To Aru Majutsu no Index: Fixing Issues with Accelerator

[XDragnoir]

TK barrier is one possible uses of TK power, and I only mentioned it as a TK power to separate with other non-TK forcefield users. TK barriers essentially preventing things from harming its user from TK ability to affect objects with just a thought, unlike a conventional barrier.

You explained this in a strange so way so I am kinda confused rn, but I will give two interpretations I got from this, if both are wrong please correct me:

1 - You're talking about TK barriers that block physical attacks such as bullets and punches, not really that different from any other kind of barrier as it's still an energy that surrounds its user to tank attack.

2 - You're talking about TK barrier that protect the user from being affected by other TK users, which isn't durability but it's rather a resistance to TK.

Neither cases apply to Accel's Vector Shield, so whatever, again, I really don't care about other verses and characters when Toaru has its own examples of defensive hax that isn't listed in the durability sections, as well as offensive hax that isn't listed, because guess what, it's hax.

Gabriel doesn't even have TK on its p&a, let alone forcefield creation.

I don't want to sound rude but have you ever read/watched Toaru?

First, TK not being in his profile is just another case of outdated profiles, second, his 4B rating comes from his TK that works against celestial bodies (mainly stars).

nah

Fair enough, I recalled the reason had to do with his ability to interact with 11D vectors (aka teleport espers).

Regardless of that, LS and Durability are different things, TK and Accel's powers are different things and I've yet to see a profile with TK in their durability (not like that would change anything, the point here is that Hax does not go into the durability section, I don't care at all about how other profiles from other verses do their thing).

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

Neither cases apply to Accel's Vector Shield, so whatever, again, I really don't care about other verses and characters when Toaru has its own examples of defensive hax that isn't listed in the durability sections, as well as offensive hax that isn't listed, because guess what, it's hax.

Depends on the hax. Something like World Rejecter or Imagine Breaker weren't tied to AP nor they have AP or durability threshold. Invulnerability, as an example, is a defensive hax that doesn't have durability threshold and afaik you don't list a character's invulnerability as their durability.

Accelerator however, we do know the threshold of what he is capable or has shown with his Vector Control and I think this should be reflected either by having it on his durability (High 1-C with Vector Shield) or have it on his p&a (11D; Can passively redirect virtually any vector-based attack back at his opponent).

TK that works against celestial bodies (mainly stars).

If you ask me, I kinda doubt Gabriel can get TK just for this considering characters like Byakuren and Moon Knight are able to move celestial bodies like planets and stars in the same manners as Gabriel does, with the latter character have it listed as Spatial Manipulation with 4-A AP rating.
Maybe there should be a sub-category of power specifically for something like this, like the ability to manipulate celestial bodies in the sky like planets and stars, but this this is going off topic now

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

If you ask me, I kinda doubt Gabriel can get TK just for this considering characters like Byakuren and Moon Knight are able to move celestial bodies like planets and stars in the same manners as Gabriel does, with the latter character have it listed as Spatial Manipulation with 4-A AP rating.
Maybe there should be a sub-category of power specifically for something like this, like the ability to manipulate celestial bodies in the sky like planets and stars, but this this is going off topic now

Leave this to me. Already preping a new ToAru CRT for lifting strength since we really need that straight out, but I can include this as a minor side-thingy.

 

[Churronzon]

Accelerator however, we do know the threshold of what he is capable or has shown with his Vector Control and I think this should be reflected either by having it on his durability (High 1-C with Vector Shield) or have it on his p&a (11D; Can passively redirect virtually any vector-based attack back at his opponent).

Qawsedf234 was suggesting to list it in the P&A.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What? Misaka's reality warping gives her control over electrons, the control part comes from RW so it is RW, Accel's RW straight up affects the direction something is moving to, it doesn't have a medium like Mikoto with the electrons, the RW is applied directly onto his target by the Vector Shield. This is basic Toaru knowledge, you think the Vector Shield physically blocks the attacks and then sends them back or something like that? We already give all espers things like Probability hax and Subjective Reality.

Accelerator's ability controls vectors directly, not quite just direction. And vectors also have a magnitude to them. Hence he, for example, can't just produce Tier 1 attacks, since he can't just create a vector with such a high output by amplifying lesser vectors, the way he does for his regular AP tiers.
That makes it less clear cut than you think it is.
But as said, it's for the most part a pointless debate as you can not justify that it works on anything above the tier it currently has via feats regardless of how you interpret it.

A passive forcefield actually blocks something just like any physical body would, that's why it has durability, the Vector Shield doesn't work like that.

We removed H1C from Touma for the exact reason, it's not durability, it's hax, we won't be having this discussion again as the conclusion with Touma and Kamisato was already in favor of removing it from their profiles. Also, if you really want to, I can search for other examples of smurf hax protections that don't go in the durability section, but since Toaru already has its own examples I don't think it's even worth the effort.

It doesn't block things different from shields in a way that matters.
And contrary to Touma, who has that for like a right hand, I find full body passive protection that shields him form tier 1 attacks indeed more durability-like and vastly more misleading to not have a note on how regular stuff can't kill him.

"Environmental Destruction describes a character's capability to damage and destroy an area around themselves, but not necessarily their capacity to realistically harm their opponent"

Straight from the ED page, Holistic Powers fit it perfectly, they can destroy galaxies with their power but can't apply this AP to direct attacks, so no it doesn't scales to PW's regular AP and whatever causes the galaxy to shake (the wings themselves, Clonoth, whatever it is) doesn't change absolutely anything.

Also, the profile doesn't say adding the tree shook the galaxy?

The reason I brought up the adding the tree shaking the galaxy thing was that I thought that to be just about the only perspective by which this makes sense.

Yes, holistic phenomena use large phenomena with no practical purpose to create small ones with practical purpose. However, the large one still needs to be caused.
The power to produce the large one doesn't come from nothing. It's still energy Accelerator needs to actually produce.
And for Accelerator, of all people, we can really be 100% sure that he can focus an energy he produces. That's pretty much his main ability.
There is no way Accelerator can radiate galaxy shacking energy from himself and not focus it into an attack if he wants to.
So it, indeed, does not meet the condition of being unable to realistically harm an opponent through it.

