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Relooking at Mario's stats: the sequel

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I agree with you that most of the times these things are game mechanics or just things made for the sake of the game, but what I don't like is the snowball effect that comes from accepting the thing.

Mario is unscated by Brobot wiping out thousands of solar systems > Brobot and others things can harm Mario > All of them are now superior to that explosion.
I mean, I know that the word is hated, but couldn't it really be an outlier or another case of mechanics/inconsistent thing?
I'm definitely more likely to believe that instead of scaling all of them over that small and isolated thing. (I'm not even convinced that it actually destroyed a 4-A structure, but this doesn't matter)
That's kind of just how scaling works. I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel odd about a random robot that gets hurt by bad words as 3-A, but it doesn't stop the fact he has the feats to support his scaling.

It would really only be an outlier if the King Boo and Power Star stuff get rejected, otherwise, they're just going to keep their 4-A ratings with this as yet another supporting feat with the others they have. Isolated would not really be the right word in that context because it'd be a repeated thing they've shown to be comparable to.
 

SamanPatou

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Well, the developers needed a way to quickly bring back the cast on "Earth" without renouncing entirely to the space battle.
That's what I meant with mechanics.

Looking through and debate all of the 4-A-related feats in the series will be a loooong journey.

I'm also iffy on used stuff from other games to judge this feat coninstent or not , but I don't really have clear-cut arguments on my side.

@Medeus I get your point, though it's strange to think that Mario is virtually invulnerable to anything Brobot could do to harm him
 
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I'm also iffy on used stuff from other games to judge this feat coninstent or not , but I don't really have clear-cut arguments on my side
I mean this is something we do with every franchise. If it fits inside of the continuity/canon, using comparisons to other past and future feats are completely fair game. It's kind of necessary too when Mario's profile covers his appearances in all of these canon games.
 

SamanPatou

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@Ploz I know, it's just that somewhere (possibly in the MGS CRT) it was popular the idea to evaluate the consistency of a feat within the game in which it happens.

Btw, Magetta ism't really fit for the example, because that's a phsicological thing, but DB is totally a good example of the thing
 

Antvasima

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Medeus:

So what is the consensus regarding which 4-A feats that are useful and we should use to scale from?
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I think it's been agreed that the Brobot destruction is at the very least a solid 4-A durability feat, the next topic on the list I believe is the Super Mario 64 dimensions. But I only got 15 minutes before work; Maverick may update the OP. If more arguments get brought up, I might be able to come back afterwards.
 
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but I still hardly believe that, because throughout the game (before and after) Mario and co. are constantly harmed by generic stuff and random creatures
I think your issue is that you can’t believe the random monsters are capable of surviving 4-A feats and causing harm to those that have survived it. Cool, as I can’t believe things like Cell Jr.’s or random Mechs from other franchises are capable of destroying a mountain or surviving the destruction of one on 1st glance.

Perception and facts don’t like each other.
 

SamanPatou

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I think your issue is that you can’t believe the random monsters are capable of surviving 4-A feats and causing harm to those that have survived it. Cool, as I can’t believe things like Cell Jr.’s or random Mechs from other franchises are capable of destroying a mountain or surviving the destruction of one on 1st glance.

Perception and facts don’t like each other.
It's a bit different, at least for me, but you surely have a point
 
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I think it's been agreed that the Brobot destruction is at the very least a solid 4-A durability feat, the next topic on the list I believe is the Super Mario 64 dimensions. But I only got 15 minutes before work; Maverick may update the OP. If more arguments get brought up, I might be able to come back afterwards.
Yeah, we should probably settle which interpretation of the SM64 feats we're using and the scaling because I am currently hella confused about that.
 
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So Mario and Mr. L have a 4-A durability feat.
Technically it applies to Bowser and Peach as well :p

My arguments for the Power Stars is:

  • Bowser was stated to create these worlds
  • Said worlds contain a sun and were stated to have stars like a day and night system (Should be noted considering how the sun is our source of light in these levels proves they're real)
  • Mario and Luigi scale to Power Star users as they consistently defeat enemies who are amped by them in several games such as 64, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, and Odyssey.
 
