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Reinhard Van Astrea vs Son Goku (GRACE)

Hakai would give Goku a better wincon but he'd still lose.

Basically it'd be better cus it'd no longer be a near stomp match.
 
Null all of the votes and remove grace as well due to the fact that we got a "new" character to debate with new win-cons.

... Personally, I'll go with Reinhard FRA on this one since it seems more likely that he still has a strong win-con here.
 
Reinhard FRA again. Hakai is a better wincon but Reinhard still has the superior "swing sword once"
 
Still with SBA, Goku start with his strongest key which is Granolah Arc, in MUI, he doesn't use Hakai in-character so he lose this match, Reinhard win
 
... Goodness, I'll never be able to fully wrap my head around the idea of Reinhard unironically having the potential to beat Goku (Chou) under speed equal.
 
To be fair Goku can incon or win against Reinhard if he is in Moro arc, since he use Deconstruction at first move, and it is not projectile so Reinhard can't dodge, and Goku will Hakai when Reinhard comeback. Other than that he lose, DB character always have poor compability with match against hax people, even though now with Chou they has some decent hax and resistance, their first move always is punch and kick first, it is the theme of the series anyway, so you will hardly see them using hax at first move
 
Reinhard is not even a protagonist, and we haven't even seen anything from his perspective cause that would be a spoiler, however from the little info we have he has some decent abilities.

I wouldn't put too much sock into his vaguer blessings, like how the heck does Initiative even work, does his attacks always connect cause he knows how his opponents will move, is it some extreme marksmanship/mastery? probability manipulation?

Arrow avoidance has been seen in story, when Elsa threw her knives at him, they changed course, but what principle is it working under, i have no clue.

At least first and proceeding attack immunity got explained though, those were the easiest to wank.
 
Which ability though? Everything relevant has already been said already, but to reiterate:

-As the Sword Saint he has battle instincts which are heightened to perfection, and can see, and read the trajectories of his opponent's attacks. Also sees white lines which if he follows will basically give him the best way to kill his target.

-Superhuman intuition which pre-emptively detects danger and incoming attacks

-Auto dodge attacks he sees for the first time, even attacks he isn't aware of, makes surprise attacks useless, this also wakes him up if he is asleep.

-Once he has dodged an attack it won't ever hit him again, cause he will dodge with way greater speed.

-His sword once drawn engulfs the entire are in a blast, which can recreate stuff which was frozen and shattered at absolute zero, and erase all traces of his target from the world.

-If he dies, Od Laguna, a supernatural entity which is blessing him will revive him, you could stop this if you could destroy his soul, however he would potentially develop a counter to this.

Side note this is a very weird match up.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Which ability though? Everything relevant has already been said already, but to reiterate:

-As the Sword Saint he has battle instincts which are heightened to perfection, and can see, and read the trajectories of his opponent's attacks. Also sees white lines which if he follows will basically give him the best way to kill his target.

-Superhuman intuition which pre-emptively detects danger and incoming attacks

-Auto dodge attacks he sees for the first time, even attacks he isn't aware of, makes surprise attacks useless, this also wakes him up if he is asleep.

-Once he has dodged an attack it won't ever hit him again, cause he will dodge with way greater speed.

-His sword once drawn engulfs the entire are in a blast, which can recreate stuff which was frozen and shattered at absolute zero, and erase all traces of his target from the world.

-If he dies, Od Laguna, a supernatural entity which is blessing him will revive him, you could stop this if you could destroy his soul, however he would potentially develop a counter to this.

Side note this is a very weird match up.
Click to expand...
I took the Initiative protection as his first attack HAS to connect, so he is just quick enough, aims at the perfect angle, or the opponent simply fails to react in time. Probability manipulation is very possible.
Reinhard being able to literally cut through space is what we've been using as a wincon, yeah.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Null all of the votes and remove grace as well due to the fact that we got a "new" character to debate with new win-cons.