I am still of the opinion that reflection just doesn't fit in the durability section. Couldn't we just put the "limit" of Accelerator's reflection in a note at the bottom of Accel's profile or smth as a compromise?

That's just about the most roundabout way to do it, putting it where people are unlikely to read it, but I guess I can compromise on it.

Okay, then. We can leave it to another CRT, ig.

I mean... Can Accelerator even do it again? The entire galaxy shake happened because he implanted the Clonth tree into reality, ya? So... can he even do it again? Because the only way for Accelerator to achieve the same effect again is either uprooting the tree (and negating its effect on Toaru's comsology) and implanting it again into the world or just making a new tree and implanting that into reality in hopes of achieving the same effect. To be fair, we only seen the PW twice, so we can't be sure that he "can't" do it twice, but still... The galaxy shake requires certain elements that Accelerator can't pull out by himself, so ED fits the bill, imo.

As Dragnoir just said to me: I don't think implanting the tree is the cause of the shacking. The way I understand it, shacking and implanting the tree were named as separate conditions for the astral projection. Not tree causes shacking causes astral projection.

On a side note; doesn't Accelerator also only on-screen use of the force of the galaxy shake was forcibly astral project a person's soul, so wouldn't the astral projection take precedence here? ... Will also admit I am hesitant to list the galaxy shake as pure AP since it opens the door of Coronzon's dura scaling to it, which is a bag of worms that I want to ignore.

I don't see why you think Coronzon would scale to it, given that platinum wing accel didn't physically attack her.

I don't see why the shacking would exclusively be bound to astral projection. Especially for Accelerator, whose main ability is to take forces around him and redirect them into attacks. If he radiates galaxy shacking energy I see absolutely no way he would be incapable of using his vector manipulation to manipulate this energy for his use.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

Especially for Accelerator, whose main ability is to take forces around him and redirect them into attacks. If he radiates galaxy shacking energy I see absolutely no way he would be incapable of using his vector manipulation to manipulate this energy for his use.

Right, just like how Accelerator threw a concrete with H6A amount of energy from slowing down the earth, theoretically he should be able to do the same but replace slowing earth with shaking galaxy.

But this raises a question from me, can Accel use it to amp his own body? Kinda like how he used his vector control to amp himself while fighting characters like Gabriel and Nephthys before.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Honestly speaking, I think Accelerator's general lack of on-screen feats since NT22R is really screwing him over right now, ngl.

In regards to the tree... Personally, I am of the opinion of the shaking feat being a "one-time" thing that Accelerator could only do due to the conditions at the time with Coronzon due to the tree and I don't think he can do it "again". But I will admit that Kamachi has made it somewhat "open-ended" if this is the case or not but we are probably not going to get a clear answer anytime soon since we hadn't an actual threat with feats to back 'em up since Coronzon and only had "threats" built with hype and claims of great power but not actually showing it like Othinus or Coronzon in GT upto now while Accelerator sits on his butt in a cell-thanks for that Kamachi.

In regards to Coronzon... Well, if the only person that'd ever faced that galaxy shaking force wasn't harmed in the slightest and only had their soul projected outwards, then... would it even count as an attack in this case? IDK.

In regards to Vector Manip... If it isn't good to list it at the bottom of the profile; how about mention that it can reflect 11-D shit in the P&A section instead? I know some profiles nowadays lists layers and dimensions and whatnot in their P&A, so we can do it with Accel's Vector Manip + it would be easily visible when one is scrolling Accel's profile, I think. IDK, just a suggestion.

 

[XDragnoir]

Accelerator's ability controls vectors directly, not quite just direction. And vectors also have a magnitude to them. Hence he, for example, can't just produce Tier 1 attacks, since he can't just create a vector with such a high output by amplifying lesser vectors, the way he does for his regular AP tiers.
That makes it less clear cut than you think it is.
But as said, it's for the most part a pointless debate as you can not justify that it works on anything above the tier it currently has via feats regardless of how you interpret it.

Wait what? What are you even arguing we should do with his Reflection at this point? No one is arguing it can reflect things above his current, where did you get that from?

We also aren't arguing he can output T1 AP, we never tried to, why did you bring this up?

Whatever you're trying to say here has nothing to do with the overall argument (it's hax, not durability) or with that particular section (his reflection is an application of his RW/Probability hax).

It doesn't block things different from shields in a way that matters.
And contrary to Touma, who has that for like a right hand, I find full body passive protection that shields him form tier 1 attacks indeed more durability-like and vastly more misleading to not have a note on how regular stuff can't kill him.

Bro, what kind of shield are you talking about here?

Last time I read an explanation on shields, they didn't combine Probability hax with subjective reality to change the vectors of something.

You can add a note, either in the bottom of the page or similar to what we do with Regen and Immortality as you pointed some posts ago, but it doesn't deserve an entire Dura rating and area of effect has nothing to do with this, it being limited to Touma's hand wasn't even brought up to remove it from his profile IIRC.

The reason I brought up the adding the tree shaking the galaxy thing was that I thought that to be just about the only perspective by which this makes sense.

I don't get exactly what you're saying here, how that's the only perspective if adding the tree and shaking the galaxy are explicitly not the same thing in the quote where it happens?

Yes, holistic phenomena use large phenomena with no practical purpose to create small ones with practical purpose. However, the large one still needs to be caused.
The power to produce the large one doesn't come from nothing. It's still energy Accelerator needs to actually produce.

Okay? No one is saying Accel doesn't produce said energy, that has nothing to do with it being ED or not so no idea why you're talking about this.

And for Accelerator, of all people, we can really be 100% sure that he can focus an energy he produces. That's pretty much his main ability.
There is no way Accelerator can radiate galaxy shacking energy from himself and not focus it into an attack if he wants to.
So it, indeed, does not meet the condition of being unable to realistically harm an opponent through it.

Oh, that's interesting, because the quote where Accel shakes the galaxy adds right afterwards that he's applying a physical blow to Coronzon, would you say Coronzon has 4B durability?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Honestly speaking, I think Accelerator's general lack of on-screen feats since NT22R is really screwing him over right now, ngl.