Kart and Party is kind of weird for scaling. Since fodders are playable, we only really scale it in a way that makes sense. Bowser basically in every Mario Party game is shown to basically crush the players or harm them. King Boo does the same in one of the boss mini-games iirc. I was planning on maybe doing a Mario Party thread, but that will take a lot of time.
This is why I'm against using the speed feat
 

SamanPatou

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I may be wrong, but there's nothing to apply, the things that are being discussed are already on profiles (at the very least Brobot's feat gets re-added, but Matthew has express doubts).

Aside from that, Ryukama and Dino Black Ranger should be tagged and made aware of this thread, they are both staff and knowledgeable members of Mario and gave their controbutions to the previous thread.
 
You know about the second translation I got were it said 'World of Monsters'?

Look like that source says that 'Kingdom of Monsters' sounds more correct:

 
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You know about the second translation I got were it said 'World of Monsters'?

Look like that source says that 'Kingdom of Monsters' sounds more correct:

Kingdom of Monsters imo honestly doesn't make much sense contextually, and that's actually kinda important given the language at hand.
Still say we get Shiro or some other fluent Japanese user to translate them so we don't have to deal with a fuck ton of differing opinions and translations from multiple different people who may or may not be sure on the context and why said scans are needed. The fact we've gotten like 5 varying translations for those scans alone is enough to tell me we have a very real issue at play here and asking Reddit isnt going to help.
 

Dino_Ranger_Black

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@Antvasima If I'm guessing correctly, we are determining the legitimacy the Power Stars are in the franchise. To be honest, after seeing the screens of the Japanese translations, I do feel like there's a possibility of implying entirely different, though it's not absolute. I think we should focus on the key words on the multiple translations which are "monsters" and places stated to be made by Bowser, with the English version leaving out the former. It's too hard to make out of as it could meaning anything such as Bowser did created a world and the monsters with it, just world but then have the monsters occupy, the exact opposite in which could mean in a metamorphic sense, among others. Have they say something such as "created monsters within the worlds", it would be easier to speculate. Because of this, I'm going by with what's established in later games, practically in Super Mario Galaxy and it's sequel. I believe Power Stars in those games can become black holes, which are calculated to be 4-C iirc. It's also shown that they can also be Lumas, who possesses the capacity to turn into planets and galaxies with life also occupying them, both visually and in description (A Japanese look at this may help too). With these set of cosmic feats, I don't think it's too far-fetched in believing the Power Stars can make an entirely different space large enough to occupy a sun or stars due to what's given afterward and at the very least it's consistent in terms of tier.

That being said, I do have to agree with what Hagane and another user has pointed out. There are times we were too lenient. I never realized how every time we see a star or something involved with what's more bonafied, we automatically scale it for on-paper reasons. Oppose to the ones we are looking at and how we are determining them, we have previously accepted examples that are really bad in retrospect such as Shadow Mario. The only reason very few of these feats are properly coming together oppose to the many suggested are the actual descriptions and seeing if they actually follows the standards and rules. That's why after this, any feat propose in the franchise within future games for now on, I expect a CRT that goes into detailed such as now. Otherwise, forget it since this is outright ridiculous. Sorry if this isn't helpful but this is my best take on the matter.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus

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The Black Hole calculations were calculated to be around 8 Foe, which is High 4-C. Which is the absolute lowest I'm fine with downgrading the Marios to if we run out of justified 4-A feats. Also, it's even considered believable for Power Stars to even be Galaxy level; the Lumas that turn into Power Stars are actually the ones Rosalina pretty much values above the planet, star, comet, or galaxy birthing Lumas. The lore also does very much carry over to entries both previous and future.

Though, some other arguments brought up is concerns in which they say they're fine with Power Stars having that "Pool of energy", but are iffy on use naturally assuming various bosses channel all of the Power Star's energy into a single attack. But the existence of Tier 4 feats outside of Power Stars combined with the Power Stars basically turning even fodder enemies into literal bosses does hint they still empower the users a great deal. Also, not all bosses have the, "Weakpoint" argument, and throwing objects is more something you give the thrower credit and not the object being thrown. Also, there's things where throwing them off the cliff doesn't actually hurt them, but smashing them on the ground does implies it's the thrower that generates most of the force.

