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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)

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To be fair you could argue Othinus to be 2-A and true magic gods to be Low 1-C under new system

But that's still a downgrade
 
I'm not quite certain what's going on here anymore.
 
So from what I gathered it looks like those agiants 1-C MG are basing around their arguments on the fact tha the series doesn't proove that the Dimensions are infinite am I correct on this?
 
I think Ultima was busy with the Twin Peaks thing? (Shoulda made this when he's free. This is damn controversial)
 
Even if the downgrade does happens, can we add to the teleporters (and maybe the Magic Gods, since they can also control the 11th dimension) resistance to precog?
 
The main guy who's debunking things is Ultima, who's revising Marvel now.

Either wait for him or remind him of this.
 
just for knowledge we should not argue about tier but more about the size, the tier is inconsequential as u could change it to be 11 if u want

from what we know now index dimension are 11 or MORE , encompass the lower ones and are AT LEAST the size of the lower ones (so universe sized) or Curtana could potential create irreparable damage to the dimension them self

they are not sub spaces or small size
 
Okay I can tell that people are getting a bit flustered on how things are progressing so does anyone know the tally for the vote? At least that way we can see what vote got more.
 
It'd just be Appeal to popularity if we just tally votes with no real debunked points of 11D Index not passing the new standards.

As far as I see, there's "non-insignificant" part of the 11D in Index that are still to be debunked (if it could be done)

(I'll admit. I'm also suspicious of Index 11D's legitimacy, but I don't want this to pass "just because people like it")
 
If that's the case then its defently better to wait for Ultima to be free of his current proects since he's the one who brought up the downgrades in the first place. So when he gets back we can do one final showing of the evedence that has been posted so far(if needed) and he can decide on whether or not their definitive or not, and 'just being to vauge' probably won't be enough to explain why it won't work, it'll just leave a lot of people unsatified with it if that's the reasoning we are going with.
 
I wouldn't quite say there's no debunked point. A lot of the people agreeing with the staying position are just supporting people who brought up their defense.
 
Also people are going to be unsatisfied with the prospect of downgrades no matter what because fans in this website in general mostly care about higher tiers for their faves. I am no exception.
 
Technically speaking there should be nothing to vote for, we simply take what the novels says and show and if it fit the category it gets downgraded or not by the mods
 
Okay, let's please not go that route. While I do agree with Matt, saying "Fans only care about higher tiers" over and over is kind of provoking people. And not every supporter agrees with every upgrade opportunity for their verse they see or support a downgrade for the "Verse opposite of their favorite verse" they see. It's true a lot of them are and even the better ones are semi like that about being pretty defensive of their favorite verses. But still, bringing up every minor detail isn't worth it.
 
StrongClick said:
It does he maps out future with 100% accuracy using 3D calcs, meaning 4D+ interference breaks the law of causality and they can change that destined outcome. So if he used 4D calcs to map the future u would need 5D Manipulation and so on.
Click to expand...
No... that's a straight up non-sequitur. If I simulate a 2D world something from 3 dimensions poking in will mess up the simulation, since it wasn't part of the simulated area. The case we have there is the same, just with 11 dimensional stuff poking into 3D.


That aside, which arguments are left from which it wasn't already explained why they don't apply?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I wouldn't quite say there's no debunked point. A lot of the people agreeing with the staying position are just supporting people who brought up their defense.
Click to expand...
Okay, but which points were debunked? That's irrelevant.
 
@DT It's much more complex than that. Shaei's thoughtography which maps the world 100% accurately with 3D calculations can't be overcome with 3D interference due to a law of causality or fate by magic terms as explained by the text which means if the danger event is altered it will merely happen elsewhere. Like you say, to overcome this law, it requires interference from a higher dimension to change these events since the precog only maps the 3D. Meaning the higher D interference bypasses causality and alters the event, effectively changing "conclusions that would otherwise be inescapable in the 3rd Dimension ", without causing another one to undoubtedly happen.
 
I am not really too interested in debating on this thread anymore, but I should note that nevertheless, 3-dimensional calculations and simulations not being able to predict the behaviour of higher-dimensional phenomena is all but natural and sort of a given, as they work under a three-dimensional framework in the first place and obviously wouldn't be able to account for the additional variables which 11-dimensional events would entail. At best this can mean that higher-dimensional stuff in To Aru abides by a different manifestation of physical constants or something like that.

Addressing the point about the Hidden World's size being related to higher dimensions. I... don't see why this connection is being made? Not everything must involve higher dimensions, especially in cases where they aren't mentioned in the first place. Wasn't the Hidden World also accepted to exist outside of the setting's normal dimensions anyways? Considering there is a quote in the blog stating its location is codified by numbers that don't exist in the first place, whereas coordinates along axes are mathematically always given by very much "real" numbers.