In regards to the tree... Personally, I am of the opinion of the shaking feat being a "one-time" thing that Accelerator could only do due to the conditions at the time with Coronzon due to the tree and I don't think he can do it "again". But I will admit that Kamachi has made it somewhat "open-ended" if this is the case or not but we are probably not going to get a clear answer anytime soon since we hadn't an actual threat with feats to back 'em up since Coronzon and only had "threats" built with hype and claims of great power but not actually showing it like Othinus or Coronzon in GT upto now while Accelerator sits on his butt in a cell-thanks for that Kamachi.

In regards to Coronzon... Well, if the only person that'd ever faced that galaxy shaking force wasn't harmed in the slightest and only had their soul projected outwards, then... would it even count as an attack in this case? IDK.

Coronzon didn't really face it. She faced the astral projection that was a holistic result of it, i.e. a much smaller phenomenon than the shacking.

In regards to Vector Manip... If it isn't good to list it at the bottom of the profile; how about mention that it can reflect 11-D shit in the P&A section instead? I know some profiles nowadays lists layers and dimensions and whatnot in their P&A, so we can do it with Accel's Vector Manip + it would be easily visible when one is scrolling Accel's profile, I think. IDK, just a suggestion.

Well, I suppose we could list it in P&A.

Wait what? What are you even arguing we should do with his Reflection at this point? No one is arguing it can reflect things above his current, where did you get that from?

We also aren't arguing he can output T1 AP, we never tried to, why did you bring this up?

Whatever you're trying to say here has nothing to do with the overall argument (it's hax, not durability) or with that particular section (his reflection is an application of his RW/Probability hax).

My point is that just as a forcefield it's reasonable to assume had has some potency limit, it ain't necessarily strength circumventing hax. Hence the next paragraph about how it blocks attack like a shield in the way it matters: Up to a well-defined energy rating, in this case Tier 1.

Bro, what kind of shield are you talking about here?

Last time I read an explanation on shields, they didn't combine Probability hax with subjective reality to change the vectors of something.

You can add a note, either in the bottom of the page or similar to what we do with Regen and Immortality as you pointed some posts ago, but it doesn't deserve an entire Dura rating and area of effect has nothing to do with this, it being limited to Touma's hand wasn't even brought up to remove it from his profile IIRC.

Fine, we can just add a note in the P&A besides his vector manipulation. It's making it more troublesome for any reader that doesn't know the character, but whatever.

Okay? No one is saying Accel doesn't produce said energy, that has nothing to do with it being ED or not so no idea why you're talking about this.

Then why bring up the holistic effect? To quote you:

Straight from the ED page, Holistic Powers fit it perfectly, they can destroy galaxies with their power but can't apply this AP to direct attacks, so no it doesn't scales to PW's regular AP and whatever causes the galaxy to shake (the wings themselves, Clonoth, whatever it is) doesn't change absolutely anything.

Which suggests that you think he can't cause the big phenomena for any purpose than to cause the small one. But that's not the relationship here. Causing the small one is not a prerequisite to the big one, but the opposite.

Oh, that's interesting, because the quote where Accel shakes the galaxy adds right afterwards that he's applying a physical blow to Coronzon, would you say Coronzon has 4B durability?

The hit was on "a single person" (maybe Coronzon?) was entirely in purpose to force the astral projection.

He used the macro as a way of moving the micro.

By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person’s flesh and blood.

All to force an astral projection initiated by an external third party.

Which then is shown to not physically hit her (at least in no noticable way) but she just limply collapses.

A dull sound reverberated across the large temple made from the Queen Britannia’s heliport.

Below the blue sky, Great Demon Coronzon limply collapsed. The sound was her forehead hitting the floor.

With the only sound being her hitting her forehead on the floor.

Aside from the fact that, contrary to the galaxy shacking, this was actually part of the micro phenomena, it also quite clearly was not a powerful physical blow. Not even by base Accelerator standards. And Accelerator didn't intend it to be a powerful physical blow either.

What you're suggesting would ignoring all the context surrounding that scene.

 

[XDragnoir]

My point is that just as a forcefield it's reasonable to assume had has some potency limit, it ain't necessarily strength circumventing hax. Hence the next paragraph about how it blocks attack like a shield in the way it matters: Up to a well-defined energy rating, in this case Tier 1.

That's not reasonable to assume because that's not how the ability works, he has an energy limit at 11D because we treat higher d hax as being unable to interact with even higher dimensions (in this case 12D and above), if Accel was to lose the Higher D reflection he currently has he wouldn't be stuck at some arbitrary tier like 6B or 5B because adding joules to an attack doesn't allow it to ignore reality warping.

Again, why do I have to explain this? You think Aureolus can't use death hax against a 3A? You think Kakine and Misaki can't use their hax if you punch harder than them? Using reality warping in a defensive way doesn't suddenly mean this RW has a joules-based limit if that's never even implied inside the story, stop trying to force your view on the character if absolutely nothing supports it.

Then why bring up the holistic effect? To quote you:

Which suggests that you think he can't cause the big phenomena for any purpose than to cause the small one. But that's not the relationship here. Causing the small one is not a prerequisite to the big one, but the opposite.

That's not what I implied at all and it doesn't matter if he can shake the galaxy for other types of powers, if it's limited to soul hax or if he can do it whenever he wants without adding a microcosm effect, if you have no proof he can apply this energy directly on his attacks then it's not part of his AP, it's simply ED.

The hit was on "a single person" (maybe Coronzon?) was entirely in purpose to force the astral projection.

Which then is shown to not physically hit her (at least in no noticable way) but she just limply collapses.

With the only sound being her hitting her forehead on the floor.

Aside from the fact that, contrary to the galaxy shacking, this was actually part of the micro phenomena, it also quite clearly was not a powerful physical blow. Not even by base Accelerator standards. And Accelerator didn't intend it to be a powerful physical blow either.

What you're suggesting would ignoring all the context surrounding that scene.

And what you're suggesting goes completely against everything we've seen he do and what is implied he can do.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's not what I implied at all and it doesn't matter if he can shake the galaxy for other types of powers, if it's limited to soul hax or if he can do it whenever he wants without adding a microcosm effect, if you have no proof he can apply this energy directly on his attacks then it's not part of his AP, it's simply ED.