... Personally, I'll go with Reinhard FRA on this one since it seems more likely that he still has a strong win-con here.
Click to expand...
I mean do i have to?

Just ping them again and have them vote. We know the results dont change at all
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Which ability though? Everything relevant has already been said already, but to reiterate:

-As the Sword Saint he has battle instincts which are heightened to perfection, and can see, and read the trajectories of his opponent's attacks. Also sees white lines which if he follows will basically give him the best way to kill his target.

-Superhuman intuition which pre-emptively detects danger and incoming attacks

-Auto dodge attacks he sees for the first time, even attacks he isn't aware of, makes surprise attacks useless, this also wakes him up if he is asleep.

-Once he has dodged an attack it won't ever hit him again, cause he will dodge with way greater speed.

-His sword once drawn engulfs the entire are in a blast, which can recreate stuff which was frozen and shattered at absolute zero, and erase all traces of his target from the world.

-If he dies, Od Laguna, a supernatural entity which is blessing him will revive him, you could stop this if you could destroy his soul, however he would potentially develop a counter to this.

Side note this is a very weird match up.
Click to expand...
Can this be added to their profiles yet?
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
I think there was an MCU!Avengers and DCU!Justice League a few months ago, which was speed equal... and everybody decided that Flash just go gun downed by War Machine and/or Iron Man right away due to their AP and the fact that Speed Equal was enforced. Was very funny, IMO.

But to answer your first question, well... Honestly, for fairness. While this match doesn't seem fair, there are a lot of characters in this site which produced very good debates/matches but wouldn't have happened if speed equal was not applied... Speed Equal isn't perfect by any means-the fact that Jojo Chars can retain their MFTL (and below) reactions and MFTL (and below) Stands due to them having separate rating and the fact that speed amps are still fair game are proof of this-but speed equal is required nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Remember that eyes of heaven jotaro vs jiren match?
That was a shitshow,jiren was equalized to jotaro's supersonic speed while sp kept his infinite speed LMAOOOO
 
Myguy said:
Remember that eyes of heaven jotaro vs jiren match?
That was a shitshow,jiren was equalized to jotaro's supersonic speed while sp kept his infinite speed LMAOOOO
Click to expand...
That couldn't happen nowadays after Stand speed equalization rules got applied
Also because HA DIO and TWOH Lost Infinite Reactions and Infinite Speed
 
Ss3micah said:
Having Wincons but being unable to reach them because of your opponents abilities is also considered a stomp
(also I though we were still using DBS Goku)
Click to expand...
We aren't. And he can reach it, just not nearly as often as Reinhard reaches his wincon.
 
Phoenks said:
It's not a stomp. Chou Goku has a wincon with his Hakai.
Click to expand...
Goku would need prior knowledge or at least kill Reinhardt 3 times before he would resort to Hakai
And he would be dead long before achieving that as matter hax is the first thing Reinhardt goes for
 
Phoenks said:
We aren't. And he can reach it, just not nearly as often as Reinhard reaches his wincon.
Click to expand...
The only chance goku has of using Hakai off the bat is with prior knowledge of his immortality
Otherwise goku wont resort to it before killing Reinhardt a few times first
Which will never happen as Matter Hax would be Reinhardt's first move
 
Vietthai96 said:
Reinhard win, because Goku have valid wincon this time, but don't pull it out as first move (or actually he didn't pull it out at all)
Click to expand...
Having Wincons but not being able to feasibly reach them is considered a Stomp
And 1000/1000 times goku wont reach Hakai before Reinhardt goes for Matter Hax
 
TauanVictor said:
Bloodlusted Goku, perhaps?
Click to expand...
That or simply give Goku prior knowledge of Reinhardt Immortality so he knows to go for his Sealing or Hakai
At least then his Wincons would be feasibly viable instead of waiting for god knows when for Goku to figure out he his immortal like zamasu so he'll need those options which will never happen because goku will be long dead
 
Hakai is enough of a wincon on its own for this match to be added.
 
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