As for Curtana's nature, I'd say it "being able to cut through the Universe itself" seems way too vague to pinpoint the physical universe's size in relation to the additional dimensions, especially given how vaguely defined they seem to be from what the excerpts say. In general, I am not saying that To Aru's higher dimensions can't allow for a higher tier, but more like they are described in a waaay too vague manner for us to attribute it with certainty. I'd be fine with something along the lines of a "possibly far higher" to be put on the profiles, if a downgrade does happen of course.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I am not really too interested in debating on this thread anymore, but I should note that nevertheless, 3-dimensional calculations and simulations not being able to predict the behaviour of higher-dimensional phenomena is all but natural and sort of a given, as they work under a three-dimensional framework in the first place and obviously wouldn't be able to account for the additional variables which 11-dimensional events would entail. At best this can mean that higher-dimensional stuff in To Aru abides by a different manifestation of physical constants or something like that.
Click to expand...
Regarding this bit, absolute conclusions calculated by the 3D framework not being able to account for higher dimensional factors is a given of course. But, what I think Click is saying is normal(3D) interfence with these absolute conclusions causes the world to spawn new events to ensure these predetermined conclusions come to past due to causality laws. So altering this predietermined event by manipulating a higher dimension not only defys the 3D precog conclusions but it also stops the world from creating new events to fit that 3D mold.
 
Since Ultima seems to have decided to walk out of this descusion I feel like this won't go any where since only ultima seems to be the main person attempting to dissproove the point mentioned with every one else just simply either just agreeing with him or just giving their opinion of the matter without actually disprooving the points, so I feel like this will never end untill someone decideds to just end it by Tally.

I have a proposle if everyone is willing to accept since I doubt a proper descusion can happen due to how complex Toaru cosmology is, at least when it comes to Dimensions.

The tier I present are for Othinus and True Gremlin at their most powerful( 100% Othinus and full power TMG) since they are the main character at this tier and everone close to them just simply scales to them. I won't post scans since its not new information at this point.

Othinus: At least Low 2-C Possibly 2A:

TG: 2-A Possibly Low1-C:

Every phase that Othinus creates completly changes the world and can effect both space and time, showing she can change history as well as shown in the Omega world. This means that while their is only one Timeline, the world has many different layers that can appear at different point in the timeline. A clear example is that despite both Othinus and Touma fighting for such a long time over many different layers, almost no time has past when they returned to the original Phase.

TG on the other hand can just out right destroy the World just by walking around and thats presumly includeds all the phases that make up it since they could ony resided in a place of nothingness just to not destroy the World. Now why the Low 1-C? Simple while their is no proof of showing the higher dimensions are large the simple fact that the World does have Higer dimensions and they follow how Dimensions acutally work and we know that Magic Gods know about Dimensions through Othinus and she admits that their is no such things as Alternante Worlds.

The Main Reason for the downgrades, that I've been getting at least since no other proof has been presented or been properly explained, is that they're no proof that the Dimensions are at least non-insignificant, sure we can imply or saftly hypothosize they are but nothing to definitive, at least going by Unltima opinion. However the fact that they are real and true Dimensions are a thing that can't be denied and that they are just as part of the world as everything else.

The Reason I chose Low 1-C is due that time, the standard beleive of the 4th Dimension, is very much something that can be affected by MG and if Othinus, someone that is weaker then TG, can easily rewrite the Worlds Timeline however sheplease then what's stopping TG from accedently destroying the TImeline,hell the Hidden is stated to be beyond time and space so Time iseasily something they could easily destroy.

Anyways the main reason I'm doing this is due to how the Descussion is progressing, it shows that nothing is going to happen and it'll just comtinue in a loop until someone just ends this via Tally. No progress is being made and the main supporter for the Downgrade has basically left due to being out of intrest in the topic, and unless anyone else from the Supporters wants to step up and be the person to properly explain and properly dissproof the points given then nothing will happen.

Notice that I bolded 'everyone' in my 2nd paragraph, I want to make sure that every one is satisfied with this and unless everyone agrees with this then my suggestion won't matter. I want this Thread to end cleanly and not left as a mess, To aru cosmology is complex and the exact detail of the Higher Dimensions are not clear and I want this to be done cleanly and not half assedly.
 
I think at least 2A possibly H1C is better for both Othinus and MGs, the MGs don't really transcend Othinus (they are just much more powerful than she is), and living outside a 2A (why 2A btw?) Multiverse and being able to destroy it with a thought isn't L1C afaik.
 
Sorry, I'm a bit confused. Why exactly doesn't the Curtana explanation prove that the 11 dimensions are of non-insignificant size? The sword literally wouldn't work if these dimensions were limited in size. I don't know if I'm missing something, but what's so unclear about that? It seems pretty clear cut to me
 
And what Curtana does is to be able cut anything through these higher dimensions, hence the 3D cross-sectional debris. The proof isn't so much that it can just cut through a new axis of direction, but rather how it shows the precedence in relation between objects/beings that can access or exist on these higher dimensions, and those on the lower dimensions. I mean isn't that the whole point of using dimensional tiering? That beings or objects of these higher dimensions can trivialize everything below them into insignificance, either by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or having a size equivalent to a greater infinity in relation to them? It's through the same principle that Curtana is able to cut through anything
 
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