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To Aru Majutsu no Index: Fixing Issues with Accelerator

FantaRin_The_First

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Character To Be Affected
Side Note
Hey, hey, fanta here. Wanna just say that this CRT is only focusing on "fixing" Accelerator, nothing more nothing less. Therefore, any mentions of characters that aren't Accelerator will be ignored, even if they "scale" to Accelerator, as they will be focused on in an entirely separate CRT to prevent bloating this CRT.


Summary - Sandbox | Current Profile
  • All three of Accelerator's Keys (Attack Potency with Vector Manipulation-only) will be listed as 6-B as the third key has no reason to be stronger then the previous two key as it goes against the entire narrative of the story and statements regarding Accelerator's power from every character- even the statements made by Accelerator himself
    • Name for Accelerator's Key will be - Pre-Headshot, Post-Headshot, Post-Awakening and Post-Clonoth - and that's that.
  • Accelerator's Reflection will not be mentioned at all in the durability section as it is hax to reflect attacks from him completely
  • Accelerator's High 6-A rating will be removed from his first key as it involves a technique and info that he discovers later on in his Second Key
  • No to Downgrading Black Wing Accelerator's Durability
  • Yes to Downgrading White Wing Accelerator's Durability as it using scaling to an attack that left Accelerator unconscious for a great deal of time and was something Accelerator admitted would've killed him if it wasn't weakened by an outside interference (In-profile, it's part in Accelerator's durability will just be listed as even higher)
  • Yes to Downgrading Platinum Wings Accelerator's galaxy shaking feat as Environmental Destruction as it used a cosmology changing event to cause it to occur in the first place which as a result will downgrade Platinum Wings Accelerator's base stats to far higher instead of being given a solid rating
  • Gave Accelerator's Third Key Transformation in its P&A to account for the Black & White Wings transformation


Fixing Accelerator's Keys and Their Scaling
DragNoir in their 6B CRT has bought up a massive issue in terms of Accelerator's key and scaling: "Accel's keys are really arbitrary rn, they were created to prevent some characters (like Kakine himself) from scaling to saint tier back in the day, so they're not actually based on power ups or actual changes in power, but instead are based on "this one is a new key to not upgrade who he fought before".

Let's fix this... But before we start... Read this.
Note: Accelerator's first three key cannot scale to his forth key due to a previous CRT preventing it from happening in order to prevent a massive scaling issue. I share a similar sentiment. Moreover, Accelerator's forth key is when he acquired the presence, abilities and support of Qliphah Puzzle 545, and the support of the Clonoth "tree" that "aids" his vector manipulation and bestowed him a brand new transformation. Furthermore, Accelerator's forth key is when he can harm and fight "on-par" with 5-Bs, Coronzon and Nephthys, whereas his previous keys has him being one-shotted and almost killed by Aiwass, a 5-B who is canonically "weaker" then the aforementioned two 5Bs.

Moving on... Here's an important piece of information;
“You’re really pitiful. Listen, I’ll tell you one thing.”

The figure in the darkness slowly opened his arms wide.

“That day, my brain was damaged alright. Looking at me now, you should know, right? That I can only use the electrode and let the calculation work be done by others, right? If I enter a place where I can’t receive the clones’ electrowaves, I can’t let the clones do the calculation work for me. And even after therapy, I don't know if my recovered power is half of what I originally had. The battery of this thing can only allow me to fight for 15 minutes—”

Talking up to this point, Accelerator paused for a while.

“—But then again, just because I’ve gotten weaker, it doesn’t mean that you got stronger, RIGHT?”
[To Aru Majutsu no Index Volume 8 Chapter 4 BTL 4]

Accelerator's first key is him in his "prime", so to speak. Every following key is detailing Accelerator after a massive brain injury that left him crippled- physically and power-wise. He can't walk without a crutch, he is unable to speak or understand the world around without assistance from an electrode and has a time limit for how long he can fight. Most importantly of all, though, is the fact that Accelerator himself stated that he isn't sure if what he has left is half of what he originally had.

