Removing Multiple Dragon Ball Resistances

[Vizer04]

I would be fine with limited resistence though, since it should be made clear he only resist hakai, but will be erased by someone like GP or Zeno

Yes, limited resistance is fine to me too.

 

[Vizer04]

Also, we should add this in the GoDs' weaknesses:

Hakai can only affect beings of lower AP than the user.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sidra is much weaker than Beerus and Goku is much stronger than Zamasu.

Sidra also gave a small fraction of his hakai energy for the bandit to use, so it's not like its Sidra's FP either

 

[SirAlex09]

1) Proof that Sidra is weaker than Beerus without manga bs ? If anything Whis speaks of GoD as if they are a tier where they are all relative to each other.

Sidra also gave a small fraction of his hakai energy for the bandit to use,

Yet an even smaller fraction of Top was able to erase final form Frieza's strongest attack. Someone who is relative to SSJG Goku if you compare their showings against Dyspo.

And Goku was caught off guard. Off Guard Goku can be hurt by bullets and laser beams. He was in such pain when hit that he was unable to go blue or god form or even full power base form. So it was basically surpressed base Goku vs Hakai.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I fully disagree on this, feats of characters resisting haxes thought raw power should be valid as feats of characters resisting haxes thought special physiology or ability, there is good reason to reject it, especially when this was never treated as a weakness but more like just a limitation.

And this is not just Dragon Ball there are many other verses which resistences come from characters overpowering someone's hax (and no because of special physiology) that have been accepted (Kratos overpowering Hades's soul rip, Kaido and Big Mom's resisting Law's Room, Thor's resisting the Unbinding Stone, Dante's resisting Alice's life force absorption and etc.).

I agree with your argument! let's remove all resistance from certain characters for having greater energy, lol

This publication should not even be accepted, such a person's thinking ability is below 0

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yet an even smaller fraction of Top was able to erase final form Frieza's strongest attack. Someone who is relative to SSJG Goku if you compare their showings against Dyspo.

Proof that it was smaller? Sidra held back his power a lot, meanwhile Toppo used his full power as GoD. He was only not allowed to outright kill Frieza, which he confirms himself

And Goku was caught off guard. Off Guard Goku can be hurt by bullets and laser beams. He was in such pain when hit that he was unable to go blue or god form or even full power base form. So it was basically surpressed base Goku vs Hakai.

Base Goku still weaker than Golden Frieza who overpowered it. Besides, Goku was about to be erased had Beerus not come. It's amazing how you consistently ignore this point (and this was exactly why Frieza even tried to hakai him). Had Base Goku been able to resist it, he would've tanked the hakai and lived like how an actual resistance feat is made

 

[SirAlex09]

Proof that it was smaller? Sidra held back his power a lot, meanwhile Toppo used his full power as GoD. He was only not allowed to outright kill Frieza, which he confirms himself

Strawman argument. Not going to bother answering that

Base Goku still weaker than Golden Frieza who overpowered it. Besides, Goku was about to be erased had Beerus not come. It's amazing how you consistently ignore this point (and this was exactly why Frieza even tried to hakai him). Had Base Goku been able to resist it, he would've tanked the hakai and lived like how an actual resistance feat is made

Reistance =/= immunity.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Strawman argument. Not going to bother answering that

That's because you can't answer. Then by the same reason your argument should also be ignored

Reistance =/= immunity.

It doesn't matter. Resistance feats on the wiki are done when someone tries to use a hax on someone and it fails. We don't assume immunity, since another being that has a hax that can overcome said resistance can still affect them. Goku doesn't even resist hakai as he was literally going to be erased. If Goku would've survived it without Beerus coming then you'd have more argument, but it's still just a weakness of hakai

 

[Quasar002]

Sidra is much weaker than Beerus and Goku is much stronger than Zamasu.

Besides, Sidra's EE was definitely affecting Goku, who would've died if he wasn't saved by Beerus.

Yes, sidra is weaker than bills, but it is much stronger than goku. The topic is not to say that Hakai is mocked by ap?How the hell did goku get away with the biggest one, since logically he doesn't have a bigger ap than cider, in fact he doesn't have anything close to sidra, at least not in his base form. And base goku being above zamasu is something I don't remember, the only thing I remember was that goku in ssj2 surpassed zamasu. But there may be some proof that base goku surpassed zamasu, although it doesn't matter here...