Again, he has feats of redirecting energy up to Tier 1. If he can produce 4-B energy in any way he can redirect it into an attack. What you're suggesting makes as little sense as to suggest that Accelerator could redirect Goku's Genkidama into a focussed attack because he has no feat of manipulating that particular attack, despite him having demonstrated the ability to do the same for far greater powers.

And what you're suggesting goes completely against everything we've seen he do and what is implied he can do.

Not really? We have seen nothing said against him being able to do this.

 

[XDragnoir]

Again, he has feats of redirecting energy up to Tier 1. If he can produce 4-B energy in any way he can redirect it into an attack. What you're suggesting makes as little sense as to suggest that Accelerator could redirect Goku's Genkidama into a focussed attack because he has no feat of manipulating that particular attack, despite him having demonstrated the ability to do the same for far greater powers.

Accelerator has a range limit, there's no reason he'd be able to control energy that is reaching all the way through the galaxy.

Like, why are you bringing AP into this? Or the Genkidama? A Genkidama is probably 100m or less, the Flaming Sword has pretty bad range and AoE.

To begin with, the Galaxy doesn't shake because Accelerator emanates his AIM or some kind of ki or whatever else throughout the galaxy, so there's nothing he could even try to focus in an attack and again, he has a range limit.

Not really? We have seen nothing said against him being able to do this.

Which doesn't matter because burden of proof is on you to prove that he can do that.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Where do you think the energy comes from? You're acting like the galaxy coincidentally shook on its own. That's not the case. Accelerator had to produce the needed power, so he has to have contact with it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Where do you think the energy comes from? You're acting like the galaxy coincidentally shook on its own. That's not the case. Accelerator had to produce the needed power, so he has to have contact with it.

First and foremost, where did you get that to produce he'd need contact? Kimi never touched a black hole and she still creates it, anyway, like all esper powers, his galaxy shake is a byproduct of his reality altering powers, there's no reason to assume the energy emanates from Accel's body and/or is at his disposal to control unless you have proof of any of the two, so:

If you want to claim it's in the effective range of his vector control that we've already seen or coming from his body like some kind of "energy aura", you have to bring actual evidence of that.

If you can't prove that, you have to at the very least prove his Vector Control extends as far away as the energy he released, that would be galaxy-wide range.

Not only that, even if you disagree with 4B Environmental Destruction for any reason, you've already agreed it's not the default energy output of his attacks in this mode (you disagreed with scaling Coronzon's dura to 4B and I doubt you think Elizard scales to 4B), that means that even if we remove ED, his profile has to split between the default AP and the hypothetical 4B AP that we've never even actually seen he use directly in a fight as far as you have proven.

Honestly man, you're full of both IRL and Wiki Wide stuff nowadays, if you don't have time/interest on debating Toaru then you can just ping some staff to come here to see if they agree with the logic we're using or just close this thread and reopen it with all your arguments when you have time, just making some small posts that don't move the discussion (that was applied quite some time ago by now) isn't helping any of us.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I went ahead and undid the backwards scaling, since that was approved already. Tell me if I missed something on the profile, or if any scaling was done based on the change that needs to be undone now.

---

If you say that Accel shook the galaxy by means of his esper power, i.e. his vector control, then the case is pretty clear cut. If it is him creating energy via his ability it scales to the very same ability, which he can very much uses for focussed attacks (as said, controlling any energy his power can control into an attack is like half his ability).
The same would apply to Kimi, except that Kimi has so bad control over her ability that she couldn't control which quadrant of the galaxy she spawns her black holes in, meaning that contrary to Accel she can't actually focus the energy produced by her ability in any practical way.

The alternative here is that he did it using his magical energy or the mysterious power he attacked Nepthys with. What both have in common is that those are energies he has contact with and to use them he would control/create them from his position.


And as I already told you, I disagree with scaling Conronzon's durability because I don't think Accelerator hit her with whatever is his strength, not because I think he isn't strong. The vaguely referenced "physical blow" is not specified to be on Coronzon and we see it have no effect at all, not even any knockback or pain. Remember that even base Accel could easily send Coronzon flying with a kick. This "blow" was also part of ritual to astral project her, rather than an attempt at dealing physical damage. Regardless of what you scale Platinum Wings Accel to it makes no sense to believe this was Accelerator hitting her either at all or with anything close to proper strength. It's a complete non-argument.


Incidentally, if you don't think Accelerator radiated the energy from his position, but just randomly spawned it in every star and planet of the galaxy without any cause, the calc would also be downgraded to 5-A, but the calc group approved the current 4-B end.


But sure, let's just have a staff vote decide.
@LordGriffin1000 @Qawsedf234
You were already voting on this thread, so may as well finish it. Do you think the galaxy shacking should be environmental damage or no?

 

[XDragnoir]

If you say that Accel shook the galaxy by means of his esper power, i.e. his vector control, then the case is pretty clear cut

That's not what I said so don't you put words in mouth, be it his Personal Reality or something else, Holism doesn't come from the Esper Ability that we see, or what, do you think Kimi's lightning scales to her Black Hole? Holism is a "condition" to trigger an esper ability that is in no way, shape or form at the users disposal, bring actual quotes to back up your takes for god's sake because you're just trying to argue about semantics at this point and I am not interested on that.

The same would apply to Kimi, except that Kimi has so bad control over her ability that she couldn't control which quadrant of the galaxy she spawns her black holes in, meaning that contrary to Accel she can't actually focus the energy produced by her ability in any practical way.

What? Holism was already clearly stated to be something the esper themselves are not even aware of, where did you get that she could have learnt to control where it would spawn? And where did you get that Accel was any different from her and could effectively control it?

The alternative here is that he did it using his magical energy or the mysterious power he attacked Nepthys with

It doesn't happen via either of those, if you think it does bring the quotes that support it, again, Holism is just a way to trigger esper abilities.

And as I already told you, I disagree with scaling Conronzon's durability because I don't think Accelerator hit her with whatever is his strength, not because I think he isn't strong. The vaguely referenced "physical blow" is not specified to be on Coronzon

"By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person’s flesh and blood."

What? You think the very specific flesh and blood person the quote is talking about isn't Corazon? You think Accel used it on himself or someone else? And it had a very obvious effect of removing Corazon's soul from her body, if it didn't damage her body that's because her dura is enough to withstand it.

And Accelerator clashed with Elizard in 22R, should we scale her to 4B?