But Dino does more or less make excellent points.
 

Antvasima

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I thought that we had decided to use some 4-A feats. Should these not be referenced in the profile pages, with the rejected feats removed, after which we close this thread?
 
Looking at the Brobot destruction feat again, is it certain that everyone tanked the explosion and not Squirps teleporting everyone back to the Whoa Zone? I might also mention Mr. L could have come up with an escape system. We don't see everyone exactly tanking the explosion.
 
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Mr. L using an escape system with nothing to support such claim is more of an assumption than to just take the feat as them tanking it, which is what's shown from a glance anyways.
 

Antvasima

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I think that Ryukama rejected scaling from that Yoshi can lay eggs with them inside, but if there are other power star feats to scale from, that is a very different issue.
 

SamanPatou

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King Boo is still suspended, actually.
We established that he created the arena, but there's no way to tell that those small dots that sometimes pop out behind the background are actual stars.
 
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King Boo is still suspended, actually.
We established that he created the arena, but there's no way to tell that those small dots that sometimes pop out behind the background are actual stars.
Just looked it up, they're very clearly generic stars and space background you'd see in any basic background or wallpaper, you can even see some gaseous clouds as well around a few of the stars. Honestly I don't know why you're calling them "small dots". In fact, I'm pretty sure it's literally the game's standard night skybox from the looks of it, meaning they're quite literally no different from every other star we see in game.
 
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SamanPatou

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We have an ongoing thread all about not authomatically assume that something is a starry sky if nothing confermirms or very strongly suggests that, regardless of how it looks.
That place isn't even on Earth, it was created in another dimension where King Boo has control over the arena and its appearance, its lighting etc...
That "sky" pops out sometimes behind the great spiral and all the battle takes place is a somewhat small arena where space is distorted (as seen by the segments inside the house).
There's definitely nothing aside visual appearance (that is also subject to personal interpretation) and a recycled skybox isn't an evidence, otherwise I could say that it is the normal sky just covered by Boo's arena.
Also, there's no reason whatsoever for which Boo should have created thousands of stars and systems just to fight Luigi in a restricted area without caring of anything outside it.
 

SamanPatou

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The main point was actually to not assume that something is a starry sky just because it can even remotely resemble one.
 

SamanPatou

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There's absolutely no need to shout, I'm not being rude with anyone, as far as I know, and I'd like you to do the same thing, if you please.
Also, just like you argue your points I have to right to argue mine, without you getting upset about it.

Also, I'm not the only one to agree with that, the duck example was even questioned in the same topic.
 
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We have an ongoing thread all about not authomatically assume that something is a starry sky if nothing confermirms or very strongly suggests that, regardless of how it looks.

And? Big difference here between what we see and what's an actual issue in that thread. I'm referring to you saying they aren't stars, whether or not it scales to his AP, are just random dots, or whatever isn't my concern. You said they weren't stars, I went to look, and they are absolutely intended to look like stars and space, saying they aren't is blatant dishonesty.

That place isn't even on Earth, it was created in another dimension where King Boo has control over the arena and its appearance, its lighting etc...

Yes, it isn't earth, it's a different dimension. Sure, he has control over some visual aspects of it, what's your point? That he's going out of his way to make fake tiny dots that just so happen to look identical to every other night time sky box in the game (if not literally being said sky box repurposed)? Be real here, you're grasping at straws.

That "sky" pops out sometimes behind the great spiral and all the battle takes place is a somewhat small arena where space is distorted (as seen by the segments inside the house).

Why are you saying "sometimes", you get a multitude of clear shots of it in the cutscenes, it's not like you get tiny glimpses of it while the spiral effect turns or whatever rotates, you get several panning shots, of which show a clear starry sky, filled with stars identical to the rest found in the game, along with the usual space visuals like some pink and blue gaseous space clouds surrounding several stars or twinkling constellation esque stars.

There's definitely nothing aside visual appearance (that is also subject to personal interpretation) and a recycled skybox isn't an evidence, otherwise I could say that it is the normal sky just covered by Boo's arena.

