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Relooking at Mario's stats: the sequel

So should we apply what has been agreed here now?
 
Mario and co. withstanding the collapse of Brobot’s dimension should probably be added to their durability section as a supporting feat.
 
I may be wrong, but there's nothing to apply, the things that are being discussed are already on profiles (at the very least Brobot's feat gets re-added, but Matthew has express doubts).

Aside from that, Ryukama and Dino Black Ranger should be tagged and made aware of this thread, they are both staff and knowledgeable members of Mario and gave their controbutions to the previous thread.
 
You know about the second translation I got were it said 'World of Monsters'?

Look like that source says that 'Kingdom of Monsters' sounds more correct:

 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
You know about the second translation I got were it said 'World of Monsters'?

Look like that source says that 'Kingdom of Monsters' sounds more correct:

Click to expand...

Kingdom of Monsters imo honestly doesn't make much sense contextually, and that's actually kinda important given the language at hand.
Still say we get Shiro or some other fluent Japanese user to translate them so we don't have to deal with a **** ton of differing opinions and translations from multiple different people who may or may not be sure on the context and why said scans are needed. The fact we've gotten like 5 varying translations for those scans alone is enough to tell me we have a very real issue at play here and asking Reddit isnt going to help.
 
@Antvasima If I'm guessing correctly, we are determining the legitimacy the Power Stars are in the franchise. To be honest, after seeing the screens of the Japanese translations, I do feel like there's a possibility of implying entirely different, though it's not absolute. I think we should focus on the key words on the multiple translations which are "monsters" and places stated to be made by Bowser, with the English version leaving out the former. It's too hard to make out of as it could meaning anything such as Bowser did created a world and the monsters with it, just world but then have the monsters occupy, the exact opposite in which could mean in a metamorphic sense, among others. Have they say something such as "created monsters within the worlds", it would be easier to speculate. Because of this, I'm going by with what's established in later games, practically in Super Mario Galaxy and it's sequel. I believe Power Stars in those games can become black holes, which are calculated to be 4-C iirc. It's also shown that they can also be Lumas, who possesses the capacity to turn into planets and galaxies with life also occupying them, both visually and in description (A Japanese look at this may help too). With these set of cosmic feats, I don't think it's too far-fetched in believing the Power Stars can make an entirely different space large enough to occupy a sun or stars due to what's given afterward and at the very least it's consistent in terms of tier.

That being said, I do have to agree with what Hagane and another user has pointed out. There are times we were too lenient. I never realized how every time we see a star or something involved with what's more bonafied, we automatically scale it for on-paper reasons. Oppose to the ones we are looking at and how we are determining them, we have previously accepted examples that are really bad in retrospect such as Shadow Mario. The only reason very few of these feats are properly coming together oppose to the many suggested are the actual descriptions and seeing if they actually follows the standards and rules. That's why after this, any feat propose in the franchise within future games for now on, I expect a CRT that goes into detailed such as now. Otherwise, forget it since this is outright ridiculous. Sorry if this isn't helpful but this is my best take on the matter.
 
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The Black Hole calculations were calculated to be around 8 Foe, which is High 4-C. Which is the absolute lowest I'm fine with downgrading the Marios to if we run out of justified 4-A feats. Also, it's even considered believable for Power Stars to even be Galaxy level; the Lumas that turn into Power Stars are actually the ones Rosalina pretty much values above the planet, star, comet, or galaxy birthing Lumas. The lore also does very much carry over to entries both previous and future.

Though, some other arguments brought up is concerns in which they say they're fine with Power Stars having that "Pool of energy", but are iffy on use naturally assuming various bosses channel all of the Power Star's energy into a single attack. But the existence of Tier 4 feats outside of Power Stars combined with the Power Stars basically turning even fodder enemies into literal bosses does hint they still empower the users a great deal. Also, not all bosses have the, "Weakpoint" argument, and throwing objects is more something you give the thrower credit and not the object being thrown. Also, there's things where throwing them off the cliff doesn't actually hurt them, but smashing them on the ground does implies it's the thrower that generates most of the force.

But Dino does more or less make excellent points.
 
