again that you only need higher Ki to overpower him.

The anime does not state it like in the manga but it works basically the same.

 

[Kin201]

Yeah, Hakai can be resisted by characters powering up (as seen with Frieza) or using stronger energy attacks (as seen with Vegeta). This should at least be added as a weakness to its users. Then we can discuss whether we should remove resistance from those affected.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, Hakai can be resisted by characters powering up (as seen with Frieza) or using stronger energy attacks (as seen with Vegeta). This should at least be added as a weakness to its users. Then we can discuss whether we should remove resistance from those affected.

I mean we should also yeet Paralysis and Time Stop resistance with this same basis.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Honestly, any ability that gets resisted by rising ki level wouldn't give resistance. In GT that includes even Cell's absorption so GT Goku wouldn't have resistance to it if for some reason he has it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Honestly, any ability that gets resisted by rising ki level wouldn't give resistance. In GT that includes even Cell's absorption so GT Goku wouldn't have resistance to it if for some reason he has it

Like, seriously. Broly is literally overwriting Goku's ki with his own while breaking free from the paralysis, plus the obvious powering up stuff.

How the **** did this pass as a resistance is beyond me.

 

[Kin201]

I mean we should also yeet Paralysis and Time Stop resistance with this same basis.

Maybe but in this thread I want to talk about Hakai only.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe but in this thread I want to talk about Hakai only.

To be honest, if we're discarding Hakai with the basis of "it can be overpowered from just bigger Ki" then we should talk about other hax too, given the downgrade works on the same basis.

Would be double standards otherwise.

 

[Lynieryz]

I agree

 

[Vizer04]

Yes, i agree that we should remove all resistances based on overpowering an opponent's hax (Time Skip, Paralysis, etc). I never liked that double standard.

 

[Kin201]

The title of this thread is only about Hakai though...

 

[Vizer04]

The title of this thread is only about Hakai though...

We can change that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The title of this thread is only about Hakai though...

We can change that (2).

 

[Stefano4444]

I fully disagree on this, feats of characters resisting haxes thought raw power should be valid as feats of characters resisting haxes thought special physiology or ability, there is no good reason to reject it, especially when this was never treated as a weakness but more like just a limitation.

And this is not just Dragon Ball there are many other verses which resistences come from characters overpowering someone's hax (and no because of special physiology) that have been accepted (Kratos overpowering Hades's soul rip, Kaido and Big Mom's resisting Law's Room, Thor's resisting the Unbinding Stone, Dante's resisting Alice's life force absorption and etc.).

 

[StrymULTRA]

I fully disagree on this, feats of characters resisting haxes thought raw power should be valid as feats of characters resisting haxes thought special physiology or ability, there is good reason to reject it, especially when this was never treated as a weakness but more like just a limitation.

Limitation is weakness though...

And this is not just Dragon Ball there are many other verses which resistences come from characters overpowering someone's hax (and no because of special physiology) that have been accepted (Kratos overpowering Hades's soul rip, Kaido and Big Mom's resisting Law's Room, Thor's resisting the Unbinding Stone, Dante's resisting Fault's body's energy absorption and etc.).

Too bad those verses are not like Dragon Ball.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

And this is not just Dragon Ball there are many other verses which resistences come from characters overpowering someone's hax (and no because of special physiology) that have been accepted (Kratos overpowering Hades's soul rip, Kaido and Big Mom's resisting Law's Room, Thor's resisting the Unbinding Stone, Dante's resisting Alice's life force absorption and etc.).

Other verses are irrelevant here. This is a Dragon Ball CRT so other verses don't matter

 

[Stefano4444]

Limitation is weakness though...

No, it's not, unless you think that a character's having limit for its strength/speed/durability count as a weakness.

Hax its also assumed to have limits, and if there a character that can resist it via sheer strength then it just show its limit, and not that it has a weakness.

Other verses are irrelevant here. This is a Dragon Ball CRT so other verses don't matter

They are relevant when people think its fine for those verses to get resistances in that way but its a problem when Dragon Ball does.

 

[Damage3245]

It can be hard sometimes to decide if a character not being affected by a power should count as a Resistance for the character or a Weakness for the power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, it's not, unless you think that a character's having limit for its strength/speed/durability count as a weakness.

...what.

Hax its also assumed to have limits, and if there a character that can resist it via sheer strength then it just show its limit, and not that it has a weakness.

When a series makes clear (such as Hit's case) that more ki can overpower hax, not really. Is the hax's weakness if anything.

They are relevant when people think its fine for those verses to get resistances in that way but its a problem when Dragon Ball does.

They do not have the same ki mechanics though.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Man, it sure is weird how all these abilities have the same "weakness" in Dragon Ball and only Dragon Ball

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Man, it sure is weird how all these abilities have the same "weakness" in Dragon Ball and only Dragon Ball

Because that's how Dragon Ball is written. Simple as that

 

[Vizer04]

Because that's how Dragon Ball is written. Simple as that

True, as someone who likes Dragon Ball, even i have to admit that the writting is a bit lazy sometimes.