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Transformers got downgraded? I thought it was only universal?
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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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It was 1-B and became Low 1-C
But my point is that under the new system a lot of verses are going to get nerfed.
But my point is that under the new system a lot of verses are going to get nerfed.
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Like accelerate said the verse fits the non insignificant req.
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The fact the higher dimensions have objects which Curtana can cut isn't enough proof of "non-insignificant" size? Then can we just move to what will be the tier of the downgraded Magic Gods? I think 2B or 2A are the best options we have, L2C being a massive downplay, and what will happen with the downgraded powers like Accel's Vector Shield and Aleister's Blasting Rod they will be Space-Time skills now?
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Is there actual proof of infinite universes? We need a number for anything higher than Low 2-CXDragnoir said:
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Magic God-created Phases are shown to cover the entire universe, and that's for each individual one (i.e. the Black World). So there are evidently multiple universes, although the exact number is unknown. True Gremlin would be infinitely higher than the given baseline.
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Gremlim
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I still agree with click, accel n Malox. The verse does seem to fit the qualitative and non-insignificant size justification.
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Wasn't the whole point of the Hidden World that the Magic Gods were so immense a mere movement of their hand or leg, accidentally at that, would destroy the normal universe? Despite this, the Toaru world has no alternate world or anything like that.
Meaning there had to be some space somewhere somehow where the Magic Gods could exist and inhabit in without destroying the universe, therefore a space larger than the normal universe. This can only be the higher dimensions because, again, there is nothing like a parallel world that exists in To Aru, there's no other "space". Even phases like heaven and hell exist besides the normal universe but at a different frequency, yet the explanation of the Magic Gods would imply this is not a possibility for them.
The only reason they'd be able to reside in the world without destroying it would be Zombie's spell of dividing their power infinitely, but there's no reason to assume Zombie was around since the very first magic god started existing, so again, SOMEWHERE had to exist larger than the universe itself to hold them.
Meaning there had to be some space somewhere somehow where the Magic Gods could exist and inhabit in without destroying the universe, therefore a space larger than the normal universe. This can only be the higher dimensions because, again, there is nothing like a parallel world that exists in To Aru, there's no other "space". Even phases like heaven and hell exist besides the normal universe but at a different frequency, yet the explanation of the Magic Gods would imply this is not a possibility for them.
The only reason they'd be able to reside in the world without destroying it would be Zombie's spell of dividing their power infinitely, but there's no reason to assume Zombie was around since the very first magic god started existing, so again, SOMEWHERE had to exist larger than the universe itself to hold them.
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But I was not arguing that , I was saying that at least they should encompass the lower dimensions (so at least same size as the universe for the 4th and the 5th would encompass the 4th ,etc) and have to be physical , if u look above some people were saying "it's a sub space" or "they are small"Matthew Schroeder said:
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I don't know if I'm missing something, but doesn't Curtana's very nature already prove that higher dimensions in Toaru are infinitely large, and all-encompassing over the whole universe? The swords very nature or ability is to be able to cut through ANYTHING by severing all dimension, be they higher or lower. If this wasn't the case (that higher dimensions in Toaru are infinitely larger, and all-encompassing over the whole universe at least), then I imagine it would have been specified by the author, that Curtana is only able to cut through objects of a certain specified size, due to a limitation in dimensional size. The fact that the sword works, and can cut through anything by severing higher dimensions, I think, already proves that these higher dimensions have to be all-encompassing over the whole verse. Unless the sword would only be able to cut through, say a wall of 20 metres, but be unable to cut through one of 200 metres, due to dimensional size limitations, which isn't really the case. Here's some text from the novel the clearly points it out:
"'This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world."
(What...?)
Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.
If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.
Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their five senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.
"All Dimensions Severing Spell."
Carissa spun Curtana Original around with a snap of her wrist and a smile slowly spread across her face as the ruins of the world that were the cross-section objects spilled about.
"This is the first I've used this, but it's much easier to use than I expected. If it has a flaw, it's that it makes things too easy which takes some of the fun out of it."
Finally, Kamijou brought his brain out of its state of shock. Second Princess Carissa was the leader of the coup d'etat. He had had a proper conversation with her in Buckingham Palace and even laughed with her. He didn't want to get in a fist fight with her if he could help it, but it looked as if it would be difficult to end things with just a discussion. And if he screwed up, Index, who was unconscious in the carriage, would be in danger.
(...Dammit. I guess we'll have the discussion after we fight!!)
Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.
Kamijou glanced over at Acqua. Could he trust him? Whatever anyone said, it didn't change the fact that Acqua was a member of the Roman Catholic Church's God's Right Seat. But he had been fighting the Knights led by Knight Leader before.
"'This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world."
(What...?)
Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.
If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.
Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their five senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.
"All Dimensions Severing Spell."
Carissa spun Curtana Original around with a snap of her wrist and a smile slowly spread across her face as the ruins of the world that were the cross-section objects spilled about.
"This is the first I've used this, but it's much easier to use than I expected. If it has a flaw, it's that it makes things too easy which takes some of the fun out of it."
Finally, Kamijou brought his brain out of its state of shock. Second Princess Carissa was the leader of the coup d'etat. He had had a proper conversation with her in Buckingham Palace and even laughed with her. He didn't want to get in a fist fight with her if he could help it, but it looked as if it would be difficult to end things with just a discussion. And if he screwed up, Index, who was unconscious in the carriage, would be in danger.