I thought that we had decided to use some 4-A feats. Should these not be referenced in the profile pages, with the rejected feats removed, after which we close this thread?
 
Looking at the Brobot destruction feat again, is it certain that everyone tanked the explosion and not Squirps teleporting everyone back to the Whoa Zone? I might also mention Mr. L could have come up with an escape system. We don't see everyone exactly tanking the explosion.
 
Mr. L using an escape system with nothing to support such claim is more of an assumption than to just take the feat as them tanking it, which is what's shown from a glance anyways.
 
Antvasima said:
I thought that we had decided to use some 4-A feats. Should these not be referenced in the profile pages, with the rejected feats removed, after which we close this thread?
Click to expand...
 
Yes, let's just apply what has been accepted.
 
I think that Ryukama rejected scaling from that Yoshi can lay eggs with them inside, but if there are other power star feats to scale from, that is a very different issue.
 
King Boo is still suspended, actually.
We established that he created the arena, but there's no way to tell that those small dots that sometimes pop out behind the background are actual stars.
 
SamanPatou said:
King Boo is still suspended, actually.
We established that he created the arena, but there's no way to tell that those small dots that sometimes pop out behind the background are actual stars.
Click to expand...
Just looked it up, they're very clearly generic stars and space background you'd see in any basic background or wallpaper, you can even see some gaseous clouds as well around a few of the stars. Honestly I don't know why you're calling them "small dots". In fact, I'm pretty sure it's literally the game's standard night skybox from the looks of it, meaning they're quite literally no different from every other star we see in game.
 
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We have an ongoing thread all about not authomatically assume that something is a starry sky if nothing confermirms or very strongly suggests that, regardless of how it looks.
That place isn't even on Earth, it was created in another dimension where King Boo has control over the arena and its appearance, its lighting etc...
That "sky" pops out sometimes behind the great spiral and all the battle takes place is a somewhat small arena where space is distorted (as seen by the segments inside the house).
There's definitely nothing aside visual appearance (that is also subject to personal interpretation) and a recycled skybox isn't an evidence, otherwise I could say that it is the normal sky just covered by Boo's arena.
Also, there's no reason whatsoever for which Boo should have created thousands of stars and systems just to fight Luigi in a restricted area without caring of anything outside it.
 
The main point was actually to not assume that something is a starry sky just because it can even remotely resemble one.
 
There's absolutely no need to shout, I'm not being rude with anyone, as far as I know, and I'd like you to do the same thing, if you please.
Also, just like you argue your points I have to right to argue mine, without you getting upset about it.

Also, I'm not the only one to agree with that, the duck example was even questioned in the same topic.
 
We have an ongoing thread all about not authomatically assume that something is a starry sky if nothing confermirms or very strongly suggests that, regardless of how it looks.
Click to expand...

And? Big difference here between what we see and what's an actual issue in that thread. I'm referring to you saying they aren't stars, whether or not it scales to his AP, are just random dots, or whatever isn't my concern. You said they weren't stars, I went to look, and they are absolutely intended to look like stars and space, saying they aren't is blatant dishonesty.

That place isn't even on Earth, it was created in another dimension where King Boo has control over the arena and its appearance, its lighting etc...
Click to expand...

Yes, it isn't earth, it's a different dimension. Sure, he has control over some visual aspects of it, what's your point? That he's going out of his way to make fake tiny dots that just so happen to look identical to every other night time sky box in the game (if not literally being said sky box repurposed)? Be real here, you're grasping at straws.

That "sky" pops out sometimes behind the great spiral and all the battle takes place is a somewhat small arena where space is distorted (as seen by the segments inside the house).
Click to expand...

Why are you saying "sometimes", you get a multitude of clear shots of it in the cutscenes, it's not like you get tiny glimpses of it while the spiral effect turns or whatever rotates, you get several panning shots, of which show a clear starry sky, filled with stars identical to the rest found in the game, along with the usual space visuals like some pink and blue gaseous space clouds surrounding several stars or twinkling constellation esque stars.

There's definitely nothing aside visual appearance (that is also subject to personal interpretation) and a recycled skybox isn't an evidence, otherwise I could say that it is the normal sky just covered by Boo's arena.
Click to expand...