Yes, the visual appearance, that clearly shows it to be the stars and generic space shit. Like it or not, it is what it is, and no you can't say that, because if I'm not wrong, we're explicitly told that they're in an alternate dimension, so no, you can't say that, because you'd literally be lying.

I'm going to be blunt here, I don't give a shit if it scales to AP, I don't care if it's an applicable feat to scaling, I don't care if it's an outlier, but you cant sit there and tell me it ISNT a basic ass space background. Are you actually going to argue that it isnt? If so, do tell, what is it then? If you can't tell me what they are, as in, you have to guess, then I'm sorry but that isn't going to cut it.
 
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There's absolutely no need to shout, I'm not being rude with anyone, as far as I know, and I'd like you to do the same thing, if you please.
Also, just like you argue your points I have to right to argue mine, without you getting upset about it.

Also, I'm not the only one to agree with that, the duck example was even questioned in the same topic.
Ok so then what are they? If the literal space background isn't actually space what is it then? Answer this without using the words "could" "maybe" "possibly" "likely" or "potentially". I want an actual clear cut answer not based upon conjecture, if you want to say they aren't actually stars and space, you must have actual reasoning and evidence to suggest they aren't right?
 
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If it looks like a star, acts like a source of light, and is in a background... it should blatantly be a star. It'd quite literally be the bigger assumption to say they aren't stars because... why not?
 

SamanPatou

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I'm not saying that it doesn't resemble a starry sky, but proving that something is actually what it looks like, aside from plain visual appearance, should be like the basis of everything.

And, I mean, you're making conjectures just like me, because there's no real way to tell what they are or aren't. A clear cut option is impossible to give, as we lack any kind of evidence aside it being just there.
They may be just lights in the same way the big purple spiral and the vorticous mass of purple "air" are just what they are, i.e. part of the background mainly made as a design choice.

Also, in the same way you ask me to give clear evidences on them not being stars, you should do the same and give real proof that they are, aside from them resembling stars.

And it shouldn't be blatantly a star without context, otherwise we can just pick anything that unexplained in any verse and just tier and powers to anyone based on what they look like to us, which is basically making things up.

The other thread makes a lot of examples of otherwordly places with strange light effects, but we don't automatically assume they are stars or nebulaes or something.

When trying to use something to give a tier, a power or else the burden of proof should be on those who want to apply it, with something more than "it looks like that".

Also, asking for politeness has nothing to do with the thread, I don't see why attacking me should make your point stronger or mine weaker, it just makes thing worse.
 
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I'm not saying that it doesn't resemble a starry sky, but proving that something is actually what it looks like, aside from plain visual appearance, should be like the basis of everything.

That's ridiculous. If it is identical to every other star filled night time skybox in the game, has the run of the mill basic space effects like the gaseous clouds or constellation esque effects. it's literally what it is. Burden of proof is on you to prove they aren't in this scenario as your proposal is the conclusion that disregards what evidence we do have in favor of an alternative that' is completely unfounded by what we do see and the precedence set by the game itself, occam's razer says they are, you're literally saying that stars and space being used to represent what looks to be stars and space needs to be proven to be stars and space. You realize there's asking for evidence of something that's vague and has a some uncertainty to it, and then there's this.

And, I mean, you're making conjectures just like me, because there's no real way to tell what they are or aren't. A clear cut option is impossible to give, as we lack any kind of evidence aside it being just there.

You're being ridiculous and grasping at straws to say they aren't. It is quite literally a starry night time sky. Does it scale to AP? Is it applicable to tier? The answer is I don't know and honestly not my concern, but you're sitting here telling me a space background isnt space and it could be something else, no offense here but that isnt how it works, you have to actively go out of your way to say they aren't and all the while having no concrete alternative to what they're clearly intended to be, if you can't even give an actual alternative here that should be implication that chances are, whatever you think it could be isn't what it actually is.

They may be just lights in the same way the big purple spiral and the vorticous mass of purple "air" are just what they are, i.e. part of the background mainly made as a design choice.