 

[Quasar002]

The op's argument is: Ap larger>hakai. but where the hell does base goku have higher ap than sidra? Lol

 

[Quasar002]

Yeah, it's a specific weakness for hakai that AP allows the user to negate it. That is not a resistance feat, it's clearly portrayed as a weakness for hakai, especially when the same characters that "resist" hakai are terrified of being erased by the exact same technique done from stronger foes

And unless there's proof, AP increase doesn't increase hax potency, as by definition hax is unrelated to AP. Hakai is clearly an AP based "hax" and that's its weakness. Saying that Goku has infinite layers of resistence because he powered up is NLF (since you can just say that each time he powers up even by a little he gains a new "layer", which quickly spiral into out of control)

I would be fine with limited resistence though, since it should be made clear he only resist hakai, but will be erased by someone like GP or Zeno

I don't think it's nfl. I always thought it was general fandom consensus that Zeno's Erasure, or Daishinkan were layered above hakai, as gods aren't affected by hakai, zeno can erase os, and i believe that daishinkan the same thing.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't think it's nfl.

It is, because for every point of AP he'd gain another layer which quickly spirals to infinite, especially with them being Low 2-C

I always thought it was general fandom consensus that Zeno's Erasure, or Daishinkan were layered above hakai, as gods aren't affected by hakai, zeno can erase os, and i believe that daishinkan the same thing.

Goku and the rest can also be easily erased by Beerus' hakai while they can also tank the literal exact same ability with the only difference is that it comes from a weaker foe

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Disagree, don't remove them lmao

 

[Jinsama]

Everything has potency, including hax/concepts so im not sure whats so strange about Gokus resistance vs Hakai

You guys should read more fictional works, thats shit aint nothing new.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Cause it's not actually resistance. Goku would get erased by someone using the exact same hakai who is stronger than him but survives the same ability from a weaker foe. Yes hax potency exists, but there's no difference between the hakais since its the exact same technique

 

[SummerBlue]

Hakai: An Existence Erasure technique that can be overpowered by AP.

90 AP Hakai attack < 100 AP attack < 110 Hakai attack < 120 AP attack < Infinite AP Hakai

Goku with a power level of a 100 can't be erased by a Hakai attack with the power level of 90 because Hakai can be overpowered with AP. But a Hakai attack of 110 AP would kill him.

Existence Erasure Hax: From the Hax page
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."

EE Hax < Resistance to EE Hax < Resistance Negation < Resistance to Resistance Negation < Infinite Layers of resistance to EE Hax

Infinite AP Hakai < EE Hax

EE hax completely ignores AP. Goku with Infinite AP would just get erased by EE hax because it's not like Hakai and completely ignores AP. EE hax does not care about the AP chain because Hax completely ignores it. Hakai's potency is in the AP chain not in a Hax chain. It's weakness to AP is something Hax does not have.

 

[Vizer04]

Hakai: An Existence Erasure technique that can be overpowered by AP.

90 AP Hakai attack < 100 AP attack < 110 Hakai attack < 120 AP attack < Infinite AP Hakai

Goku with a power level of a 100 can't be erased by a Hakai attack with the power level of 90 because Hakai can be overpowered with AP. But a Hakai attack of 110 AP would kill him.

Existence Erasure Hax: From the Hax page
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."

EE Hax < Resistance to EE Hax < Resistance Negation < Resistance to Resistance Negation < Infinite Layers of resistance to EE Hax

Infinite AP Hakai < EE Hax

EE hax completely ignores AP. Goku with Infinite AP would just get erased by EE hax because it's not like Hakai and completely ignores AP. EE hax does not care about the AP chain because Hax completely ignores it. Hakai's potency is in the AP chain not in a Hax chain. It's weakness to AP is something Hax does not have.

Excellent explanation.

 

[Quasar002]

It is, because for every point of AP he'd gain another layer which quickly spirals to infinite, especially with them being Low 2-C

Goku and the rest can also be easily erased by Beerus' hakai while they can also tank the literal exact same ability with the only difference is that it comes from a weaker foe

if so it really would be nfl. but I speak of exploits. We have the following scale: EE zeno>EE bills>EE sidra. I won't talk about daishinkan, because I don't remember his erasure quote very well.

 

[Golden_Void]

Hakai feats from the ToP are excluded because they literally weren't allowed to unalive people. Toppo says he can't destroy Frieza and 17.

