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Axis of Space =/= plane of higher infinity; it just means the distance is nonlinear. And while dimensional tiering isn't my specialty, I don't think it's that complicated. In fact, it's more definitive than our old one.
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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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What part is confusing you? I can explain whatever that is.Accelerate420 said:
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What dimensional theory is the tiering based on anymore?Ultima Reality said:
"This rating can be reached by 5 and 6-dimensional constructs and spaces when they are either of an infinite (or otherwise non-insignificant) size or portrayed as qualitatively greater than lower-dimensional objects in their setting, or alternatively, one can also qualify for its lower end by creating and/or destroying an uncountably infinite number of universes, or more generally, showcasing uncountably infinite power/size when compared to 4-D beings or objects."
From what I've researched, M-Theory's dimensions are infinitely smaller or larger, and that's still an infinity of 11-D's, which Index falls under. So I'm not understanding what the new system is. How do you determine something 'non-insignificant size' or large in terms of dimensions?
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I don't recall it being based on any specific theory but based on fundamentals mathematics between Ultima and DonTalk have said. Though, Ultima also got most of the info from Aeyu as well.
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It doesn't really base itself on any particular theory anymore, and mostly just uses large dimensional spaces as a reference for the size of stuff pertaining to each tier. By "large" I mean higher-dimensional spaces (or dimensions themselves) that at the very least encompass or denote an area of space of a cosmic / astronomical scale, like entire Universes for example, or whatever.
I think a good analogy for that is how we don't really rate any 3-dimensional being at 3-A / High 3-A simply for being 3-dimensional, as we shouldn't assume they automatically have the power to affect an entire 3-dimensional space based solely on that. The same thing applies to higher-dimensional beings: we don't assume they have the power to affect the entirety of the space in which they reside unless they have feats showing they can.
I think a good analogy for that is how we don't really rate any 3-dimensional being at 3-A / High 3-A simply for being 3-dimensional, as we shouldn't assume they automatically have the power to affect an entire 3-dimensional space based solely on that. The same thing applies to higher-dimensional beings: we don't assume they have the power to affect the entirety of the space in which they reside unless they have feats showing they can.
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How do you determine those factors in a setting if the only uses to denote that is just the term 'infinite' regarding dimension sizes or Universe sizes? That sounds like it doesn't really do much use for many actual verses high up in ther tiering system if I'm interpreting that correctly? How can you accurately pin-point a cosmic scale?
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We don't, in most cases, and if a Universe is just straight up said to be higher-dimensional, then it wouldn't make sense to assume its size along the additional axis is insignificant, so we just give it a higher tier.
It just means that in vague cases where higher dimensions are just mentioned once or twice and their relationship to the physical world is never clearly defined, those things won't be tiered due to lack of further context. And from what I've seen, this is the case with To Aru.
It just means that in vague cases where higher dimensions are just mentioned once or twice and their relationship to the physical world is never clearly defined, those things won't be tiered due to lack of further context. And from what I've seen, this is the case with To Aru.
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@Ultima Well the universe is higher-dimensional as a MG has to manipulate all dimensions to alter 'The World'. Dimensions do come up in more cases than esper teleportation ability. Like higher dimensions being outside 3D causality which is why precognition doesn't factor higher D intervention. Dimensions are described in relation to the universe a little more with Curtana quotes.
"Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section." With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou. It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil. "Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this." The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder. She was not attacking. Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet. "This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world." (What…?) Kamijou was completely dumbfounded. If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two. Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.
"All Dimensions Severing Spell." Carissa spun Curtana Original around with a snap of her wrist and a smile slowly spread across her face as the ruins of the world that were the cross section objects spilled about. [...] Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.
A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two.
If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash. Yes, all dimensions. Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase… for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.
"Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section." With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou. It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil. "Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this." The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder. She was not attacking. Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet. "This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world." (What…?) Kamijou was completely dumbfounded. If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two. Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses. Second Princess Carissa was using a power on that level.
"All Dimensions Severing Spell." Carissa spun Curtana Original around with a snap of her wrist and a smile slowly spread across her face as the ruins of the world that were the cross section objects spilled about. [...] Carissa held up her sword that could slice through not just a manmade nuclear shelter but the earth and the universe itself.