This "blow" was also part of ritual to astral project her, rather than an attempt at dealing physical damage. Regardless of what you scale Platinum Wings Accel to it makes no sense to believe this was Accelerator hitting her either at all or with anything close to proper strength. It's a complete non-argument.

Then you agree that the only ever use of the galaxy shaking wasn't even an AP related thing that can be used for attacks.

Also, going against what the quote says, "applying a physical blow to a person's flesh and blood", to say he wasn't even hitting her at all is just... pretty strange in my opinion.

Incidentally, if you don't think Accelerator radiated the energy from his position, but just randomly spawned it in every star and planet of the galaxy without any cause, the calc would also be downgraded to 5-A, but the calc group approved the current 4-B end.

That's fine, I hope that the calc with that result is already done so that we can downgrade it and close this thread as it has not added anything to the discussion for the last 6 or 7 posts ig.

 

[VoidGoji]

Just nitpicking something on the post above: Accelerator was holding back and didn't intend to even harm or really kill
Elizard. The narration states at multiple poits that he could have done so at any moment in the fight, but he didn't want to. So even as a joke argument, its flawed

 

[XDragnoir]

Just nitpicking something on the post above: Accelerator was holding back and didn't intend to even harm or really kill
Elizard. The narration states at multiple poits that he could have done so at any moment in the fight, but he didn't want to. So even as a joke argument, its flawed

Fair enough

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I went ahead and undid the backwards scaling, since that was approved already. Tell me if I missed something on the profile, or if any scaling was done based on the change that needs to be undone now.

---

If you say that Accel shook the galaxy by means of his esper power, i.e. his vector control, then the case is pretty clear cut. If it is him creating energy via his ability it scales to the very same ability, which he can very much uses for focussed attacks (as said, controlling any energy his power can control into an attack is like half his ability).
The same would apply to Kimi, except that Kimi has so bad control over her ability that she couldn't control which quadrant of the galaxy she spawns her black holes in, meaning that contrary to Accel she can't actually focus the energy produced by her ability in any practical way.

The alternative here is that he did it using his magical energy or the mysterious power he attacked Nepthys with. What both have in common is that those are energies he has contact with and to use them he would control/create them from his position.


And as I already told you, I disagree with scaling Conronzon's durability because I don't think Accelerator hit her with whatever is his strength, not because I think he isn't strong. The vaguely referenced "physical blow" is not specified to be on Coronzon and we see it have no effect at all, not even any knockback or pain. Remember that even base Accel could easily send Coronzon flying with a kick. This "blow" was also part of ritual to astral project her, rather than an attempt at dealing physical damage. Regardless of what you scale Platinum Wings Accel to it makes no sense to believe this was Accelerator hitting her either at all or with anything close to proper strength. It's a complete non-argument.


Incidentally, if you don't think Accelerator radiated the energy from his position, but just randomly spawned it in every star and planet of the galaxy without any cause, the calc would also be downgraded to 5-A, but the calc group approved the current 4-B end.


But sure, let's just have a staff vote decide.
@LordGriffin1000 @Qawsedf234
You were already voting on this thread, so may as well finish it. Do you think the galaxy shacking should be environmental damage or no?

I haven't been following the discussion since I've been busy but if it's not something he outputs through his own power or whatever and he doesn't have something to suggest it scales to his physical blows then I'd argue environmental destruction (as XDragnoir seems to alluded to in comments above) is the best way to go, but if the method can be attributed to his actual power and not something random or beyond his control, I'd say no on environmental destruction.

Personally I'm a unsure given I don't know the series so can't give an solid response but from reading some of the comments above I'd say it's possible but I don't know how that would look on the profile given it mention physicals and ED.

 

[XDragnoir]

I haven't been following the discussion since I've been busy but if it's not something he outputs through his own power or whatever and he doesn't have something to suggest it scales to his physical blows then I'd argue environmental destruction (as XDragnoir seems to alluded to in comments above) is the best way to go, but if the method can be attributed to his actual power and not something random or beyond his control, I'd say no on environmental destruction.

Personally I'm a unsure given I don't know the series so can't give an solid response but from reading some of the comments above I'd say it's possible but I don't know how that would look on the profile given it mention physicals and ED.

If you want to get a conclusion of your own about how Holistic Espers work, here is our page about normal espers, the main image gives a clear view on the 3 aspects of Espers (I don't think reading the whole page is necessary) and here is what the novels said about Normal vs Holistic Espers:

As a warning, it's pretty long and I didn't highlight anything in particular, it's a read everything or don't even start case:

Spoiler

The scientific esper powers developed by Academy City had their base in quantum theory.
In quantum theory, the world was thought about at an exceedingly small level and it was
a strange field in which Newtonian mechanics such as an apple falling to the earth when
you let it go did not apply.
The object was definitely there, but it went somewhere else when observed by someone.
An object in a box could only be expressed in possibility or probability. It was not said to
be there or said to be not there. It could only be said to seventy percent exist.
If you thought about it in the terms of the normal world of science such as in terms of
drink cans or oranges, the ideas of quantum theory made no sense whatsoever. However,
if you controlled the microscopic world with the observer of a human mind, the
macroscopic world (that is, what could be seen with the naked eye) could be controlled.
That was what Academy City’s esper powers were.
However, there was another theory that was the counter to the microscopic quantum
theory.
Holism.
In that theory, the entire expanding universe was treated as a single large system or
network and things were viewed at the largest scale that humans could manage.
This once branched off to Gaia Theory which viewed the entire Earth as a single
environment or ecosystem, but the life forms on the Earth were also affected by solar
winds and the gravitational pull of the moon. If you also added in the time axis and other
dimensions to that large ‘world’, you were no longer dealing with just a single planet. In
that way, many had gone back to the origins of the theory and talking in true wholes once
more.
Gremlin had used Baggage City as a giant testing ground to complete the foundational
theory behind esper powers that used that holism.
The theory itself was simple.
It was the opposite of the butterfly effect that said the beating of a butterfly’s wings could
cause storms.

