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You cannot really argue when Whis literally says that is simply needed more ki to ovepower hax lol.
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Removing Multiple Dragon Ball Resistances
- Thread starter Vizer04
- Start date
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Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,206
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Unless its explicitly treated as an actual weakness instead of simply be the limit of the ability, i don't see reason to not pick the former option.
Or maybe Ki users (in Dragon Ball) are capable to resist that specific hax if given enough enough power.
So what because those verse don't directly say those abilities can be ovepower it means they can keep their resistances?
Those characters still got their resistances by overpowering those haxes instead to resist them in the traditional way.
If you thing that Dragon Ball should not get resistances via overpowering abilties, then they need to go as well.
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Uhm. No. Whis has literally said that Hit's powers work only on people weaker than him. That's a blatant weakness of his.
SirAlex09
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Goku's ki however didn't overpower Sidra's Energy of desctruction. If anything he is much weaker in base than Sidra and was still surviving it.
GF didn't overpower it either. He was just metaphorically arm wrestling to gain control over the energy with his improved ki control.
GF wasn't stronger than Top when he was hit by Top's hakai yet he was still not erased. ( Yes Top held back but it was still above Frieza's capabilities to mess him up. So this suggests that he does have some sort of resistance)
And Vegeta vs toppo was basically just about emitting more energy than Toppo could erase. There was no overpowering the hax itself. In fact it was working. When Vegeta punched away Toppo's hakai he was using some sort of protective ki aura to RESIST it
Disagree therefor
GF didn't overpower it either. He was just metaphorically arm wrestling to gain control over the energy with his improved ki control.
GF wasn't stronger than Top when he was hit by Top's hakai yet he was still not erased. ( Yes Top held back but it was still above Frieza's capabilities to mess him up. So this suggests that he does have some sort of resistance)
And Vegeta vs toppo was basically just about emitting more energy than Toppo could erase. There was no overpowering the hax itself. In fact it was working. When Vegeta punched away Toppo's hakai he was using some sort of protective ki aura to RESIST it
Disagree therefor
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yeah this is just stupid. it's like saying "oh this character survived an ability through insert magical system here. yeah he doesnt resist it. it was a weakness of the ability itself that it got overpowered" i'm not even going to explain how wrong that is
Gilad_Hyperstar
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He would've been erased had Beerus not come
He literally did though. He was able to overcome its destructive effects by merely overpowering it
Not really when the ToP has a very clear no killing rule
Which is a limitation of hakai. So you basically agree with this thread that this is just a limitation of the hax
Vegeta was literally powering through his hakai and punching it back with ki alone
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So they resist Reality Warping too?
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that depends on whether them not being affected by shenrons bullshit is the result of their power nullifying it or that shenron himself is playing by rules that disallow him from affecting ppl stronger than him. and idk the specifics in that
but in the case of hakai tho. it's clear that they're using their own power to nullify it
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This is the dumbest shit I have ever heard.
This is just a weakness for hax in Dragon Ball specifically, being overpowered with strength.
Hard disagree with this. We've gone this song and dance multiple times in a row.
@DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama Mind responding to this?
This is just a weakness for hax in Dragon Ball specifically, being overpowered with strength.
Hard disagree with this. We've gone this song and dance multiple times in a row.
@DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama Mind responding to this?
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Even the argument for all hax in DB not working agains higher AP is complete bs because of Guldos time stop and mafuba both working on characters who had explicitly higher AP than their respective users, the hax with proven and stated limits are literally just Hits manga version of timeskip, you’re not working off precedented showings here, you’re exteapolating your entire argument off one instance where a single hax was stated to have such limit which isn’t even in the same continuity as the anime.
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"Most hax from other verses don't have that weakness" is not a good excuse to make. Not every verse is the same. This argument has been repeatedly used so many times against Dragon Ball that it's almost funny and sad to even remember as a thing.
SirAlex09
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So why wasn't he immediately erased like Zamasu?
The entire episode put emphasize on GF's ki control so nope.
Cool didn't know you can turn off Hakai's EE effect. Irony off* He was just holding back on the potency. The potency of hax in dragonball scale with ki level and so does the resistance. It doesn't make sense for numerous abilities that are unrelated to ki to have the exact same weakness for some reason.