Therefore... It would go against the entire narrative if Accelerator's second and third key are stronger than his first key. Furthermore, the thing separating Accelerator's second key and third key is arbitrary as heck, which is Accelerator simply learning magic exist and trying to account for it for his vector shield (Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, Chapter 11 Part 1). A progress, mind you, that is never stated to power up Accelerator and is simply him just patching a weakness in his ability (through his lack of knowledge), i.e abilities/attacks that don't operate by the normal laws of physics can bypass his reflection and is a weakness in his ability that he can "patch" in the middle of combat as seen with his fight with Kakine (Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 15, Chapter 5 Parts 3-4)

Thus, I propose the following;

The AP of Accelerator's first key should scale above Second and Third keys, for obvious reasons. I also propose that Accelerator's Post-Headshot Key and Post-Aiwass Key (and the abilities the keys possess) should be merged, as Accelerator acquiring information of the laws behind magic and its existence isn't stated-either explicitly or implicitly-to have increase the strength or potency of Accelerator's power and only just broaden Accelerator's knowledge of the verse, and the keys themselves only exist to "stop" back scaling.
Fixing Stats for Accelerator's Wings
Starting with Accelerator's Black Wings "form"... This form's durability comes from a statement from a character named Index, who stated Accelerator was containing so much power that she wasn't sure a Saint could handle it all. The issue is that Saints gain their power through special bodily characteristics and idol theory (verse's magic system) but they have an inherent issue of only being able to manage a small portion of their power lest their bodies' self-destruct due to the strain. However, Accelerator doesn't hold any bodily characteristics that allows him to use his power to enhance his physicals like Saints nor is it even ever implied that he has access to a UES that allows him to enhance his physicals through a unique energy source like other verses like Dragon Ball, and so on. So his durability shouldn't scale to the power/AP of his wings. But it does heightened Accelerator's durability to a "higher" but "unknown" degree, therefore, its durability should be rated as "higher" instead of anything solid. AP will still be kept the same, however.
  • Want to point out the slight dishonesty on Black Wings's durability section, before I move on. It has this (Index stated that not even a Saint would have been able to handle the power flowing through his body) but as my scan (and the scan in Accelerator's profile) shows, Index only stated that she was not sure if a Saint could handle his power not that she was sure a saint's body couldn't handle his power at all, which is the sentiment Accelerator's current durability justification pushes.
For his Wing Wings... In this form, Accelerator's durability is stated to have stopped and survived an attack that would've destroyed Eurasia. This is true. In a sense. Because it is leaving out the detail that Accelerator was immediately knocked out upon colliding with the attack and stayed unconscious atop a hill for a long time, in addition, Accelerator stated that the only reason he was alive like this-collapsed atop a hill-was because this Eurasia Buster had been stopped at the last second. Therefore, WW!Accelerator's Durability can't scale to this feat, and should be listen as "higher"... for obvious reasons that I don't need to repeat.
Removing H1-C from Accelerator's Durability
If you take a look at Accelerator's profile, you'll see that Accelerator's Vector Shield is rated H1-C. Issue, however... Accelerator's Vector Shield just reflects things away from him via Vector Manipulation, so... Um... It should not be listed in his durability section, nuff said.

... I don't need to explain this any further, right? Accelerator's Vector Shield doesn't hold any of the traditional qualities of conventional durability, and is more so a barrier protecting him from harm-therefore, it shouldn't be listed or mentioned in Accelerator's durability, and should have this note at the bottom of his profile;
Note: To prevent no-limits fallcies, it should be known that the greatest feat that Accelerator's Vector Shield has done is when it had intercepted and redirected Coronzon's Magick: Flaming_Sword, which is High Complex Multiverse level)
Or something like this, idk. I can rework this note to make it sound better.
Votes
[Agree:]
[Disagree:]
[Neutral:]
 
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I don't care whether the keys are removed or not, but I see some self-contradiction in keeping the Post-Qliphah key. I know its removal causes some scaling contradictions such as Kakine being greater than Nephthys in durability, but not caring about scaling contradictions is one of the reasons you're merging keys in the first place.
Accelerator's forth key is when he acquired the presence, abilities and support of Qliphah Puzzle 545, and the support of the Clonoth "tree" that "aids" his vector manipulation and bestowed him a brand new transformation. Furthermore, Accelerator's forth key is when he can harm and fight "on-par" with 5-Bs, Coronzon and Nephthys,
Qliphah did not provide Accelerator the ability to fight/harm 5-B's and he did so prior to implementing the Clonoth.