This leaves Goku and Frieza pre-tournament. Goku managed to stay alive in base, while Frieza was using max effort to compress the energy. The same Frieza that one-shot SSB Goku back into base with their clash. By the logic of the people that agree, Goku should've been insta-deleted by an attack at least 50x his base power (greater since he couldn't knock Frieza out of Golden in SSB). Being off-guard is a cop-out answer. He was caught off-guard in SSB and sniped by a laser. He was caught off-guard by the energy of destruction and instantly regained his composure.

This leaves 0 usable hakai feats where the person on the receiving end is stronger than the person using the attack.

Existence Erasure Hax: From the Hax page
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."

Followed by the next paragraph:

The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability. This is because, depending of the hax, the statistics bypassed may actually counter it if they have a higher enough scale.

 

[Godernet]

There’s three instances where Hakai was used to attempt to erase someone far weaker than the GoD. Zamasu, Frieza, and Base Goku.

Zamasu was instantly unalived, Golden Frieza and Base Goku were able to hold out.

Even if you argue relative AP this Goku should be hundreds of times weaker than Sindra and should have been erased instantly if Hakais only condition was an AP Gap.

Hard Disagree for now.

iirc too Beerus called Toppos Hakai mid and never really implied he was just talking about AP since far weaker characters were able to impress him with their AP and Abilities. so True GoD Hakai could just be layered higher.

 

[SummerBlue]

Hakai feats from the ToP are excluded because they literally weren't allowed to unalive people. Toppo says he can't destroy Frieza and 17.

This leaves Goku and Frieza pre-tournament. Goku managed to stay alive in base, while Frieza was using max effort to compress the energy. The same Frieza that one-shot SSB Goku back into base with their clash. By the logic of the people that agree, Goku should've been insta-deleted by an attack at least 50x his base power (greater since he couldn't knock Frieza out of Golden in SSB). Being off-guard is a cop-out answer. He was caught off-guard in SSB and sniped by a laser. He was caught off-guard by the energy of destruction and instantly regained his composure.

This leaves 0 usable hakai feats where the person on the receiving end is stronger than the person using the attack.

Followed by the next paragraph:

There is a lot of feats in the TOP of Hakai attacks clashing with Ki attacks and winning or losing depending on who has more AP. We don't know how powerful the Hakai ball was and base Goku was going to die if Beerus did not save him.

"The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability. This is because, depending of the hax, the statistics bypassed may actually counter it if they have a higher enough scale."

Nothing change the fact that Hakai gets beaten by AP and EE Hax does not. Also isn't that text there for Higher Dimensional characters and Hax.

 

[SummerBlue]

There’s three instances where Hakai was used to attempt to erase someone far weaker than the GoD. Zamasu, Frieza, and Base Goku.

Zamasu was instantly unalived, Golden Frieza and Base Goku were able to hold out.

Even if you argue relative AP this Goku should be hundreds of times weaker than Sindra and should have been erased instantly if Hakais only condition was an AP Gap.

Hard Disagree for now.

iirc too Beerus called Toppos Hakai mid and never really implied he was just talking about AP since far weaker characters were able to impress him with their AP and Abilities. so True GoD Hakai could just be layered higher.

Zamasu
Gets erased by Beerus who is much more powerful. Future Zamasu couldn't by killed because of the time ring and the Super Shenron wish.

Frieza
Manages to control and survive the Hakai ball. The Hakai ball however doesn't come close to Sidra's true power.

Toppo was never planning on killing him because of the rules. It would be extremely stupid of Toppo to give up on Justice for Destruction to save his universe to just get himself disqualified immediately.

Goku
Got overpowered and was going to die to the Hakai ball if Beerus didn't save him.


Beerus called out Toppo because he was a novice that in his words "needs time to charge before he can unleash his Energy of Destruction".

 

[Vizer04]

Then i guess Toppo can erase Jiren, Broly and Cell Max, right? Because that's what you're implying.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Agree with this

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Then i guess Toppo can erase Jiren, Broly and Cell Max, right? Because that's what you're implying.

No? They are much more powerful than him

 

[Vizer04]

No? They are much more powerful than him

But i thought Hakai was unrelated from AP??? The hypocrisy...

This is an obvious doble standard made to favor Dragon Ball.