In other words, a major change on the global scale could cause flames to come from your
palm.
Just saying that the large affected the small may make it a little hard to understand.
However, we are constantly undergoing changes caused by large things.
For example, take the theory of relativity.
Setting aside the precise definition, let us focus on the part that says the flow of time slows
the closer an object gets to the speed of light.
A human riding in a car and a human riding in an airplane are in different ‘times’ that
would cause a slight immeasurable error.
So let us make the scale larger.
What about a human on Earth versus a human on the moon? What about a human on the
moon versus a human on Mars? Due to rotation and revolution, those people would be
within different speeds and therefore different times.
Now let us bring the scale up to the whole.
The universe was created in the Big Bang and is constantly expanding moment by
moment. Of course, we of humanity live in the universe and are all moving at the speed
of that expansion. This puts us in the relativistic time created by the Big Bang.
Now, let us go through a thought experiment.
The universe is expanding equally in every direction, but what if the expansion speed of a
single local area changed?
The change in speed would create a change in time.
An exceedingly large phenomenon would change the concept of time for a tiny human.
Of course, that is merely an example.
However, if you could bend or ball up the entire universe, the side effect of that power
would cause an exceedingly microscopic phenomenon that would be immeasurable even
with an electron microscope.
Does it seem like a rather roundabout method?
Do you think that if someone had power great enough to alter the expansion speed of the
universe, they should just use that power to directly crush the planet or the galaxy?

However, a holistic esper would only notice the flames coming from their palm. Even if
some distant galaxy was crushed in the process, that would be all they could comprehend.
Just like how a person in a car cannot notice that someone standing on the Earth is in a
different time.
As such, an esper created from the whole might only reach a Level 2 or 3 on Academy
City’s scale. Even if some truly ridiculous thing was occurring in reality, no one would
notice it, so it might as well not have been happening. Ironically, this was the same as the
concept of zero in quantum theory.

What I've been saying this whole time and I hope this quote gives you enough info to agree or at the very least understand my point:

Back to the 3 aspects of the espers from that image at the start, this wall of text should make it clear that the Esper Ability/Power (vector control, fire, electricity, etc) is a byproduct of the cosmic scale warping and doesn't correspond to it 1:1, so we have no reason to scale Accelerator to it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If you want to get a conclusion of your own about how Holistic Espers work, here is our page about normal espers, the main image gives a clear view on the 3 aspects of Espers (I don't think reading the whole page is necessary) and here is what the novels said about Normal vs Holistic Espers:

As a warning, it's pretty long and I didn't highlight anything in particular, it's a read everything or don't even start case:

Spoiler

The scientific esper powers developed by Academy City had their base in quantum theory.
In quantum theory, the world was thought about at an exceedingly small level and it was
a strange field in which Newtonian mechanics such as an apple falling to the earth when
you let it go did not apply.
The object was definitely there, but it went somewhere else when observed by someone.
An object in a box could only be expressed in possibility or probability. It was not said to
be there or said to be not there. It could only be said to seventy percent exist.
If you thought about it in the terms of the normal world of science such as in terms of
drink cans or oranges, the ideas of quantum theory made no sense whatsoever. However,
if you controlled the microscopic world with the observer of a human mind, the
macroscopic world (that is, what could be seen with the naked eye) could be controlled.
That was what Academy City’s esper powers were.
However, there was another theory that was the counter to the microscopic quantum
theory.
Holism.
In that theory, the entire expanding universe was treated as a single large system or
network and things were viewed at the largest scale that humans could manage.
This once branched off to Gaia Theory which viewed the entire Earth as a single
environment or ecosystem, but the life forms on the Earth were also affected by solar
winds and the gravitational pull of the moon. If you also added in the time axis and other
dimensions to that large ‘world’, you were no longer dealing with just a single planet. In
that way, many had gone back to the origins of the theory and talking in true wholes once
more.
Gremlin had used Baggage City as a giant testing ground to complete the foundational
theory behind esper powers that used that holism.
The theory itself was simple.
It was the opposite of the butterfly effect that said the beating of a butterfly’s wings could
cause storms.

In other words, a major change on the global scale could cause flames to come from your
palm.
Just saying that the large affected the small may make it a little hard to understand.
However, we are constantly undergoing changes caused by large things.
For example, take the theory of relativity.
Setting aside the precise definition, let us focus on the part that says the flow of time slows
the closer an object gets to the speed of light.
A human riding in a car and a human riding in an airplane are in different ‘times’ that
would cause a slight immeasurable error.
So let us make the scale larger.
What about a human on Earth versus a human on the moon? What about a human on the
moon versus a human on Mars? Due to rotation and revolution, those people would be
within different speeds and therefore different times.
Now let us bring the scale up to the whole.
The universe was created in the Big Bang and is constantly expanding moment by
moment. Of course, we of humanity live in the universe and are all moving at the speed
of that expansion. This puts us in the relativistic time created by the Big Bang.
Now, let us go through a thought experiment.
The universe is expanding equally in every direction, but what if the expansion speed of a
single local area changed?
The change in speed would create a change in time.
An exceedingly large phenomenon would change the concept of time for a tiny human.
Of course, that is merely an example.
However, if you could bend or ball up the entire universe, the side effect of that power
would cause an exceedingly microscopic phenomenon that would be immeasurable even
with an electron microscope.
Does it seem like a rather roundabout method?
Do you think that if someone had power great enough to alter the expansion speed of the
universe, they should just use that power to directly crush the planet or the galaxy?

However, a holistic esper would only notice the flames coming from their palm. Even if
some distant galaxy was crushed in the process, that would be all they could comprehend.
Just like how a person in a car cannot notice that someone standing on the Earth is in a
different time.
As such, an esper created from the whole might only reach a Level 2 or 3 on Academy
City’s scale. Even if some truly ridiculous thing was occurring in reality, no one would
notice it, so it might as well not have been happening. Ironically, this was the same as the
concept of zero in quantum theory.

What I've been saying this whole time and I hope this quote gives you enough info to agree or at the very least understand my point:

Back to the 3 aspects of the espers from that image at the start, this wall of text should make it clear that the Esper Ability/Power (vector control, fire, electricity, etc) is a byproduct of the cosmic scale warping and doesn't correspond to it 1:1, so we have no reason to scale Accelerator to it.

Not gonna lie, didn't really get the full context of the quote in the spoiler taf as a whole but the end portion does seem to imply they have no control over that and it's a side effect (environmental destruction). So I do understand your point and I do think environmental destruction works better going of that which you posted.