Come on now, that isn't even an actual argument, you are quite literally saying "they arent stars they could be lights". The big purple spiral and mass of purple wind are a mass of wind and a spiral because that's what they are as that's what we see and how they function, just like how the space background is space because it's a consistent portrayal of what space is in particular that game. Is it a design choice? Yes, it is, of course it is, but what's that supposed to change? If the game designers decided to use a space background for King Boo's dimension, then they used a generic space background for King Boo's dimension, it being a design choice doesn't change the fact his dimension has space in it, because that's what they chose to have it be filled with, if they used a fire background instead it'd be a fire dimension, if it was underwater, it'd be a water dimension, they used the space background, so it's a space dimension.

Also, in the same way you ask me to give clear evidences on them not being stars, you should do the same and give real proof that they are, aside from them resembling stars.

The fact they consistent with the game's depictions of space for the most part and even go as far as to have extra added space effects to paint a proper depiction of a space-esque skybox is proof enough, it's more than "these white dots could be stars", don't be dishonest and act like my judgement is based only on white dots on a black background, because that's not even how it looks to begin with, they aren't just lights and they don't just "resemble" stars, for all intents and purposes they are exactly that. Hell, the fact you have to finish with "aside from" and have already admitted it looks like stars and the like should be evidence enough you're grasping.

And it shouldn't be blatantly a star without context, otherwise we can just pick anything that unexplained in any verse and just tier and powers to anyone based on what they look like to us, which is basically making things up.

The context is King Boo made a dimension that is separate from their own, and the dimension is filled with stars and other such things you'd find in space. That's the context, that's what it's shown to be, so that's what it is. Nobody is saying it should blatantly be a star without context, but there's a fine line between "well it could be a star or couldn't, it isn't quite clear and we can't ascertain that from visual evidence alone here so we cant say for sure" and "literally space". Also yes actually, we do that all the time, we assume and draw conclusions on things that may not be fully explained in detail based on the visual evidence and context provided to us, within reason of course. This is one of those times were it's so blatantly something that saying it ISNT it is the sus alternative, not saying they are.

The other thread makes a lot of examples of otherwordly places with strange light effects, but we don't automatically assume they are stars or nebulaes or something.

I mean yeah, of course, strange lights wouldn't be nebulae, because nebulae don't even look like lights to begin with. Also you really need to cut it out with the "strange light effects" or "tiny white dots" or "small lights" thing, me and you both know that doesn't apply here, as wacky and fucked the central battle arena may be, the background is standard space, it isn't like there's a discrepancy between what we're assuming to be stars and what we know to be stars elsewhere, they're the same thing. You're talking of general guidelines for things with no context or point of reference fyi, we have reference here.

When trying to use something to give a tier, a power or else the burden of proof should be on those who want to apply it, with something more than "it looks like that".

Well fortunately I'm not trying to give anyone a tier, power or anything of that sort, that's everyone else. All I'm saying is that in the King Boo boss battle, based on the several videos I went and looked at and based on my own recollection of the game and its previous stages and scenes, the skybox is a clear and blatant representation of space, filled with stars and various space like visuals. This isn't up for debate. It's not a matter of "it looks like it", it's a matter of it is that.

Also, asking for politeness has nothing to do with the thread, I don't see why attacking me should make your point stronger or mine weaker, it just makes thing worse.

Not attacking you, didn't even comment on that. I still stand by everything I said, it's space, end of story, occam's razer exists, it has more than just lights on a black ground having even added space visuals and I'm like 99% sure it's literally the nighttime skybox. That's more than enough to suggest it's space, as such, it's on you to give evidence they aren't now. If you can't, then drop it, your entire argument is taking a general guideline and extrapolating it to an extreme beyond reason and what it's actually intended to be used for to try and say what we see aren't stars but rather something else without even knowing what that something else is to begin with. As said, I don't care nor do I even know if this scales to AP, durability, hax, tiering, or whatever for King Boo, at the end of the day i don't care what tier Mario ends up at really but if you want to argue this showing isn't legit, that's fine, but pick a different reason then the stars and background because it aint gonna be for that.
 
