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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)

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To my memory Gears would get a huge nerf as the Upper Domain are only described as higher dimensional space that works on a different space-time axis and structure, yet is still a domain that has to exist inside the universe. I don't recall size ever being described on it but I've yet to fully finish Saga 3 and Gears has been at least 6 years since I've played it.

GL also does not have 'higher infinity' planes as I'm quite familiar with it, just an infinite multiverse within 11-D space. Dimensional size is never explicitedly stated. If I had to guess based on my understanding of the system after more diving, Gears may cap only in Tier 2 along with GL now but that's irrelevant to this discussion
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
People are arguing that since dimensions are used for instant transportation they are transcendent
But that was why Xeelee Sequence used to be High 1-C and it got downgraded

But to be fair if To Aru does get downgraded 2-A is minimum, Low 2-C is massive downplay
Click to expand...
if it was only teleportation u may be right but curtana existence make it so the upper dimensions need to be at least universe sized or the debris would not be created anywhere and the debris them self proof of the dimension physically existing
 
What does dimensions means in the context of the verse? If there's a 11D, it must exist a 7th, 8th and 9th, right? What's the the, let say, 9th dimension is in the verse? Cuz at the moment 1D it works as a simple subspace, like, go inside there's to cut distance in the universe (generally used to travel faster than light/teleport).
 
Antoniofer said:
What does dimensions means in the context of the verse? If there's a 11D, it must exist a 7th, 8th and 9th, right? What's the the, let say, 9th dimension is in the verse? Cuz at the moment 1D it works as a simple subspace, like, go inside there's to cut distance in the universe (generally used to travel faster than light/teleport).
Click to expand...
The dimensions work off M-theory so I assume whatever the dimensions descriptions are in that will apply for To Aru. Best to wait for Strong or someone else to explain it to you though, as dimensions are still a bit out of my pay grade. All dimensions do exist do up to 11-D as one can't perceive or interact with 4-D from 3-D, and so on and so forth the higher or lower you go.
 
So, inferior dimensions refer to stuff like space (this is obvious), time, probability, possibility and variables? Can someone use the 11D to move through those?
 
@Antoniofer Yea for example, we know that precog espers (Shaei) who can predict the future with a 100% success rate, can't view the scope and futures of higher dimensions because they can only access events in the 3D universe. So those who manipulate or move through higher dimensions can interfere or alter events that are 100% destined to happen.
 
Antoniofer said:
So, inferior dimensions refer to stuff like space (this is obvious), time, probability, possibility and variables? Can someone use the 11D to move through those?
Click to expand...
The 10 non-time dimensions are all spatial as far as I am aware. I.e. there exist actual higher dimensional objects in them and people can in principle travel through them. There isn't stuff like alternate timelines in them or anything.
 
Hmmm

Othinus 2-A (Can manipulate all phases of which there are an infinite amount equal to the main universe)

True magic gods Low 1-C (even at an infiniteth of their power they are vastly superior to Othinus. Can destroy the hidden world which transcends the multiverse)

If it DOES get downgraded, I'm still on the fence as to if it should be, this is what they'd become

Low 2-C is massive downplay
 
So now that I am free...

So we know they refer to dimensions as 'Higher dimensions'. We can't perceive them either because they're infinitely large, infinitely small, or there is just dimensional restrictions such as that we can't percieve 4-D objects coming out of the crosssection so they become 3-D.

Them being called "higher dimensions' isn't necessarily evidence that they are large enough to qualify for any tier, though, so I don't know what you are trying to get across with that.

So we know that Magic Gods are able to manipulate all of dimensional space. Dimensional Space is as large as it needs to be in relation the the 'size', as Touma could clearly still exist in the Black World despite it being of infinite size. If 11-D space really did have a limit to have much it could cover such as the Universe, Touma could just keep running then stop existing, which would make no sense at all.

How exactly does this relate to the higher dimensions described by the verse, though? Touma himself is a 3-dimensional being, and by definition isn't extended unto any of the additional dimensions, as he doesn't really have any of them in the first place; his measurements in them are just 0, so he wouldn't really cease to be if he walked in the Black World for long enough, since the axes of 3-dimensional space are the only ones he encompasses and actually needs in order to... Well, exist.

Even then, as DontTalk explained it in an earlier post, additional dimensions are already orthogonal to lower-dimensional spaces regardless of how large they actually are. They always exist "besides you" by their nature as constants of physical space, so to speak.

True Magic Gods created and lived in a hidden Layer of the Phases, quite literally the Hidden World, a place with an infinite size that ignores the concept of distance, yet should obviously still house 11-D Space

From what the excerpts that you posted say, the Hidden World is more like a place where Space and Time have no meaning, and so distance and whatnot are wonky and don't exist as fixed constants. They even say that one can be "a hair's breadth and an infinite distance away" simultaneously, so I don't really see why you would use it as evidence that To Aru's higher dimensions are large / infinitely big.