 

[XDragnoir]

Not gonna lie, didn't really get the full context of the quote in the spoiler taf as a whole but the end portion does seem to imply they have no control over that and it's a side effect (environmental destruction)

If there's anything specific you want me to clarify, go ahead and ask, otherwise I am pretty sure there's nothing more to be said here at this point.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Incidentally, if you don't think Accelerator radiated the energy from his position, but just randomly spawned it in every star and planet of the galaxy without any cause, the calc would also be downgraded to 5-A, but the calc group approved the current 4-B end.

Accelerator's power is manipulating existing vectors isn't it? I'm not sure how exactly he could generate the energy himself, unless you're saying that the majority of the power came from his position on Earth and he deflected it outwards.

For the ability I don't think Accelerator has the limitations to treat the feat as only Environmental Destruction rather than AP, but I'm also not super knowledgeable about the series especially this late into it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Accelerator's power is manipulating existing vectors isn't it? I'm not sure how exactly he could generate the energy himself, unless you're saying that the majority of the power came from his position on Earth and he deflected it outwards.

The shaking doesn't come from his Vector Control to begin with.

For the ability I don't think Accelerator has the limitations to treat the feat as only Environmental Destruction rather than AP, but I'm also not super knowledgeable about the series especially this late into it.

Did you read my previous post where there is an explanation of how Holism (Accelerator's galaxy shaking power) works? It is clearly not applicable to his main powers in any way other than Environmental Destruction.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Did you read my previous post where there is an explanation of how Holism

No, where is it?

 

[XDragnoir]

No, where is it?

Post #100, it's under a spoiler tab and there are other things that should be read alongside it in the post as well (jumping to the spoiler tab may leave some things unanswered).

 

[DontTalkDT]

If you want to get a conclusion of your own about how Holistic Espers work, here is our page about normal espers, the main image gives a clear view on the 3 aspects of Espers (I don't think reading the whole page is necessary) and here is what the novels said about Normal vs Holistic Espers:

As a warning, it's pretty long and I didn't highlight anything in particular, it's a read everything or don't even start case:

Spoiler

The scientific esper powers developed by Academy City had their base in quantum theory.
In quantum theory, the world was thought about at an exceedingly small level and it was
a strange field in which Newtonian mechanics such as an apple falling to the earth when
you let it go did not apply.
The object was definitely there, but it went somewhere else when observed by someone.
An object in a box could only be expressed in possibility or probability. It was not said to
be there or said to be not there. It could only be said to seventy percent exist.
If you thought about it in the terms of the normal world of science such as in terms of
drink cans or oranges, the ideas of quantum theory made no sense whatsoever. However,
if you controlled the microscopic world with the observer of a human mind, the
macroscopic world (that is, what could be seen with the naked eye) could be controlled.
That was what Academy City’s esper powers were.
However, there was another theory that was the counter to the microscopic quantum
theory.
Holism.
In that theory, the entire expanding universe was treated as a single large system or
network and things were viewed at the largest scale that humans could manage.
This once branched off to Gaia Theory which viewed the entire Earth as a single
environment or ecosystem, but the life forms on the Earth were also affected by solar
winds and the gravitational pull of the moon. If you also added in the time axis and other
dimensions to that large ‘world’, you were no longer dealing with just a single planet. In
that way, many had gone back to the origins of the theory and talking in true wholes once
more.
Gremlin had used Baggage City as a giant testing ground to complete the foundational
theory behind esper powers that used that holism.
The theory itself was simple.
It was the opposite of the butterfly effect that said the beating of a butterfly’s wings could
cause storms.

In other words, a major change on the global scale could cause flames to come from your
palm.
Just saying that the large affected the small may make it a little hard to understand.
However, we are constantly undergoing changes caused by large things.
For example, take the theory of relativity.
Setting aside the precise definition, let us focus on the part that says the flow of time slows
the closer an object gets to the speed of light.
A human riding in a car and a human riding in an airplane are in different ‘times’ that
would cause a slight immeasurable error.
So let us make the scale larger.
What about a human on Earth versus a human on the moon? What about a human on the
moon versus a human on Mars? Due to rotation and revolution, those people would be
within different speeds and therefore different times.
Now let us bring the scale up to the whole.
The universe was created in the Big Bang and is constantly expanding moment by
moment. Of course, we of humanity live in the universe and are all moving at the speed
of that expansion. This puts us in the relativistic time created by the Big Bang.
Now, let us go through a thought experiment.
The universe is expanding equally in every direction, but what if the expansion speed of a
single local area changed?
The change in speed would create a change in time.
An exceedingly large phenomenon would change the concept of time for a tiny human.
Of course, that is merely an example.
However, if you could bend or ball up the entire universe, the side effect of that power
would cause an exceedingly microscopic phenomenon that would be immeasurable even
with an electron microscope.
Does it seem like a rather roundabout method?
Do you think that if someone had power great enough to alter the expansion speed of the
universe, they should just use that power to directly crush the planet or the galaxy?

However, a holistic esper would only notice the flames coming from their palm. Even if
some distant galaxy was crushed in the process, that would be all they could comprehend.
Just like how a person in a car cannot notice that someone standing on the Earth is in a
different time.
As such, an esper created from the whole might only reach a Level 2 or 3 on Academy
City’s scale. Even if some truly ridiculous thing was occurring in reality, no one would
notice it, so it might as well not have been happening. Ironically, this was the same as the
concept of zero in quantum theory.

What I've been saying this whole time and I hope this quote gives you enough info to agree or at the very least understand my point:

Back to the 3 aspects of the espers from that image at the start, this wall of text should make it clear that the Esper Ability/Power (vector control, fire, electricity, etc) is a byproduct of the cosmic scale warping and doesn't correspond to it 1:1, so we have no reason to scale Accelerator to it.

Not gonna lie, didn't really get the full context of the quote in the spoiler taf as a whole but the end portion does seem to imply they have no control over that and it's a side effect (environmental destruction). So I do understand your point and I do think environmental destruction works better going of that which you posted.

No, where is it?

The problem with what XDragnoir is saying there is that the galaxy shacking isn't a holistic esper effect at all. It was just something he did as a prerequisite to manifest one. The galaxy shacking itself is something he must have accomplished using a non-holistic power.