Starting with Accelerator's Black Wings "form"...
nor is it even ever implied that he has access to a UES that allows him to enhance his physicals through a unique energy source like other verses like Dragon Ball,
Is increased durability not an inherent aspect of possessing Telesma-adjacent energy? I know most demons for example are weakened by cutting away at their Telesma.
Therefore, WW!Accelerator's Durability can't scale to this feat, and should be listen as "higher"... for obvious reasons that I don't need to repeat.
So what massive power did Accelerator clash with and what tragedy did Accelerator's white wings prevent?


Obviously I agree with removing High 1-C Accel and it got a staff vote from Qawsedf234 in one of my old CRTs. Idk if staff votes ever expire though.
and should have this note at the bottom of his profile;

Note: To prevent no-limits fallcies, it should be known that the greatest feat that Accelerator's Vector Shield has done is when it had intercepted and redirected Coronzon's Magick: Flaming_Sword, which is High Complex Multiverse level)
The note does not need to state that its purpose is to prevent NLF. The refusal to believe hax doesn't care about raw power is a relic from when people would frequently misunderstand how hax works. For example, nowadays Medaka stomps Unsong's Metatron due to her hax not caring about High 1-A tierings, and Medaka didn't need feats of operating on that level.
 
I don't care whether the keys are removed or not, but I see some self-contradiction in keeping the Post-Qliphah key. I know its removal causes some scaling contradictions such as Kakine being greater than Nephthys in durability, but not caring about scaling contradictions is one of the reasons you're merging keys in the first place.

Qliphah did not provide Accelerator the ability to fight/harm 5-B's and he did so prior to implementing the Clonoth.
Personally, I am up-in-the-air about this matter, I admit. However, all of Accelerator's 5B feats happened around the time period that Accelerator's 5-B key is in, and hasn't shown anything similar to beforehand, so eh. I just want to prevent a massive amount of unneeded keys existing while also preventing a massive amount of character suddenly becoming 5B as well.

Also, last time I checked, Accelerator's Qliphah key is supposed to represent the moment that he got her and everything from NT21 to all the way until now-ish times, so it would cover Accelerator's 5B feats.
Yeah, Accelerator's Black Wings did buff his durability to some degree, as seen when he no-sold that grenade, but there is nothing supporting the idea that Accelerator's durability is buffed to 6B levels-especially when 9-B Touma is capable of harming him, with it being stated in their fight that Accelerator's power was too much strong for Touma's IB to negate.

Unless you want Touma to become 6B-which is something that the narrative of the story is against entirely, so good luck with that.

... Fiamma's attack. But again. I do want to point out that Accelerator was immediately OHKOed and the narration itself stated that the only reason that he was left was because it was stopped at the last second-which, by order of events, is Touma negating Holy Right and destroying its physical form.

You can't argue against this. This is how the story present it. Accel stopped Fiamma's attack, but was OHKO'ed and would've died if Touma didn't unknowingly help him via negating HR/
Obviously I agree with removing High 1-C Accel and it got a staff vote from Qawsedf234 in one of my old CRTs. Idk if staff votes ever expire though.

The note does not need to state that its purpose is to prevent NLF. The refusal to believe hax doesn't care about raw power is a relic from when people would frequently misunderstand how hax works. For example, nowadays Medaka stomps Unsong's Metatron due to her hax not caring about High 1-A tierings, and Medaka didn't need feats of operating on that level.
Neat.
 
Fixing stats for Accel's wings, I'm going have to disagree for both of his BW and WW.

For his BW
Yeah, Accelerator's Black Wings did buff his durability to some degree, as seen when he no-sold that grenade, but there is nothing supporting the idea that Accelerator's durability is buffed to 6B levels-especially when 9-B Touma is capable of harming him, with it being stated in their fight that Accelerator's power was too much strong for Touma's IB to negate.

Unless you want Touma to become 6B-which is something that the narrative of the story is against entirely, so good luck with that.
Looking back at the fight, I find the battle was simply odd in general tbh. This was the same Accelerator whose speed was comparable with Gabriel and Kazakiri, even without his BW and yet Touma with his peak human speed was able to tag and punched Accel who was amped BW. Sub-rel combat speed for Touma?