 

[Vizer04]

Agree with this

Oh, you agree with this. Alright, forget my previous comment

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Even if you argue relative AP this Goku should be hundreds of times weaker than Sindra and should have been erased instantly if Hakais only condition was an AP Gap.

Sidra gave a mere fraction of his hakai energy to the assasin. He didn't at all used anywhere near his full power

And, Goku was gonna be erased by the hakai if Beerus wouldn't have saved him, so that is not a good example for resistance. So much for that when Goku would get erased anyways

 

[Vizer04]

Frieza: "Allow me to show you the true power of the Golden Frieza!"

This quote confirms that Frieza was saved by his own power, his own AP, and not some unrelated resistance.

 

[Golden_Void]

Nothing change the fact that Hakai gets beaten by AP and EE Hax does not. Also isn't that text there for Higher Dimensional characters and Hax.

What are you basing your definition of how EE works on? There are countless different types of EE across all types of fiction.

From the EE page:
This ability's destructive power is not absolute, and one should not assume that it can erase the soul by default. It can only be judged by what it has accomplished, and one's resistances to the ability can only be judged by the specific method by which this effect is achieved.

So one's resistance to a ki-based EE attack can only be judged by an EE attack that uses ki as a mechanism of action. It would be a false argument to say a ki-based user who resists a ki-based EE attack doesn't have EE resistance based on an EE attack that's on a conceptual or magical level.

Option 2 is, based on the AP > abilities argument, everybody automatically qualifies for power nullification on the basis of all energy-based abilities being negated by simply being stronger, which would change the current resistances to supporting feats for the ability, not removing them entirely. Then the slippery slope begins.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know we have policies on verse equalization, but it's also other characters outside of Dragon Ball even if they resisted other character's EE wouldn't quite mean Beerus' Haki wouldn't work. You need a Ki/Aura with enough power to resist the Haki in order to resist a GoD's Haki is another interpretation.

Also, it was agreed to give a middle ground practice. Saying all hax in Dragon Ball is just garbage tier hax that only works on weaker characters is downplaying Dragon Ball, likewise making their hax something that only really powerful Dragon Ball characters can resist would be an example of overplaying Dragon Ball. So we go with middle ground practices, hax in Dragon Ball (In it's original form) shouldn't be treated too far different hax of any other verse. And while we don't equalize all UES as exactly the same thing with all abilities, Dragon Ball's at bare minimum has basics and with hax's included in its UES should net them how hax resistance also is one of the additional abilities that comes with its UES. Haki is EE and thus negates durability, and Ki is a UES that grants resistance to similar UES based hax, so characters with stronger Ki than Beerus can train themselves to resist his Haki and it is still resistance. It basically has two requirements to resist Beerus Haki, you need both resistance to EE and durability comparable to Beerus' AP.

 

[SummerBlue]

I know we have policies on verse equalization, but it's also other characters outside of Dragon Ball even if they resisted other character's EE wouldn't quite mean Beerus' Haki wouldn't work. You need a Ki/Aura with enough power to resist the Haki in order to resist a GoD's Haki is another interpretation.

Also, it was agreed to give a middle ground practice. Saying all hax in Dragon Ball is just garbage tier hax that only works on weaker characters is downplaying Dragon Ball, likewise making their hax something that only really powerful Dragon Ball characters can resist would be an example of overplaying Dragon Ball. So we go with middle ground practices, hax in Dragon Ball (In it's original form) shouldn't be treated too far different hax of any other verse. And while we don't equalize all UES as exactly the same thing with all abilities, Dragon Ball's at bare minimum has basics and with hax's included in its UES should net them how hax resistance also is one of the additional abilities that comes with its UES. Haki is EE and thus negates durability, and Ki is a UES that grants resistance to similar UES based hax, so characters with stronger Ki than Beerus can train themselves to resist his Haki and it is still resistance. It basically has two requirements to resist Beerus Haki, you need both resistance to EE and durability comparable to Beerus' AP.

We shouldn't be giving abilities to Dragon Ball or to any series that they don't have. The point of the site is to be accurate.

Why should DB resist EE Hax when it doesn't have the same weakness to AP like Hakai?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

We shouldn't be giving abilities to Dragon Ball or to any series that they don't have. The point of the site is to be accurate.