Spoiler: Bigger explanation

To be more specific: Holistic powers work by creating a huge phenomenon in order to manifest a small practical power. Imagine you have a power that slightly bends space. As it turns out this power works, by each time you want to bend space a giant black hole spawning 100 lightyears away and its gravitational waves are actually what bend the space. That's what a holistic power is like.

Problem is that the holistic power in itself doesn't aid you in creating a black hole. Or, maybe it would for a real user, but real holistic psychics don't exist so we don't know the presumed mechanism. Accelerator is only doing something similar. He needs to manifest the large scale phenomenon (in our analogy the black hole, in practice the galaxy shacking) via his regular powers first.

Hence the entire holistic power comparison doesn't really matter. In practice, Accelerator is creating the galaxy shacking to complete a magic ritual to attack a single person. The "do something large to affect something small" is following a similar principle, but that is all there is to it. It's not a separate "cerate exclusively galaxy shacking"-power.

Accelerator's power is manipulating existing vectors isn't it? I'm not sure how exactly he could generate the energy himself, unless you're saying that the majority of the power came from his position on Earth and he deflected it outwards.

For the ability I don't think Accelerator has the limitations to treat the feat as only Environmental Destruction rather than AP, but I'm also not super knowledgeable about the series especially this late into it.

Not quite. A vector consists of both direction and magnitude. The vector of velocity for example says both in which direction something moves and how fast it does so. So by changing the magnitude of the vector, Accelerator can actually create force from nothing, which would be one option of how he did the galaxy shacking.

At that point in time he could also have two other means of doing it: Magic or some unknown invisible power.

Thing is, he has demonstrated controlling magical energy with his vector control before.

She had simply seen Accelerator forcefully stomp on the truck’s floor. That was all. But something like a shockwave radiated from that point and, when it passed through Qliphah Puzzle 545’s body, the contract with Coronzon – the thing inside her that had been driving her to act – was mercilessly shredded

She was freed from her bonds.

Did this mean she was free to do as she wished?

Could she really accept that the world had opened up before her?

“Really? Why do you look so shocked?”

“Um, umm, uh, why???”

“Was it called an original grimoire? Whatever it was, you can keep them from functioning by bringing the energy in the area to the saturation point to obstruct the transfer of power, right? The basic idea is the same as electrocuting someone by screwing with the transmission of their nerve signals. I learned how it’s done when it happened to that Edward Berridge guy. So the rest is all about control. If I keep my output below what would destroy you, I can remove just the malfunctioning parts.”

“B-but, huh? Aren’t you a little confused? I might be an artificial demon that exists as a contrast to the Thoth Tarot, but I don’t actually use tarot cards. So you shouldn’t be able to save me with the same method used on grimoires.”

“Hm?”

He sounded like she had just returned without the drink he had asked for.

The #1 seemed fed up with it all as he responded.

“You hadn’t figured it out? You were created by passing energy through the Qliphoth according to a special process, so you’re made from a type of energy, right? How is that any different from the grimoires that suck energy up from the ground or whatever?”

“Ah.”

“Hold on. Isn’t your job to full in the gaps in my knowledge? Are you screwing with me?”

The logic checked out.

But Qliphah Puzzle 545 could not even hazard a guess at how difficult it would be to actually do it. It was as reckless as trying to use a giant chainsaw to slice just the shell of a raw egg without breaking the yolk.

And he had seen through to something not even she had realized about herself.

She had recovered after being defeated, but that was only because she was very similar in nature to an indestructible grimoire.

This was likely the ultimate technique that not even Aleister Crowley or Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers had even considered as a possibility whether or not they could have done it.

Yet he was supposed to be an amateur.

Even though he had only just now peered into the other side of the world.

The #1 could not even manage the fundamental act of refining life force into magic power. Here, he had only manipulated some vectors to bend and gather the thinly distributed energy that was already there.

And for the invisible power:

“Magic God, you still cling to the surface!! So don’t think you stand a chance against my master who has crossed the Abyss!!!!!”

An explosive noise burst out.

But it was not the sound of the violent gale Accelerator had been trying to unleash.

This was less distinct.

It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.

His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.

Using his vector control to weaponize that is the first thing he did.

For Accelerator's Galaxy Shacking to be Environmental destruction he would need to be incapable of gathering the power he produced. However, we know Accelerator can control every type of energy he produces via his vector manipulation. So there is no way he couldn't do that.

 

[XDragnoir]

The problem with what XDragnoir is saying there is that the galaxy shacking isn't a holistic esper effect at all. It was just something he did as a prerequisite to manifest one. The galaxy shacking itself is something he must have accomplished using a non-holistic power.

The novel itself compares it to Holistic espers so obviously the author wants us to treat it akin to how Holistics themselves work, not only that but if you now want to argue that he isn't using Holism at all then your entire "he has better control than Kimi" point simply becomes nonexistent.

Accelerator can actually create force from nothing, which would be one option of how he did the galaxy shacking.

At that point in time he could also have two other means of doing it: Magic or some unknown invisible power.

Thing is, he has demonstrated controlling magical energy with his vector control before.

Neither of these 3 were even implied to be what caused the galaxy shaking nor is there any reason for them to allow him to shake the galaxy.

And I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that he can somehow focus that in a punch to throw at someone.

For Accelerator's Galaxy Shacking to be Environmental destruction he would need to be incapable of gathering the power he produced. However, we know Accelerator can control every type of energy he produces via his vector manipulation. So there is no way he couldn't do that.

The "invisible power" and the "magic" that Accelerator can use aren't covering the galaxy as far as we know, so why does that matter?

Not only that, just read the quotes you just sent, he didn't produce any of them, in both cases he was using energy that was already there to his advantage, even if the "invisible power" did cover the whole galaxy (which you brought no evidence for so far) Accel's vector control would need galactic range to affect all of it, as I pointed posts and posts ago.

Like, c'mon now, your own quotes don't line up with what you're saying.

 

[Churronzon]

Just a heads up that I added the 11-D dimensionality and feat to Accel's P&A that Qawsedf234 and DontTalkDT settled on after the removal of the High 1-C tiering. If I made a mistake, let me know or revert it.