As for his WW
You can't argue against this. This is how the story present it. Accel stopped Fiamma's attack, but was OHKO'ed
the logic is quite simple
the falling golden mass from the heaven would cause an explosion that could cover at least the whole Eurasia, which would be 4.435 Petatons of TNT (look at DT's comment for the calc)
Accel clashed with it while the falling golden mass was far above the sky, 8000 meters of altitude
Accel survived it though it did knocked him out
WW Accel's raw dura (as in his body) = 4.435 Petatons of TNT

and the narration itself stated that the only reason that he was left was because it was stopped at the last second-which, by order of events, is Touma negating Holy Right and destroying its physical form.

You can't argue against this. This is how the story present it. Accel stopped Fiamma's attack, but was OHKO'ed and would've died if Touma didn't unknowingly help him via negating HR
HR is irrelevant here when the Telesma drop itself was from the heaven and not from Fiamma's 3rd arm. Sure his HR was weakened, but Heaven was still opened in the end and dropped a Telesma with enough energy to cover an entire Eurasia in an explosion.

“Just so you know, I did not use this. This is the result you all brought upon yourselves.”

“What…?”

“I did not obtain anyone else’s help. Time was simply on my side,” Fiamma said.

He had not opened the gate of heaven. He was simply such a holy existence that the world around him changed to become like heaven.

The change had continued with time and it had now passed a certain line.

“It was originally supposed to change bit by bit in stages, but this ‘virtue’ continually prevented that from happening. As a result, an unnatural distortion was created between the heavens and the earth similar to power being stored up within a bent continental plate.”

Even then, a massive amount of power was flowing into the Star of Bethlehem. If that exceeded the limit of what the fortress could hold, it would no longer be able to hold back the amount left over.

“As a result, the heavens are filled with Telesma while the earth is not. That massive power will now rain down like the flowing of an electric current. …Simply put, the earth will be filled with light. It is via a different route than I had intended, but the result will be the same. The change is still continuing in this world.”

“Do you understand what is going to happen?” Kamijou said while grinding his teeth. “That’s a huge mass of the same energy that makes up an angel’s body. If that falls down to the earth, a ridiculously huge explosion will spread across the surface before any kind of change can take place!! It was the same with Misha during Angel Fall. If power that massive is allowed to rage without being controlled, it could easily destroy all of human civilization!!”

“Yes, it is unfortunate, but only for you. Given the amount of power, at least the entire continent of Eurasia will be enveloped by the light.

Neutral on removing H1-C from Accelerator's Durability. I feel like you can say the same thing for characters who can amp their dura via magic or telekinetic users who can defend themselves with their TK.

For Accel's keys, I'm going neutral for now.
 
For his BW

Looking back at the fight, I find the battle was simply odd in general tbh. This was the same Accelerator whose speed was comparable with Gabriel and Kazakiri, even without his BW and yet Touma with his peak human speed was able to tag and punched Accel who was amped BW. Sub-rel combat speed for Touma?
That fight is ****ing weird and is a massive mess to consider in the scaling to the point that it destroys it (and the entire narrative of the series) if we take it by face value, tbh.

... But it is still the only fight that BW!Accel has ever gotten that wasn't a one-sided stomp like when the BW showed up against Amata and Kakine and actually gotten harmed by attacks. So this fight is legit the only thing we can pull for the wings's durability besides Index's statement.
Neutral on removing H1-C from Accelerator's Durability. I feel like you can say the same thing for characters who can amp their dura via magic or telekinetic users who can defend themselves with their TK.
... It's hax. The things you mention-amp dura via magic or telekinetic user who can defend with TK-are using something that abides by conventional durability-while Accelerator's vector shield just reflects crud away from him without letting it touch him, which isn't conventional durability last time I checked.
As for his WW

the logic is quite simple
the falling golden mass from the heaven would cause an explosion that could cover at least the whole Eurasia, which would be 4.435 Petatons of TNT (look at DT's comment for the calc)
Accel clashed with it while the falling golden mass was far above the sky, 8000 meters of altitude
Accel survived it though it did knocked him out
WW Accel's raw dura (as in his body) = 4.435 Petatons of TNT


HR is irrelevant here when the Telesma drop itself was from the heaven and not from Fiamma's 3rd arm. Sure his HR was weakened, but Heaven was still opened in the end and dropped a Telesma with enough energy to cover an entire Eurasia in an explosion.

“Just so you know, I did not use this. This is the result you all brought upon yourselves.”

“What…?”

“I did not obtain anyone else’s help. Time was simply on my side,” Fiamma said.

He had not opened the gate of heaven. He was simply such a holy existence that the world around him changed to become like heaven.