Yes, the visual appearance, that clearly shows it to be the stars and generic space shit. Like it or not, it is what it is, and no you can't say that, because if I'm not wrong, we're explicitly told that they're in an alternate dimension, so no, you can't say that, because you'd literally be lying.

I'm going to be blunt here, I don't give a shit if it scales to AP, I don't care if it's an applicable feat to scaling, I don't care if it's an outlier, but you cant sit there and tell me it ISNT a basic ass space background. Are you actually going to argue that it isnt? If so, do tell, what is it then? If you can't tell me what they are, as in, you have to guess, then I'm sorry but that isn't going to cut it.
 
SamanPatou said:
There's absolutely no need to shout, I'm not being rude with anyone, as far as I know, and I'd like you to do the same thing, if you please.
Also, just like you argue your points I have to right to argue mine, without you getting upset about it.

Also, I'm not the only one to agree with that, the duck example was even questioned in the same topic.
Click to expand...
Ok so then what are they? If the literal space background isn't actually space what is it then? Answer this without using the words "could" "maybe" "possibly" "likely" or "potentially". I want an actual clear cut answer not based upon conjecture, if you want to say they aren't actually stars and space, you must have actual reasoning and evidence to suggest they aren't right?
 
If it looks like a star, acts like a source of light, and is in a background... it should blatantly be a star. It'd quite literally be the bigger assumption to say they aren't stars because... why not?
 
I'm not saying that it doesn't resemble a starry sky, but proving that something is actually what it looks like, aside from plain visual appearance, should be like the basis of everything.

And, I mean, you're making conjectures just like me, because there's no real way to tell what they are or aren't. A clear cut option is impossible to give, as we lack any kind of evidence aside it being just there.
They may be just lights in the same way the big purple spiral and the vorticous mass of purple "air" are just what they are, i.e. part of the background mainly made as a design choice.

Also, in the same way you ask me to give clear evidences on them not being stars, you should do the same and give real proof that they are, aside from them resembling stars.

And it shouldn't be blatantly a star without context, otherwise we can just pick anything that unexplained in any verse and just tier and powers to anyone based on what they look like to us, which is basically making things up.

The other thread makes a lot of examples of otherwordly places with strange light effects, but we don't automatically assume they are stars or nebulaes or something.

When trying to use something to give a tier, a power or else the burden of proof should be on those who want to apply it, with something more than "it looks like that".

Also, asking for politeness has nothing to do with the thread, I don't see why attacking me should make your point stronger or mine weaker, it just makes thing worse.
 
I'm not saying that it doesn't resemble a starry sky, but proving that something is actually what it looks like, aside from plain visual appearance, should be like the basis of everything.
Click to expand...

That's ridiculous. If it is identical to every other star filled night time skybox in the game, has the run of the mill basic space effects like the gaseous clouds or constellation esque effects. it's literally what it is. Burden of proof is on you to prove they aren't in this scenario as your proposal is the conclusion that disregards what evidence we do have in favor of an alternative that' is completely unfounded by what we do see and the precedence set by the game itself, occam's razer says they are, you're literally saying that stars and space being used to represent what looks to be stars and space needs to be proven to be stars and space. You realize there's asking for evidence of something that's vague and has a some uncertainty to it, and then there's this.

And, I mean, you're making conjectures just like me, because there's no real way to tell what they are or aren't. A clear cut option is impossible to give, as we lack any kind of evidence aside it being just there.
Click to expand...

You're being ridiculous and grasping at straws to say they aren't. It is quite literally a starry night time sky. Does it scale to AP? Is it applicable to tier? The answer is I don't know and honestly not my concern, but you're sitting here telling me a space background isnt space and it could be something else, no offense here but that isnt how it works, you have to actively go out of your way to say they aren't and all the while having no concrete alternative to what they're clearly intended to be, if you can't even give an actual alternative here that should be implication that chances are, whatever you think it could be isn't what it actually is.

They may be just lights in the same way the big purple spiral and the vorticous mass of purple "air" are just what they are, i.e. part of the background mainly made as a design choice.
Click to expand...

