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Remove Junko's Physical World/Avatar key (Touhou Project)
- Thread starter Shmooply
- Start date
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
When the thread is bump!! 
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pmuB
- 15,881
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I agree with the OP but I myself lack knowledge on this verse to give any real in depth input beyond that. I do think Saikou brought up interesting points but looking at the response post, my opinion hasn't changed.
- 9,553
- 10,922
- Thread starter
- #133
4k now, can't take this shit no more.
- 167,862
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@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen @Udlmaster
Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?
Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
Saikou disagrees, but the reason for his disagreement seems to be based on misunderstanding a lot of context the verse has spent many years building up. He also assumes that characters interacting with something incorporeal is always an anti-feat, and not just NPI. I'd be happy to give a short recap of what the arguments are and further elaboration, if any staff evaluating here needs it, but Griffin seems to already think my prior response suffices.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
Since Saikou's arguments are likely going to be brought up again, I would like to say that he is incorrect in assuming that we are treating Junko as though she is a member of the Eight Million Gods. This is incorrect, as gods were nameless prior to everything else, and nameless things are always considered divine spirits. Junko, as a nameless divine spirit, is not a god, but rather, what the gods used to be before there were gods, if that makes sense. This is about as simple as I can make it.
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,925
- 2,128
I think it's fine, I'd still keep her ability to make Avatars, since she would still have that ability, my only scepticism would be relating to her purification;
Is Reimu calling her a "Pure spirit, in short, a Divine spirit" because she's actually a deity or is it because she literally purified herself and removed anything but that divine spark in all beings?
Is Reimu calling her a "Pure spirit, in short, a Divine spirit" because she's actually a deity or is it because she literally purified herself and removed anything but that divine spark in all beings?
- 9,553
- 10,922
- Thread starter
- #140
I explained it in-detail in the OP, but I'll shorten it here. Junko used her purification on herself, which put her in a state similar to that of a deity or divine spirit.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Divine spirits can be considered gods in and of themselves, but they are more commonly treated as the origin of gods (the divine spirits in TD are described as soon-to-be gods, iirc). So it would be the latter imo.
Rakih_Elyan
He/Him- 4,408
- 3,041
My favourite bullet hell franchise crt are being ignored....
Your deductions are convincing to me,i haven't played touhou beyond SDM.
Your deductions are convincing to me,
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
@Saikou_The_Lewd_King disagrees, @LordGriffin1000 agrees, and @Udlmaster agrees. General consensus from regular members is that the CRT is fine.
- 167,862
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Okay. Thank you for the information.
@Saikou_The_Lewd_King
We need some input from you here.
Also: Can somebody summarise the changes that are intended to be applied here please?
- 9,553
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- Thread starter
- #146
Title is already self-explanatory, but the other changes are that four characters get NPI for interacting with Junko since she has a few "state of being" powers, as well as said four characters and some others also getting Enhanced Senses due to being able to see her since she has passive Invisibility.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
I personally wouldn't hold out for Saikou, given that he has a tendency to disappear from Touhou revisions abruptly.
The changes and their reasonings are as follows, in the simplest terms I can put them.
Gods in Touhou have two forms, and thus, two keys: The form they had before reality existed, and the form they had after they created everything and gave themselves avatars to interact with the world. The former form lacks a "name", which in verse is a concept used to create everything from nothingness. When a god loses their name, they go back to that original form and lose their avatar.
Junko has the ability to purify things. However, as explained by word of god, this ability actually reduces things to a nameless state. Junko used this ability on herself, removing her name, something supported by external sources (such as how her title is literally "Being Without Name"). This means she should be in the same state as the gods before they gave themselves names, meaning she should not have an avatar key. This revision is to remove said key, all the avatar-exclusive abilities, and give her a single key with nameless god physiology (and her own powers).
Because lacking a name and form has made her nonexistent, this would mean the small number of characters who can harm her would have upgraded NEP.
TL;DR: Named gods have avatars, nameless gods god, Junko is nameless, so she has no avatar and shouldn't have that key.
The changes and their reasonings are as follows, in the simplest terms I can put them.
Gods in Touhou have two forms, and thus, two keys: The form they had before reality existed, and the form they had after they created everything and gave themselves avatars to interact with the world. The former form lacks a "name", which in verse is a concept used to create everything from nothingness. When a god loses their name, they go back to that original form and lose their avatar.
Junko has the ability to purify things. However, as explained by word of god, this ability actually reduces things to a nameless state. Junko used this ability on herself, removing her name, something supported by external sources (such as how her title is literally "Being Without Name"). This means she should be in the same state as the gods before they gave themselves names, meaning she should not have an avatar key. This revision is to remove said key, all the avatar-exclusive abilities, and give her a single key with nameless god physiology (and her own powers).
Because lacking a name and form has made her nonexistent, this would mean the small number of characters who can harm her would have upgraded NEP.
TL;DR: Named gods have avatars, nameless gods god, Junko is nameless, so she has no avatar and shouldn't have that key.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
Alright. I need to go to work soon so I can apply them later today if nothing against the changes is brought up, or someone else can take care of it if they're willing (I would like to go back and update certain justifications on Junko's profile, like NEP, if at all possible, since it isn't currently using the modern format for that ability).
Rakih_Elyan
He/Him- 4,408
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Scale her with character that fight her in LoLK.
- 9,553
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- Thread starter
- #154
That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the fact she has two speed ratings on her profile, and one of them happens to be omnipresence. Usually, we just ditch the other speed feats and just list the character as omnipresent, but considering the wacky omnipresence of Touhou gods it's weird.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I would say stick with omnipresence (maybe it should be nigh-omnipresence, idk) and mention how nameless gods exist within all things. I can grab scans for that in a moment.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Scans for nameless gods existing in all things. Do we scale characters to infinite speed from fighting omnipresent foes or not?
- 9,553
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- Thread starter
- #157
It's... weird.
So would something like "Speed: Infinite (fought bitches), in addition to Omnipresence (omnipresence stuff here)" work?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I personally think just omnipresence works. I can't think of any instance where an omnipresent character was given a second, regular speed rating just because they fought some guys, like Solaris or YHVH. Might wanna ask a staff member or make a Q&A thread if you're still unsure though.
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