(...Dammit. I guess we'll have the discussion after we fight!!)
Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.
Kamijou glanced over at Acqua. Could he trust him? Whatever anyone said, it didn't change the fact that Acqua was a member of the Roman Catholic Church's God's Right Seat. But he had been fighting the Knights led by Knight Leader before.
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Accel (heh) basically said what we've been saying. Along with Strong's evidence on how 3-D causality can't affect or see higher D actions. (to my understanding).
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I personally trust more the simple fact that Magic Gods being able to exist somewhere in the higher dimensions, higher than what Othinus can achieve, is proof enough they are larger than the universe. It is literally a requirement lest they destroy all as they explicitly do not wish to do.
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I don't believe the Hidden World has a relation to dimensions, but the relation that all 11-D dimensional space will be destroyed if they accidentally move a muscle is a big thing.
What Strong said before regarding how 3-D actions like foresight and causality, even Fate can't reach or detect 11-D actions proves that there IS a qualitive difference between dimensions higher and lower as well. Dimensions clearly have baring rather than simply being vague and there.
What Strong said before regarding how 3-D actions like foresight and causality, even Fate can't reach or detect 11-D actions proves that there IS a qualitive difference between dimensions higher and lower as well. Dimensions clearly have baring rather than simply being vague and there.
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I'm pretty sure that the Magic Gods being able to destroy the universe by stepping in it has nothing to do with dimensions.
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cool Low 2-C feat thoMatthew Schroeder said:
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Ye being able to destroy a universe by stepping in it is passive Low 2-C Destruction but it's still not tier 1
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They would destroy the world not just the universe, but yea that part isn't directly related to the dimensions argument above.
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Yeah those aren't really related to the argument tho.
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The whole point of the Magic Gods destroying it is that they are far too big to inhabit that space in the first place, hence needing to inhabit the hidden world that they made.Matthew Schroeder said:
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The Hidden World has infinite space, right? The Magic Gods have control over Phases, Dimensions, etc. We know the higher dimensions exists, are extra moviment axis, have matter inside them because Curtana cuts that to create the debris, and we also know a esper who can see the future can't see the future of 11D things. So, the True Magic Gods have all the things i just said, but infinite, because they have full control over dimensions, and why create an infinite 3D world when you can create an infinite 11D world? So, even if the True Gods are H1C in the new system, what will be Othinus' tier?
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yes but that has nothing to do with size of the dimension, their feats would follow after the size is determinated, maybe u can use the hidden world to have a sense of higher dimension but that's a bit special as again it would be linked to the original dimensions
for now the argument would follow after we found a common ground on the size of normal higher dimensions
ur are putting the cart before the horses, so first we clear up the dimensions with abilities or quote that directly interact with them,then we go over the tiers
for now the argument would follow after we found a common ground on the size of normal higher dimensions
ur are putting the cart before the horses, so first we clear up the dimensions with abilities or quote that directly interact with them,then we go over the tiers
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Also passively destroying the universe just by existing is something that can be said of event bill cipher
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There's a difference between passively destroying stuff because "powafur" and destroying it because the universe can't literally sustain you because of its size.
That by itself would imply the magic gods had to go somewhere bigger before Zombie's spell existed, and that somewhere had to be bigger.
That by itself would imply the magic gods had to go somewhere bigger before Zombie's spell existed, and that somewhere had to be bigger.
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Brief?
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Well there's no brief downgrade as of right now. No reason for it to be atm.
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Is there actually any definitive proof as to why the downgrade is being pushed, or is it just for the sake of it? The whole reasoning in the first place was that supposedly, the higher dimensions of toaru were not of a non-insignificant size, which we've all presented evidence to quite the contrary (Curtana's nature, the MG's using them to alter the whole world). So as of right now, is there any definitive reason as to why their downgrade is being considered, and any proof for said reason?Lapsad said:
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It's a verse check more or less but we've posted evidence and proof to keep it and which supports the tiering, yeah.
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the dimensions being non-insignificant doesn't matter if they're not explicitly higher infinities anyway IIRC
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It does since non-insignificant size is one of the requirements to get Higher D tiers. Its not always about higher infinitiesZephyrosOmega said:
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I really doubt Ultima would be that dumb to directly mention that as a requirement if it wasn't. Which it is.ZephyrosOmega said:
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"This rating can be reached by 5 and 6-dimensional constructs and spaces when they are either of an infinite (or otherwise non-insignificant) size or portrayed as qualitatively greater than lower-dimensional objects in their setting"ZephyrosOmega said:
We proved non-insignificant AND that there's qualitive differences between greater and lower as with the 3-D Casuality not being able to read 11-D.
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You mean High 1-C?
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"Otherwise non-insignificant" as in proven to be actually transcendent
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@Zach Size and transcendence are two different things.
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Transcendence is an entirely different ball game my dude. We're talking about size and qualitive differences, which, again, is irrelevant to higher infinity mumbo jumbo.
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By brief he means briefing, as in, summing up what needs to be done. Which would be to downgrade all Tier 1s into some level of tier 2. And it looks like it's happening.Lapsad said:
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