Come on now, that isn't even an actual argument, you are quite literally saying "they arent stars they could be lights". The big purple spiral and mass of purple wind are a mass of wind and a spiral because that's what they are as that's what we see and how they function, just like how the space background is space because it's a consistent portrayal of what space is in particular that game. Is it a design choice? Yes, it is, of course it is, but what's that supposed to change? If the game designers decided to use a space background for King Boo's dimension, then they used a generic space background for King Boo's dimension, it being a design choice doesn't change the fact his dimension has space in it, because that's what they chose to have it be filled with, if they used a fire background instead it'd be a fire dimension, if it was underwater, it'd be a water dimension, they used the space background, so it's a space dimension.

Also, in the same way you ask me to give clear evidences on them not being stars, you should do the same and give real proof that they are, aside from them resembling stars.
Click to expand...

The fact they consistent with the game's depictions of space for the most part and even go as far as to have extra added space effects to paint a proper depiction of a space-esque skybox is proof enough, it's more than "these white dots could be stars", don't be dishonest and act like my judgement is based only on white dots on a black background, because that's not even how it looks to begin with, they aren't just lights and they don't just "resemble" stars, for all intents and purposes they are exactly that. Hell, the fact you have to finish with "aside from" and have already admitted it looks like stars and the like should be evidence enough you're grasping.

And it shouldn't be blatantly a star without context, otherwise we can just pick anything that unexplained in any verse and just tier and powers to anyone based on what they look like to us, which is basically making things up.
Click to expand...

The context is King Boo made a dimension that is separate from their own, and the dimension is filled with stars and other such things you'd find in space. That's the context, that's what it's shown to be, so that's what it is. Nobody is saying it should blatantly be a star without context, but there's a fine line between "well it could be a star or couldn't, it isn't quite clear and we can't ascertain that from visual evidence alone here so we cant say for sure" and "literally space". Also yes actually, we do that all the time, we assume and draw conclusions on things that may not be fully explained in detail based on the visual evidence and context provided to us, within reason of course. This is one of those times were it's so blatantly something that saying it ISNT it is the sus alternative, not saying they are.

The other thread makes a lot of examples of otherwordly places with strange light effects, but we don't automatically assume they are stars or nebulaes or something.
Click to expand...

I mean yeah, of course, strange lights wouldn't be nebulae, because nebulae don't even look like lights to begin with. Also you really need to cut it out with the "strange light effects" or "tiny white dots" or "small lights" thing, me and you both know that doesn't apply here, as wacky and ****** the central battle arena may be, the background is standard space, it isn't like there's a discrepancy between what we're assuming to be stars and what we know to be stars elsewhere, they're the same thing. You're talking of general guidelines for things with no context or point of reference fyi, we have reference here.

When trying to use something to give a tier, a power or else the burden of proof should be on those who want to apply it, with something more than "it looks like that".
Click to expand...

Well fortunately I'm not trying to give anyone a tier, power or anything of that sort, that's everyone else. All I'm saying is that in the King Boo boss battle, based on the several videos I went and looked at and based on my own recollection of the game and its previous stages and scenes, the skybox is a clear and blatant representation of space, filled with stars and various space like visuals. This isn't up for debate. It's not a matter of "it looks like it", it's a matter of it is that.

Also, asking for politeness has nothing to do with the thread, I don't see why attacking me should make your point stronger or mine weaker, it just makes thing worse.
Click to expand...

Not attacking you, didn't even comment on that. I still stand by everything I said, it's space, end of story, occam's razer exists, it has more than just lights on a black ground having even added space visuals and I'm like 99% sure it's literally the nighttime skybox. That's more than enough to suggest it's space, as such, it's on you to give evidence they aren't now. If you can't, then drop it, your entire argument is taking a general guideline and extrapolating it to an extreme beyond reason and what it's actually intended to be used for to try and say what we see aren't stars but rather something else without even knowing what that something else is to begin with. As said, I don't care nor do I even know if this scales to AP, durability, hax, tiering, or whatever for King Boo, at the end of the day i don't care what tier Mario ends up at really but if you want to argue this showing isn't legit, that's fine, but pick a different reason then the stars and background because it aint gonna be for that.
 
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