Why should DB resist EE Hax when it doesn't have the same weakness to AP like Hakai?

because the franchise treats it as resistance still, therefore, it is still accurate to list it as such; otherwise, it will not be loyal to the series to misrepresent their abilities and resistance. the argument for it because it is treated differently on other franchise and verse is whataboutism

 

[SummerBlue]

because the franchise treats it as resistance still, therefore, it is still accurate to list it as such; otherwise, it will not be loyal to the series to misrepresent their abilities and resistance. the argument for it because it is treated differently on other franchise and verse is whataboutism

Then list the resistance as only being able to resist Hakai because them being able to resist abilities that ignore AP is not accurate.

 

[SummerBlue]

What are you basing your definition of how EE works on? There are countless different types of EE across all types of fiction.


So one's resistance to a ki-based EE attack can only be judged by an EE attack that uses ki as a mechanism of action. It would be a false argument to say a ki-based user who resists a ki-based EE attack doesn't have EE resistance based on an EE attack that's on a conceptual or magical level.

Option 2 is, based on the AP > abilities argument, everybody automatically qualifies for power nullification on the basis of all energy-based abilities being negated by simply being stronger, which would change the current resistances to supporting feats for the ability, not removing them entirely. Then the slippery slope begins.

Hakai: An Existence Erasure technique that can be overpowered by AP.

90 AP Hakai attack < 100 AP attack < 110 Hakai attack < 120 AP attack < Infinite AP Hakai

Goku with a power level of a 100 can't be erased by a Hakai attack with the power level of 90 because Hakai can be overpowered with AP. But a Hakai attack of 110 AP would kill him.

Existence Erasure Hax: From the Hax page
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."

EE Hax < Resistance to EE Hax < Resistance Negation < Resistance to Resistance Negation < Infinite Layers of resistance to EE Hax

Infinite AP Hakai < EE Hax

EE hax completely ignores AP. Goku with Infinite AP would just get erased by EE hax because it's not like Hakai and completely ignores AP. EE hax does not care about the AP chain because Hax completely ignores it. Hakai's potency is in the AP chain not in a Hax chain. It's weakness to AP is something Hax does not have.

 

[Kachon123]

I agree with the OP

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I know we have policies on verse equalization, but it's also other characters outside of Dragon Ball even if they resisted other character's EE wouldn't quite mean Beerus' Haki wouldn't work. You need a Ki/Aura with enough power to resist the Haki in order to resist a GoD's Haki is another interpretation.

Also, it was agreed to give a middle ground practice. Saying all hax in Dragon Ball is just garbage tier hax that only works on weaker characters is downplaying Dragon Ball, likewise making their hax something that only really powerful Dragon Ball characters can resist would be an example of overplaying Dragon Ball. So we go with middle ground practices, hax in Dragon Ball (In it's original form) shouldn't be treated too far different hax of any other verse. And while we don't equalize all UES as exactly the same thing with all abilities, Dragon Ball's at bare minimum has basics and with hax's included in its UES should net them how hax resistance also is one of the additional abilities that comes with its UES. Haki is EE and thus negates durability, and Ki is a UES that grants resistance to similar UES based hax, so characters with stronger Ki than Beerus can train themselves to resist his Haki and it is still resistance. It basically has two requirements to resist Beerus Haki, you need both resistance to EE and durability comparable to Beerus' AP.

Most disagreed with this topic, I think it should be closed, there's nothing left to argue, other than this topic here is the person wrote this without a head lol

 

[SummerBlue]

Most disagreed with this topic, I think it should be closed, there's nothing left to argue, other than this topic here is the person wrote this without a head lol

Toby stop lying.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Toby stop lying.

I'm not lying, the person who made this topic didn't think about it at the time and he doesn't even know the concepts of Dragon Ball, there should be a rule against trying to change such a thing

I am totally against this, in addition to having others in this topic who think this same topic is absurd, let's take the chair away from a wheelchair user to see if he can get around? It's just an example

Ki is everything in DB, don't try to apply a concept that doesn't exist in DB, where other works don't work with the same concept, that's crazy

If you remove the concept of ki in DB, no human will be able to live, ki is directly linked to the person's soul and body, so defending such a hax with the ki of yes resistance to such a skill

Sorry for the example, but exactly how ki works, ki is like a part of the body, there is no logic to nerf an ability or remove it, just because it supports ki.

Anyway, I'm leaving here and going to work.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Most disagreed with this topic, I think it should be closed, there's nothing left to argue, other than this topic here is the person wrote this without a head lol