A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two.
If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash. Yes, all dimensions. Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase… for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.
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That whole exchange still seems really vague and doesn't really tell us much about the relation between those dimensions and the physical world, like, at all. Sure, it shows they exist, but doesn't really give much context aside from that.
Besides, you all can correct me if I am wrong, but is this even applicable to the physical setting of the verse? I understand it has actual effects on reality (such as the debris), but the text itself states that those higher dimensions exist more as concepts than anything, and later says that Curtana Original can just cut any higher or lower dimension that can be represented by a whole number, and as far as I know To Aru has just 11 dimensions, so I'm getting the vibes that the ability functions more like a weird form of Mathematics Manipulation than anything else.
Besides, you all can correct me if I am wrong, but is this even applicable to the physical setting of the verse? I understand it has actual effects on reality (such as the debris), but the text itself states that those higher dimensions exist more as concepts than anything, and later says that Curtana Original can just cut any higher or lower dimension that can be represented by a whole number, and as far as I know To Aru has just 11 dimensions, so I'm getting the vibes that the ability functions more like a weird form of Mathematics Manipulation than anything else.
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The text says that theres the theory; the concept of the dimensions. They exist and the idea also exists, it's just that, technically, they should just be theories.
And To Aru has at least 11 dimensions. It's not just 11, but at least 11.
And To Aru has at least 11 dimensions. It's not just 11, but at least 11.
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Curtana cuts all dimensions, higher and lower, but humans can only perceive the 3-D debris/cross-section produced by Curtana slicing the 4th dimension. The blade is still producing 1-D debris from cutting the 2nd dimension, 2-D debris from cutting the 3th dimension, 4-D debris from cutting the 5th dimension, 5-D debris from cutting the 6th, etc...
So the dimensions exist, the concept line I think is more that higher dimensions are not something a human is going to literally see, they aren't a physical object yet a 3-D object like Curtana can cut them. Like, you can't actually see space, you see things occupying said space, because space is a concept. Curtana is just advanced spatial slicing.
So the dimensions exist, the concept line I think is more that higher dimensions are not something a human is going to literally see, they aren't a physical object yet a 3-D object like Curtana can cut them. Like, you can't actually see space, you see things occupying said space, because space is a concept. Curtana is just advanced spatial slicing.
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@Ultima The text says they flat out exist, it's saying they are seen as a concept in theoretical science and the fact a normal human can't see or interact with them. Gods control them to change reality, esper use them to move etc, the concept is incorporated in tech like the windowless building which ignores Euclidean geometry etc... Curtana's ability comes from and is drawn from an archangel, an angel not just being a another supernatural being in To Aru, but representing the fundamental elements and systems that make up the world. Omnidimensional slicing isn't mathematics manipulation the slicing effect is stated to reach all dimensions and while it's doing that, the severing pierces phases and can even interact and kill beings lurking if it hits them while it reaches the lower and upper spaces. Whole number thing is just saying it cuts existing countable dimensions like said above at least 11.
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Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.
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Btw, Teleportation-type espers are just going directly to the 11th dimension and moving in that axis, thus bypassing the limitations of 3-D movement and moving from one point in the 3 dimensions to another instantly
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Well to add these quotes into the thread regarding dimension and the size of it.
Carissa explaining dimensions:
"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world."
So we know they refer to dimensions as 'Higher dimensions'. We can't perceive them either because they're infinitely large, infinitely small, or there is just dimensional restrictions such as that we can't percieve 4-D objects coming out of the crosssection so they become 3-D.
Othinus created the Black World, an Infinite Universe/Phase by manipulating all of 11-D Space then applying Phase layers ontop of that.
"This world which you can freely alter is like creating a infinite landscape by setting up
two mirrors to face each other. Saying you have the ability to freely walk through that
landscape sounds like something from a dream, but if you took a stroll using that ability
and turned back, your face would pale. After all, the exact same world would continue
infinitely."
So we know that Magic Gods are able to manipulate all of dimensional space. Dimensional Space is as large as it needs to be in relation the the 'size', as Touma could clearly still exist in the Black World despite it being of infinite size. If 11-D space really did have a limit to have much it could cover such as the Universe, Touma could just keep running then stop existing, which would make no sense at all.