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@Chariot190 Gonna need a tl;dr for your comment
The background for King Boo's dimension is space, pretty clear cut.

Does it scale to AP? Durability? Hax? Is it even an applicable for an offensive purpose? Don't know, don't care. All I know is it's space, saying it isn't is extremely dishonest and saying it isnt just for the sake of it.

Also that post isn't even that long, it shouldn't even take you more than 20 seconds to read it.
 
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King Boo is still suspended, actually.
We established that he created the arena, but there's no way to tell that those small dots that sometimes pop out behind the background are actual stars.
Okay, what else? They are most likely stars, I mean, a space-y background.
 
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Also Saman, having gone though the thread for the starry sky feats you're kinda twisting what was said in that thread, repurposing it here (ignoring it was almost entirely you trying to argue that point), it was almost unanimously ultimately agreed that as long as them being stars is a reasonable assumption from what could be seen with reasonable context and that they look as much and are at least consistent within the game's art, they're more than likely stars. The only person I think that had issues with the looks like a duck thing is you and one other admin, which is fair honestly, as long as it's within reason, but you're taking it the extreme here though and trying to apply that scrutiny to what's evidently space with no real reason to assume otherwise.

The real issue and the issue that was and is being talked about on that thread is starry sky feats actually apply to stats and tiering really, and in that case, don't know, I can't say if this feat actually scales offensively to King Boo or Luigi, all I can conclude for certain is that there's stars and space.
 
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I have to agree with Chariot here. Also, none of this "Well neither of us is right so we're at an impasse" BS here. Occam's Razor exists for a reason, and it would completely side with the idea that he just created the stars in the realm since it takes fewer postulates. The idea is also supported by how they visually look the same as other stars in the game. If the devs really intended for something like this to not be the case, then they'd not make them look like that.
 
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You might be able to argue King Boo's feat can't scale to his offensive power even if that's also wrong, but those are undeniably stars.

So what's accepted and what still needs to be discussed?
Mario and Luigi now have a new 4-A durability feat from Brobot, and King Boo's feat is essentially 100% accepted.

Power Stars are currently "ambitious" and Bowser's pop-up book feat still hasn't been debated.
 

SamanPatou

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I still don't agree at all, but the conclusion has already been reached and the feat accepted by most people, arguing further would just be pointless and counterproductive, so I'll just drop the thing.

Also, I wasn't talking of you, Chariot, when I asked for politeness, but thanks for addressing that.
 

Antvasima

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So is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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Late for work, but I suppose it's worth debating Power Star context or why it scales to the main cast or not. Then Yoshi's Story's pop up book feat is next. But late for work, need to come back.
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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We should also probably use Japanese scans for the Pop-Up Book feat. But anyway, I think the reason people were skeptical about it was people saying, "All he did was transform Yoshi's Island into a pop up Book. So just an Island level feat." But just because the object you transformed is only Island sized, doesn't mean the world you created was only Island sized. It is possible for pocket realities or universes to be created from things otherwise much smaller. It's again, more like the portal is Island sized.

But, most indexing sites described the Pop-up book world as 6 parallel worlds/dimensions called pages. I know DatOneWeeb had a source that it happened in the blink of an eye. So we have timeframe cleared up. But we still very much need a specific source from a Japanese origin translation. The in game transcript does mention 6 worlds, but I haven't seen specific context. And we know using wikis doesn't really count.

DatOneWeeb I heard is sick; he's been tested positive for you know what. But maybe someone else can find a Japanese scan of some of the intro statements.
 
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Well here's the japanese opening for Yoshis Story, no idea which part talks about the island being transformed but going by the english version it should be within the first minute or so. Personally I never really thought of this as an actual 4-A feat, just some really good reality warping/immersion from Bowser, dudes got some nice hax up his sleeves.
 
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Hello, I'm feeling a bit better so I'll give some input.

Dusty, the feat can't be immersion since Bowser didn't use immersion on a pre-existing book, he just turned everything into a book. Despite the text saying island, you can actually see the sun get affected if you rewatch the scene of everyone getting affected by the spell. I'll ask my friend if he can translate, though it might take some time.
 
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