Relooking at Mario's stats: the sequel

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Continued from here. Ant requested a restart since the last one was prone to ad nauseam circular arguments and derailments.

Power Stars​

Feat: Power Stars created worlds in paintings that contained stars according to Wiggler.

Contentions: While the English localization of SM64 states Bowser "created" the worlds, the original japanese text may conflict with this (there seems to be multiple different translations and multiple interpretations of what they mean). It's also being argued that said worlds existed prior to Bowser stealing the Power Stars due to having their own histories (meaning Bowser didn't create them and simply sought to conquer them), whether or not being "empowered" by Power Stars automatically means you're Tier 4 and an argument that cites the feat as simply being Immersion. Matthew Schroeder and Eficiente currently disagree with the feat.

King Boo​

Feat: King Boo created a realm that contained stars, with this translation confirming it was an actual space he created and not an illusion.

Bowser​

Feat: Bowser turned Yoshi's island into a pop-up book containing stars.

This one currently isn't a topic of discussion due to the main focus being on Power Stars, though it apparently is debatable.


Accepted feats:

• King Boo
• Brobot

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I would add that Yoshi pooping out a Power Star and Shadow Mario's leading to another realm were both rejected in the last thread for the sake of summary too. Unsure about Brobot though because DDM brought more to argue for that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Brobot is still under contention I believe, yes.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Following

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Posting my previous response.

And you see the issue with examples like comics, paintings, and TV? They already have pre-existing videos/images to use immersion on. Several levels can also take place inside walls or just random holes.

"Examples of Immersion would be jumping through paintings into the worlds displayed on them, entering a book and becoming part of the story, and so on."

As the page itself claims, there should be some type of display on each section, otherwise what are they using immersion from when Mario jumps inside of a wall. There's nothing to display a desert. So no, immersion is still wrong, the page itself doesn't use creation at all.

The argument that "well we don't know if they're stars in King Boo's level" is pretty bad and the exact same reason why the 4-A Kid Icarus downgrade didn't go through because of the argument that they could be something else besides stars. And yes, Luigi scales, he takes attacks from King Boo and from the jewel in Dark Moon and 3.

Baby Bowser's 4-A feat comes from changing the entire structure into a pop-up book, unsure what the argument even is.

 

[Starsprite53]

Let's not forget this stage

 

[SMASHssf2]

Let's see

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Following here. I still agree that Power Stars aren't something that scale.

 

[Lou_change]

I just found some evidence for ztar scaling to power stars and that is how I found out about this. Honestly my question is how is yoshi's feat not valid there is a fullness meter and the names of the moons are named:
Gobbling Fruit with Yoshi
Yoshi's Second Helping!
Yoshi's All Filled Up
Yoshi Under Siege
Fruit Feast Under Siege
Yoshi on the Sinking Island
Fruit Feast on the Sinking Island
Yoshi's Magma Swamp
Fruit Feast in the Magma Swamp!

None of those names such he found the power moons but that he ate a lot of fruit and pooped a moon.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

4-A *****

Anyway, I don’t think shifting the discussion back to the rejected feats is a good idea.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Yea don’t be memers

 

[ElixirBlue]

4-A *****

Anyway, I don’t think shifting the discussion back to the rejected feats is a good idea.

Wasn't only 1 feat of Yoshi's was rejected? Not:

Gobbling Fruit with Yoshi
Yoshi's Second Helping!
Yoshi's All Filled Up
Yoshi Under Siege
Fruit Feast Under Siege
Yoshi on the Sinking Island
Fruit Feast on the Sinking Island
Yoshi's Magma Swamp
Fruit Feast in the Magma Swamp!

 

[Armorchompy]

They're all the same feat, just done over and over in different environments, it's the exact same logic though

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm still very iffy on saying that the power stars scale in power to Bowser as well as the "evil spell" he casted on Yoshi's Island.

The sane for King Boo's feat, he can even have created that place, but we see it being a zone were space is distorted (see the house part), there are objects floating and Boo has control over the background and the arena, initially it's just black, then there are windows, Mario's painting and the whole pace seems enclosed in that purple spiral. I'm totally not convinced that Boo also created dozens or stars and system outside that small, warped arena (where he has control over its appearance and shape) just because yes.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Wasn't only 1 feat of Yoshi's was rejected? Not:

Gobbling Fruit with Yoshi
Yoshi's Second Helping!
Yoshi's All Filled Up
Yoshi Under Siege
Fruit Feast Under Siege
Yoshi on the Sinking Island
Fruit Feast on the Sinking Island
Yoshi's Magma Swamp
Fruit Feast in the Magma Swamp!

All of that is just the “Yoshi creates Power Stars” crap (pun intended) that was already removed from the profiles.

 

[SamanPatou]

Iffy on Brobot too, I'm more prone to think that Luigi teleported everyone to exploit the propertirs of space as an advantage for his robot, instead of creating hundreds and hundreds of stars and systems out of nowhere just to fight Mario in a place without gravity.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already explained how the Aftermath would have been if that was the case.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yeah, still disagree with the Brobot feat unless there’s direct confirmation he created star systems like with King Boo.