True Magic Gods created and lived in a hidden Layer of the Phases, quite literally the Hidden World, a place with an infinite size that ignores the concept of distance, yet should obviously still house 11-D Space:
"The concepts of distance and time don't matter here, remember? And I can't leave
regardless. Even if I did, I'd just end up gathering unwanted attention on a global scale
like Othinus. I was a hair's breadth and an infinite distance away."
"Old man, did you start forgetting things once you became a mummy? The zombie girl,
the chimera, and everyone are here. It's just in destiny's hands whether we run across
each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆"
11-D space would still need to encompass all of that space regardless of the size, yes?
Aleister Manipulates dimensional space inside his own building as well to make it stretch infinitely upwards as well as ignore Euclidean geometry and ignore 3 dimensional space, but that was already pointed out so I won't post that.
In the end we have proof that regardless of how big the dimensions could be, we know that no matter how big a world is created such as an infinite black world of an infinite Hidden World, 11-D will still apply to these places so size is largely, for the most part, irrelevant in determining it. Like you said, we can't accurately pin point Higher Dimensional size on a cosmic scale, but we have enough information to assume that it's irrelevant in this situation as 11-D space in To Aru will always encompass however big the spaces below it are. And since Phases are filters on the Universe, 11-D's would affect those layering all of those filters that are stacked ontop of the world infinitely like a pancake.
TL;DR: I think they should still keep their High 1-C rating because of these statements, as it's clear that 11-D space is as infinitely large as it needs to be.
To quote Ultima: "It just means that in vague cases where higher dimensions are just mentioned once or twice and their relationship to the physical world is never clearly defined, those things won't be tiered due to lack of further context."
We know their relation to the physical world now, and it's, to simplify it "Infinitely Large". Magic Gods manipulate 11-D space to recreate the universe into how they see fit, so they can create infinite landscapes or the infinite hidden world.
Therefor, I'd say this constitues as the dimensions in To Aru applying for High 1-C.
Carissa explaining dimensions:
"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world."
So we know they refer to dimensions as 'Higher dimensions'. We can't perceive them either because they're infinitely large, infinitely small, or there is just dimensional restrictions such as that we can't percieve 4-D objects coming out of the crosssection so they become 3-D.
Othinus created the Black World, an Infinite Universe/Phase by manipulating all of 11-D Space then applying Phase layers ontop of that.
"This world which you can freely alter is like creating a infinite landscape by setting up
two mirrors to face each other. Saying you have the ability to freely walk through that
landscape sounds like something from a dream, but if you took a stroll using that ability
and turned back, your face would pale. After all, the exact same world would continue
infinitely."
So we know that Magic Gods are able to manipulate all of dimensional space. Dimensional Space is as large as it needs to be in relation the the 'size', as Touma could clearly still exist in the Black World despite it being of infinite size. If 11-D space really did have a limit to have much it could cover such as the Universe, Touma could just keep running then stop existing, which would make no sense at all.
True Magic Gods created and lived in a hidden Layer of the Phases, quite literally the Hidden World, a place with an infinite size that ignores the concept of distance, yet should obviously still house 11-D Space:
"The concepts of distance and time don't matter here, remember? And I can't leave
regardless. Even if I did, I'd just end up gathering unwanted attention on a global scale
like Othinus. I was a hair's breadth and an infinite distance away."
"Old man, did you start forgetting things once you became a mummy? The zombie girl,
the chimera, and everyone are here. It's just in destiny's hands whether we run across
each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆"
11-D space would still need to encompass all of that space regardless of the size, yes?
Aleister Manipulates dimensional space inside his own building as well to make it stretch infinitely upwards as well as ignore Euclidean geometry and ignore 3 dimensional space, but that was already pointed out so I won't post that.
In the end we have proof that regardless of how big the dimensions could be, we know that no matter how big a world is created such as an infinite black world of an infinite Hidden World, 11-D will still apply to these places so size is largely, for the most part, irrelevant in determining it. Like you said, we can't accurately pin point Higher Dimensional size on a cosmic scale, but we have enough information to assume that it's irrelevant in this situation as 11-D space in To Aru will always encompass however big the spaces below it are. And since Phases are filters on the Universe, 11-D's would affect those layering all of those filters that are stacked ontop of the world infinitely like a pancake.