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Like Sevil said, it depends on whether that shit is dependant on Nappa's power nullifying it or Shenron is stuck to following rules forbidding him from operating against stronger beings like him. Without enough context, we can't say jackshit about Nappa. CONTEXT IS KING WHEN YOU TRY DETERMINING FEATS LIKE THIS.
However, evidence mounts up considerably with regards to Hakai, this is blatantly being resisted by Goku's own strength which prevents him from being insta-erased. Not every hax in Dragon Ball operates the same way either. There is a reason it's called a case-by-case basis.
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Another thing about this is that there is no such thing as Immunity for hax like Existence Erasure. There is only Resistance.
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Bruh, you can't be serious.
Hakai is explicitly one of those scenarios where Resistance is earned.
Read what I said immediately after that point.
SirAlex09
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The entire point of CRT was that Hakai was overpowered by normal Ki.
2 of the 3 mentioned cases had nothing to do with overpowering. As stated in the episode with Frieza it was done via ki control after resisting the EE.
The third case with Top and Vegeta can be seen either way. Imo not enough evidence to remove it.
2 of the 3 mentioned cases had nothing to do with overpowering. As stated in the episode with Frieza it was done via ki control after resisting the EE.
The third case with Top and Vegeta can be seen either way. Imo not enough evidence to remove it.
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Name these other hax that have been resisted and overpowered through sheer AP.
This is not a set rule for Resistances. AT ALL. Exceptions exist depending on how other verses portray it. But they're just that: Exceptions. Not a rule.
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Honestly, the instant anyone starts using the manga as a method to downplay the anime, when they're both different canons and don't work under the same principles(Whis' statement about Hit's hax being a prime example, as that's non-existent in the anime) they're pretty much arguing in bad faith. This is just straight downplay status through-and-through.
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The strength of base Goku, which is inferior to Sidra in every way, is somehow a point in your favor, with what you're arguing? Excuse me?
SirAlex09
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I don't think you are 100% wrong. I simply believe Verses like DB and Bleach are these two exceptions where you do get better resistance and stronger hax with more AP. It's a grey area. The concept of resistances scaling with AP does exist in other verses and video games as well. Therefor that definition you use is technically flawed.
Example: In League of legends there are numerous characters whose resistances and hax scale with their AP ( = AP or AD). Like there is a rat called twitch who can poison and slow down people and it scales with his magic power or a character named Jax whose resistance to Magic or physical damage scales with his physical damage.
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I came to this thread at first to just cry about it but it seems like the tide as turned a little
So I spit out my black pill and vote disagree
If it passes anyway, oh well
So I spit out my black pill and vote disagree
If it passes anyway, oh well
Gilad_Hyperstar
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You literally agreed with the premise of the CRT, then say the opposite. What?
The bold is literally what the CRT is trying to say, that because it's a weakness of the hax, this isn't a resistance feat
Also:
Hit's time skip, paralysis from God Bind
Overpoweing a hax through sheer AP isn't a resistance, it's a limitation of the hax that doesn't work on stronger beings
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They serve as both. There's a reason why we don't hand out this resistance to literally everyone who has higher Ki
Didn't Goku literally precog that shit?
Was that solely paralysis or just telekinesis?
Depends on a case by case basis.
SirAlex09
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Ah yes. Broly's AP is so much higher than Goku's.. Evident when a full power full swing cross barely hurt Goku and Goku cancelled his God binding.
According to you higher Ap means hax becomes useless therefor it isn't a resistance right? So how comes that the same hax from both didn't work on neither. If one was stronger than the other, one would assume that the hax should work according to your point right?
Vizer04
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- Thread starter
- #71
So, who gets to decide what is a resistance and what is not? This seems like a double standard to favor Dragon Ball over all the other verses.
Only in the anime, in the manga Whis explains verbatim that he overpowered Hit's Time Skip.
Just Paralysis, i don't think there's any mention of it being Telekinesis.
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It's not a matter of who, but what.