 

[SamanPatou]

To me it's also possible that they returned because Brobot's influence ended, the entire transitions are based on showing how the gimmick of the game allows creative ways to change the setting. I don't think we should just assume that Brobot created all those star systems for no reason just be in space with Mario and exploit the absence of gravity, especially without confirmations.

 

[SamanPatou]

Yeah, still disagree with the Brobot feat unless there’s direct confirmation he created star systems like with King Boo.

We have confirmation that King Boo created that place, there's no mention of the stars in it, and I'm dubious on them for reasons I said before.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

We have confirmation that King Boo created that place, there's no mention of the stars in it, and I'm dubious on them for reasons I said before

Wasn't it shown that he warped the place?

 

[ElixirBlue]

All of that is just the “Yoshi creates Power Stars” crap (pun intended) that was already removed from the profiles.

But aren't each situation different or were they all the same?

 

[ElixirBlue]

We have confirmation that King Boo created that place, there's no mention of the stars in it, and I'm dubious on them for reasons I said before.

Visually, yes, unless you want to claim white dots on a black background were intented by the creators to be snow. Weirdly, spaced-out snow.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

But aren't each situation different or were they all the same?

It’s all just him eating fruit.

 

[SamanPatou]

Wasn't it shown that he warped the place?

I'm not sure of what you mean, but the first part is KB toying with Luigi in a dark place with only a purple floor, until he creates the arena.
KB then charges the crown and creates the surrounding, which is the purple spiral and the electricity that limits the arena.
Then during the first fight KB summons balls and morph the ground when slamming on it, and the background changes colors.
Then Boo breaks the arena and summons/creates a door that lead Luigi inside a corridor, after which Luigi comes out from another window (this has to be some kind of compressed space, since we don't see the house from outside, just the window).
The second fight is lile the first, with floating objects all around and lightnings than create sand.
Then another corridor, longer and with more things inside, and the final battle, identical to the previous but with more objects floating and lightnings that turn the ground into ice.

This shows that King Boo has a pretty good control over the place (warping colors and lights of the background), space (the house/corridor accessible through a window and not visible from outside) and matter (creating objects, the house, spiky balls, lightnings etc...).

 

[SamanPatou]

Visually, yes, unless you want to claim white dots on a black background were intented by the creators to be snow. Weirdly, spaced-out snow.

I claim that we don't have evidences of those dots being actual stars in their systems millions of light years away from the small arena King Boo created to fight Luigi in a restriscred place and over which he has great control on various aspects (as I listed in my previous message).
King Boo also warped the background before the fight and created that purple spiral that moves and changes in colors and lighting, so it's perfectly plausible for the starry pattern that sometimes pops out to be another part of the background, that may have been put there just to make it look different.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

If Odyssey feat was Tier 4 shouldn't that also be considered a Mario feat as Mario and Yoshi's bodies are fused during that feat

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They're all the same feat, just done over and over in different environments, it's the exact same logic though

Yeah, it's like those "Goku Respect Threads" where they list every universe-busting statement in Episode 12 as a separate feat.

It's not a different feat just the same one.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean yes, look I am sorry for bringing it up but I think the whole yoshi found it idea is ridiculous however shouldn't scale to AP.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

For 4-A

Also following

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Yeah, still disagree with the Brobot feat unless there’s direct confirmation he created star systems like with King Boo.

That's not a reason when you don't respond to the listed reasons. The fact that the backgrounds are clearly not Outerspace (world 4), that itself already means it wasn't teleportation.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Pure Conjecture

 

[DatOneWeeb]

World 4

Brobot's battle

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Why would it be conjecture, the transition already shows us the feat.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

What makes it an absolute certainty that the transition represents Creation?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The first transition is too vague, it can either be teleportation or creation. But the Aftermath is clearly a destruction of the entire background or wherever they're in. That heavily conflicts with being teleportation to begin with. But, if you really want to be more efficient, find the Japanese scan of the quote and have someone translate that. But the process of elimination formula makes creating it and then destroying it to be the most logical conclusion. There's no statement that it will just undo the teleportation sequence when destroyed.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Because it's not only a location you can't find anywhere (You can even see how space looks in separate dimensions), but the second transition shows it all break up and disappear as soon as he is defeated. Mario is shown standing still but Luigi is falling?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

following

 

[ElixirBlue]

I claim that we don't have evidences of those dots being actual stars in their systems millions of light years away from the small arena King Boo created to fight Luigi in a restriscred place and over which he has great control on various aspects (as I listed in my previous message).

But there are no evidences of white dots on a black background to be anything else. Especially with this franchise's long history with space, they would have design the background to be clearer if it was something else than a starry sky, as they have with the purple spirals.

King Boo also warped the background before the fight and created that purple spiral that moves and changes in colors and lighting, so it's perfectly plausible for the starry pattern that sometimes pops out to be another part of the background, that may have been put there just to make it look different.

Odd, as the Mario franchise is very familiar on what a starry background looks like at that point. White dots on a black background.

 

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

Siding with Blaze and 4-A arguments