The change had continued with time and it had now passed a certain line.

“It was originally supposed to change bit by bit in stages, but this ‘virtue’ continually prevented that from happening. As a result, an unnatural distortion was created between the heavens and the earth similar to power being stored up within a bent continental plate.”

Even then, a massive amount of power was flowing into the Star of Bethlehem. If that exceeded the limit of what the fortress could hold, it would no longer be able to hold back the amount left over.

“As a result, the heavens are filled with Telesma while the earth is not. That massive power will now rain down like the flowing of an electric current. …Simply put, the earth will be filled with light. It is via a different route than I had intended, but the result will be the same. The change is still continuing in this world.”

“Do you understand what is going to happen?” Kamijou said while grinding his teeth. “That’s a huge mass of the same energy that makes up an angel’s body. If that falls down to the earth, a ridiculously huge explosion will spread across the surface before any kind of change can take place!! It was the same with Misha during Angel Fall. If power that massive is allowed to rage without being controlled, it could easily destroy all of human civilization!!”

“Yes, it is unfortunate, but only for you. Given the amount of power, at least the entire continent of Eurasia will be enveloped by the light.
...
Neither Last Order nor Misaka Worst was there. Only the white snow stretched on seemingly forever around him. At an altitude of 8000 meters, he had been struck by the mass of strange energy fired by the fortress, but not even he really understood what had happened after that. The white wings had disappeared from his back. At the very least, he understood that he was alive like that because the great destruction had been stopped at the last second.
Accelerator's thoughts makes it very, very clear, and the implications that it gives are made even clearer. The only reason he was still alive-and just left knocked out atop of a hill before he woke up-is because something stopped Fiamma's attack at the last second.The only thing that this could be is Touma destroying Holy Right. Or it could be the world rejecting Fiamma or smth else. Either one works, lel.

Most importantly, though... Last time I checked if one is left out of commission for a large length of time from an attack and the only reason one is still alive is due to outside interference, that is an immediate disqualification for durability scaling in any sense.

Also, also. This makes the rock that Touma used against WW!Accel H6-A, or makes Touma be able to produce H6-A SS when hitting people with a rock, imao.

... Actually now that I think about it... Fiamma's attack is a huge **** off explosion and Accelerator is just 1.68m tall person. Thus through the rules of inverse square law and surface area crud, WW!Accelerator's body would only experience just a very, very tiny fraction of Fiamma's eurasia buster.
 
... It's hax. The things you mention-amp dura via magic or telekinetic user who can defend with TK-are using something that abides by conventional durability-while Accelerator's vector shield just reflects crud away from him without letting it touch him, which isn't conventional durability last time I checked.
It's pretty much same as barriers, accelerator's vector shield may not be conventional durability, but it still protects him from any conventional source of attack.

It's pretty much same as character like Doctor Strange who have a additional rating for their durability with their magic barriers.

And it also fits the sites defination of durability.

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks.
 
... How did you... I... Anyways...

Accelerator's Vector Shield is literal just attack reflection hax. No more, no less.

Doctor Strange's barriers/shield are, even if they are magic-based, are still barriers/shield that can be broken through if they are forced to face an attack that overcomes what they are shown to be able to withstand.

Accelerator's Vector Shield-when it isn't faced with things that aren't outside the laws of conventional phyics or outright alien to him-doesn't hold such a limit and can't be bypassed through exceeding a "limit". Ergo, it shouldn't be listed in the durability section in the first place.
 
I disagree with reflection not being listed in the durability section. It is effectively that and much more informative for the reader to have it listed there. It's similar to how some characters have something like "regeneration makes them hard to kill" listed to point out how some particular ability makes them in practice far more durable than the rating suggests. We do the same with passive forcefields above the tier as well, e.g. Eragon.

What the whole backwards scaling is concerned: It is true that at the time the statement was made he was weaker. Anything beyond that is speculative backwards scaling. It doesn't at all go against the narrative that Accelerator is stronger later on. That is assuming that Esper abilities are 100% determined by calculation which is provably wrong.
This is related to the Personal Reality that is the fundamental law behind the manifestation of esper powers. Espers create the phenomena they wish for by focusing on making the impossible possible with their own power and by understanding, calculating, and naturally expressing the phenomena as “reality”. How well they can grasp these absurd phenomena in their Personal Reality is what determines an esper's evaluation. And that is what creates the barrier between Level 3 and Level 4.