Basically, you need on-screen feats of showing resistance against the power. That's why Goku has it but Vegeta doesn't (Or at least he didn't until Toppo came along). Having high-enough power level wouldn't mean jackshit.
WHY ARE WE USING MANGA LOGIC TO APPLY TO THE ANIME HERE. LEAVE MANGA SHIT FOR MANGA-RELATED CRTS, DON'T USE IT IN ANIME.
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I meant when there was no Toppo episode. People were arguing to not give Vegeta resistance simply because he had a higher power level. We had to wait for Toppo to finally confirm it.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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No, they can't be both. They either show a resistance feat to the hax (like how Majin Vegeta broke Babidi's control over him while Dabura was a puppet to him), or they don't have that innate resistance like how it is in literally every other verse
Overpowering hax through AP goes against the literal definition of hax, so that's not a resistance feat
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,280
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- Thread starter
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Then we need to add a note at the verse page to make that clear. If we don't, more people will argue that Gohan, Jiren or X character can resist Hakai when that's just not true.
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,280
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- Thread starter
- #78
Existance Erasure in any other verse: can erase anything and anyone regardless of their AP
Existance Erasure in Dragon Ball: can be resisted with higher AP
It's not fair (and not accurate) to give some Dragon Ball characters a resistance that shouldn't work against other verses' EE.
Existance Erasure in Dragon Ball: can be resisted with higher AP
It's not fair (and not accurate) to give some Dragon Ball characters a resistance that shouldn't work against other verses' EE.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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And that's exactly why I say these aren't resistance feats, as they'd still get erased by EE that doesn't care about stuff like AP
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To recap times where higher AP didn’t stop hax from working and taking significant effect:
Guldo vs Krillin and Gohan ( timefreeze)
Roshi vs Piccolo/ Frost / Vegeta ( sealing)
Ginyu vs Everyone ( body swap)
Buu vs Ultimate Gohan ( absorbtion)
Supreme Kai vs SS2 Gohan ( paralysis)
Buu vs Vegito ( transmutation/ only unconventional resistance as Vegito still got turned to candy)
Buu vs Vegito ( absorbtion only nulled by vegito actively putting up a barrier for that still getting shrunk in the process)
Copy Vegeta vs Vegeta ( power drain ) vegeta was affected
Tired Freezas vs GoD Toppo rematch(paralysis)
Lavender vs Goku and Vegeta ( poisons,
saiyans needed active ki barrier to avoid it)
all other instances where supposedly hax is overcome through sheer AP ( headcanon assumption because it’s never stated to be the reason why it fails) :
Shenrons wishes
Hits vs Goku /Jiren ( time leap/ cage)
Majin Vegeta vs Babidi ( mind manip)
God Bind ( paralysis)
Times where its explicitly stated hax doesn’t work on stronger opponents:
Hit vs Goku ( Time skip, manga only )
This is literally the same old “Hax don’t work on DB because muh high AP numbers” in reverse.
Guldo vs Krillin and Gohan ( timefreeze)
Roshi vs Piccolo/ Frost / Vegeta ( sealing)
Ginyu vs Everyone ( body swap)
Buu vs Ultimate Gohan ( absorbtion)
Supreme Kai vs SS2 Gohan ( paralysis)
Buu vs Vegito ( transmutation/ only unconventional resistance as Vegito still got turned to candy)
Buu vs Vegito ( absorbtion only nulled by vegito actively putting up a barrier for that still getting shrunk in the process)
Copy Vegeta vs Vegeta ( power drain ) vegeta was affected
Tired Freezas vs GoD Toppo rematch(paralysis)
Lavender vs Goku and Vegeta ( poisons,
saiyans needed active ki barrier to avoid it)
all other instances where supposedly hax is overcome through sheer AP ( headcanon assumption because it’s never stated to be the reason why it fails) :
Shenrons wishes
Hits vs Goku /Jiren ( time leap/ cage)
Majin Vegeta vs Babidi ( mind manip)
God Bind ( paralysis)
Times where its explicitly stated hax doesn’t work on stronger opponents:
Hit vs Goku ( Time skip, manga only )
This is literally the same old “Hax don’t work on DB because muh high AP numbers” in reverse.
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