TL;DR: I think they should still keep their High 1-C rating because of these statements, as it's clear that 11-D space is as infinitely large as it needs to be.
To quote Ultima: "It just means that in vague cases where higher dimensions are just mentioned once or twice and their relationship to the physical world is never clearly defined, those things won't be tiered due to lack of further context."
We know their relation to the physical world now, and it's, to simplify it "Infinitely Large". Magic Gods manipulate 11-D space to recreate the universe into how they see fit, so they can create infinite landscapes or the infinite hidden world.
Therefor, I'd say this constitues as the dimensions in To Aru applying for High 1-C.
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I still agree with Ultima. I'm not convinced on the ToAru interpretations. Seems like a lot of speculation and legwork to justify something.
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So, direct quotes from the novel are speculation now?
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I agree with keeping it, if the args are too hard for some to follow the blog could just be updated.
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I'm also with Matt and Ultima.
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Considering that they don't say anything about infinitely larger higher dimensions...Oblivion Of The Endless said:
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But they do? Thats what Accelerate420 posted minutes ago
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I mean, the hidden world ignores the concept of distent and space and on this wiki we still count it as as part of the 11-D Toaru world layer, the phases the magic gods control covers the upperl layer of the world and we already agreed that the magic gods has full control over those 11-D layers.
Some people want everything literlly spelled out for them
Some people want everything literlly spelled out for them
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Just reading thru, looks like the former part of Ultima's recent size post has been proven by others regarding the setting being higher dimensional by MG's using them to manipulate every aspect of The World, so the additional axis can't be insignificant. The Curtana quotes just further emphasizing the relationship between high/low and that they do indeed exist.
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The bias is pretty notable, lel
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But the world having more than 3 or 4 dimensions doesn't necessarily warrants High 1-C.
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It literally says that the world has at least 11, which is High 1-C afaik.
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It's not. We don't use dimensions anymore. Their existence doesn't entitle your setting to Tier 1. It was the whole point of the revisions, that Dimensional Tiering is quite bad.SchroKatze said:
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But they also say that those dimensions are infinite in size
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Most every big tier universe is going through changes, do not imply a bias. No Game No Life is being downgraded, for example. Spawn used to be 1-B due to a random statement and it's now barely 2-A to High 2-A. Others will be downgraded too.Malox1696 said:
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Matt is correct. It's not quite like Gurren Lagaan or Xenogears/Xenosaga that legit describes characters existing and or having power over those planes of higher infinities. It's more on point with Image Comics or His Dark Materials examples. TTGL uses the Brane Cosmology term for dimensions and that Anti-Spiral transcends above that. And for Xenosaga, it's stated that the Upper Domain exists on multiple planes of higher infinity above the 4th Dimension aka Time. And that fact that Lower Domain alone was stated to have an infinite number of timelines the Imaginary Numbers domain which was said to contain "All abstract concepts."
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Huh Gurren Lag has like 1-2 dimensional statements none about size iirc? Anyway's like said above MG's control all of the higher Ds which are indeed described as higher spaces as they are all needed to control the entirety of the world without exception thus fitting noninsignifigant req and are qualitatively impercievable/unteractable from lower realms as described by severing spell.
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People are arguing that since dimensions are used for instant transportation they are transcendent
But that was why Xeelee Sequence used to be High 1-C and it got downgraded
But to be fair if To Aru does get downgraded 2-A is minimum, Low 2-C is massive downplay
But that was why Xeelee Sequence used to be High 1-C and it got downgraded
But to be fair if To Aru does get downgraded 2-A is minimum, Low 2-C is massive downplay
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The dimensional movement is only one of the thing.ls involving dimensional space. Magic Gods can freely warp higher dimensions by existing. It's also required to have full control over higher dimensions to be able to control and affect the world as a whole, as mentioned several times already.
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Gurren Lagann thus justify it's dimensions by explicitely talking about alternate universes and brane mechanics.
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