Besides, from what I read in LazyHunter's explanation blog, isn't the Hidden World's location actually described by coordinates comprised of "nonexistent numbers"? If that is to be taken literally, then it wouldn't even exist within the normal dimensions of the setting, as coordinates in spatial axes are always given by regular numbers, such as Real / Complex Numbers and what have you.

Aleister Manipulates dimensional space inside his own building as well to make it stretch infinitely upwards as well as ignore Euclidean geometry and ignore 3 dimensional space, but that was already pointed out so I won't post that.

That's just him showcasing Reality Warping / Spatial Manipulation, and again, not really evidence pointing to anything significant, tiering-wise.
 
The dimensions are at least universe sized or curtana would not work

u can see don't talk and lazy hunter mostly base the dimension description on curtana not magic gods powers
 
it has already been linked, what we know in a tldr:

there are at least 11 dimension, u can interact with those dimension (with related abilities obviously) form any place in the universe so they would at least encompass it, they can't be of non-insignificant size or Curtana cutting them would snap them in half or worse completely destroying them, then there are the debris which are physical manifestation of the higher dimensional object cut in a lower dimension, higher dimension contains information that can interfere with prediction and calculation only based on 3 dimensions even fate bound events
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The existence of 11 dimensions in itself isn't proof of Tier 1. I'm sorry, but I till agree with Ultima.
And no, Curtana wouldn't destroy a spatial dimension by cutting it, you can't literally cut a direction, that's not how it works.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure it can. Curtana takes priority over all dimensions and cuts them all. Slicing effect of the Curtana also could cut through Accelerator's field despite there being a direction to the effect along with Anti-Magic capabilities. Why would Curtana not cut through a spatial dimension when its main attribute is literally cutting through Phases and whatever Dimensions layer the world?
 
i mean the space would need to be non-insignificant, if u assume the higher dimension is too small then it could be cut up, example take a cube and assume it as being our whole 3 dimensional space, then take a 2 dimensional object like a piece of paper, if the paper could cut the material, u could cut the 3 dimensional object by simply moving the piece of paper in 1 direction (x,y or z), that what i mean as non insignificant size
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The existence of 11 dimensions in itself isn't proof of Tier 1. I'm sorry, but I till agree with Ultima.

And no, Curtana wouldn't destroy a spatial dimension by cutting it, you can't literally cut a direction, that's not how it works.
Click to expand...
Curtana does not cut directions, it cuts "higher D matter", because the debris the spell creates is obviously matter, and since the debris can be up to 100 meters long, the 4th dimension (not time) should also be that large.
 
I think that at least 100 meter apparently doesn't qualify as "non-insiginificant" was said in the 7th or so comment.

Whether or not that qualifies was basically my entire question regarding this.


If the downgrades happen we should probably make a follow up thread to talk about our multiverse level standards.
 
100 meters just corresponds to debris size and that correlates to how wide Curtana's swing is not how large the dimension actually is

From above "We don't, in most cases, and if a Universe is just straight up said to be higher-dimensional, then it wouldn't make sense to assume its size along the additional axis is insignificant, so we just give it a higher tier."

We have shown above that 'The World' is higher dimensional so the additional axises can't be insignificant. After all MG's control all of the higher Ds which are needed to control the entirety of the world and are qualitatively impercievable/unteractable from lower D's from debris and from the fact 3-D laws of causality and fate can be overcome by manipulating a higher dimensions.
 
I don't see why a universe being higher dimensional would indicate the size of the extra dimensions being non-insignificant. Our real life universe is higher dimensional in physics theories that postulate insignificant extra dimensions (which are the common ones amongst those that postulate extra dimensions), so the only actual reference case doesn't support that assumption.


The latter two things really don't mean regarding the topic when viewed in proper context. Miyama Shaei's power is theorized to be based on a 3D calculation framework and hence can't predict events that involve influence form 11D space. (Chapter 74 for reference)

And that one can't view higher dimensional objects is simply completly natural. Humans only have 3D senses and only take 3D actions after all.
 
Thecnically speaking there is no limit to the size of the debris as the blade can be powered up to be longer but u would need to go full England colonialism and conquer the universe so it's all UK territory
 
@DT like above, it's an assumption made because the only way dimensional size is denoted/to pinpoint cosmic scale in most fiction/higher up verses is the term 'infinite' regarding dimension sizes or Universe sizes. So if the world is shown to be higher dimensional we can assume additional axises are not insignificant in size which can be another requirement.

It does he maps out future with 100% accuracy using 3D calcs, meaning 4D+ interference breaks the law of causality and they can change that destined outcome. So if he used 4D calcs to map the future u would need 5D Manipulation and so on.
 
@Matt We aren't proving infinity since it's almost nigh impossible to prove that in most fictions. We're proving non-insignificant size so that argument is irrelevant.
 
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