Accelerator and Misaka Mikoto gained such high level powers because they both have strong minds and firm ideologies and principles. You could say their powers manifested in them because they knew they should.
It's stated both in general and explicitely for Accelerator that their esper power's strength are also influenced by other factors.
Accelerator unlocked two super modes (black and white wings) and did so specifically due to ideological and emotional factors. It's weird to think that he can not have grown in base, when we clearly see growth in general.
Honestly, there are more arguments, but I may as well just link to the whole thread where it was decided that we don't backwards scale him.
In simple terms, you need an actual statement saying that he didn't get stronger at the time you want to backwards scale.
 
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Accelerator's Vector Shield-when it isn't faced with things that aren't outside the laws of conventional phyics or outright alien to him-doesn't hold such a limit and can't be bypassed through exceeding a "limit". Ergo, it shouldn't be listed in the durability section in the first place.
It's just that Vector Redirection has attack reflection attribute, doesn't mean it's not durability, isn't it? If we remove the attack reflection tho, it's still working as durability, as the attack can't breakthrough.
 
I have yet to read all posts, I am read the OP and will be commenting mainly on it and I also read DT's post and at the end I will say what I think we should do (which I pretty much explained in the other thread, but now is the official versuon ig).

Thus, I propose the following;

The AP of Accelerator's first key should scale above Second and Third keys, for obvious reasons. I also propose that Accelerator's Post-Headshot Key and Post-Aiwass Key (and the abilities the keys possess) should be merged, as Accelerator acquiring information of the laws behind magic and its existence isn't stated-either explicitly or implicitly-to have increase the strength or potency of Accelerator's power and only just broaden Accelerator's knowledge of the verse, and the keys themselves only exist to "stop" back scaling.
I agree with merging Post-Headshot and Post-Aiwass, for those not aware this key is based on the idea that the fight with Aiwass could have given Accel some sort of boost due to the all out fight and near death state he was left into, while these things do kind of strengthen espers it's not such a direct nor consistent thing that we should arbitrarily assume when it is giving a whole tier jump to someone.

Fixing Stats for Accelerator's Wings
Starting with Accelerator's Black Wings "form"... This form's durability comes from a statement from a character named Index, who stated Accelerator was containing so much power that she wasn't sure a Saint could handle it all. The issue is that Saints gain their power through special bodily characteristics and idol theory (verse's magic system) but they have an inherent issue of only being able to manage a small portion of their power lest their bodies' self-destruct due to the strain. However, Accelerator doesn't hold any bodily characteristics that allows him to use his power to enhance his physicals like Saints nor is it even ever implied that he has access to a UES that allows him to enhance his physicals through a unique energy source like other verses like Dragon Ball, and so on. So his durability shouldn't scale to the power/AP of his wings. But it does heightened Accelerator's durability to a "higher" but "unknown" degree, therefore, its durability should be rated as "higher" instead of anything solid. AP will still be kept the same, however.
This is wrong, there is no need about needing special body traits or a UES to get higher stats from a transformation, the whole premise here makes no sense.
  • Want to point out the slight dishonesty on Black Wings's durability section, before I move on. It has this (Index stated that not even a Saint would have been able to handle the power flowing through his body) but as my scan (and the scan in Accelerator's profile) shows, Index only stated that she was not sure if a Saint could handle his power not that she was sure a saint's body couldn't handle his power at all, which is the sentiment Accelerator's current durability justification pushes.
For his Wing Wings... In this form, Accelerator's durability is stated to have stopped and survived an attack that would've destroyed Eurasia. This is true. In a sense. Because it is leaving out the detail that Accelerator was immediately knocked out upon colliding with the attack and stayed unconscious atop a hill for a long time, in addition, Accelerator stated that the only reason he was alive like this-collapsed atop a hill-was because this Eurasia Buster had been stopped at the last second. Therefore, WW!Accelerator's Durability can't scale to this feat, and should be listen as "higher"... for obvious reasons that I don't need to repeat.
In my opinion you're just basing this on wrong takes about how abd why things scale as well as not understanding the full picture regarding Accel's dura.

1 - even if not directly stated, the quote about "more power than Saints can handle" is literally alluding to what your body can handle by using Saints as the example, Index has already seen high level spells that don't give any burden to your body so the quote doesn't even make sense if it's not about "body strength", as there simply isn't a limit of "power" you can have outside of your body at all in the entire series AFAIK.

2 - it's proven in that same volume that the Wings give him extra dura, otherwise he couldn't have tanked the grenade, so the entire idea of "Accel can't raise his dura because no UES, special body" or whatever makes no sense to begin with.

3 - it's consistent as the White Wings did the same against the H6A attack, and Touma damaging him literally just means IB nulled the energy for the moment Touma punched, nothing more, nothing less.

4 - the only part I agree with is that directly scaling to the H6A attack should be removed, due to things like surface area, the duration of the "clash" and the final result with Accel being KOed, he was clearly strong enough to survive (a 9B human wouldn't survive that at all, regardless of surface area) so the White Wings should simply scale to the Black ones (i.e Saint Level) and that's it.
Removing H1-C from Accelerator's Durability
If you take a look at Accelerator's profile, you'll see that Accelerator's Vector Shield is rated H1-C. Issue, however... Accelerator's Vector Shield just reflects things away from him via Vector Manipulation, so... Um... It should not be listed in his durability section, nuff said.

... I don't need to explain this any further, right? Accelerator's Vector Shield doesn't hold any of the traditional qualities of conventional durability, and is more so a barrier protecting him from harm-therefore, it shouldn't be listed or mentioned in Accelerator's durability, and should have this note at the bottom of his profile;

Or something like this, idk. I can rework this note to make it sound better.
Votes
[Agree:]
[Disagree:]
[Neutral:]
I am neutral on removing the H1C, it's hax so I don't think it has to be given a tier but unlike other H1C things in the verse this one doesn't give a wrong idea of how things work (like the stupid H1C AP for Touma).

As for the keys:

Pre-Headshot
Post-Headshot
Post-Black Wings
Post-White Wings
Post-Clonoth

Why? As DT explained, Esper powers aren't as simple as Calculation power, that's an important aspect but as Amata implies when seeing the Black Wings, they are a result of a change in Accel's Personal Reality, which is at the end of the day the real source of his power, Calcs are the medium through which espers change and alter the world, but the PR is the entire base for it.

No, we don't have enough explanations about the origin and consequences of the Wings, but this is the only way to give keys to Accel that are based on some sort of growth.
 
Back. Been busy. Sorta. Getting some stuff in order and kinda got dragged back into a series I liked awhile so been reading quite a bit, imao


Onto things on hand, though.

Hm. Seems to been a disagreement on backscaling, sorta. Noir's suggestion of making 5 keys - Pre-Headshot, Post-Headshot, Post-Black Wings, Post-White Wings and Post-Clonoth - seems to be more reasonable to me after taking into consideration of what DT has said.

Granted, I would change the names to match the arc names to, well...

Pre-Three Stories (Pre-Headshot) [Starts from Sister Arc and ends at... well... Three Stories Arc], Post-Three Stories (Post-Headshot) [Starts at the end of Three Stories Arc/Accelerator manga and ends at Academy City Invasion arc], Post-Academy City Invasion (Post-Black Wings) [Starts at the end of Academy City Invasion and ends right before the end of the WWIII arc and before the White Wings], Post-World War III (Post-White Wings) [Starts at NT1 and ends at NT20] and Post-Coronzon Arc (Post-Clonoth) [NT21 to Current]

Naming the keys just by the color of Accelerator's Wings (and the random "tree" he planted) and ignoring the canon arc names we can instead name them after is just tacky, imo. Better suggestions can be thrown this way for names for the keys, though.

Also, I need suggestions for scaling-but if enough people are okay with keeping the current scaling, I can drop this.

.... BTW, I'm also still sticking with removing Accel's High 1-C durability. As again... That is literally just attack reflection.

Also, honestly, I have my own doubts that what Coronzon threw at Accel was flaming sword-she didn't do the movements attributed to the spell, the chant she used in that moment is massively different then the one she used for Touma, Aleister and Touma again, she didn't call out the name nor did the narration mention it by name, she did not she get momentarily stunned afterwards as seen with Aleister after using it and if she had access to a quick-fire Flaming Sword it would be entirely out of character for her to not use it against anyone. But this is just my opinion, so you can ignore this.
 
It's just that Vector Redirection has attack reflection attribute, doesn't mean it's not durability, isn't it? If we remove the attack reflection tho, it's still working as durability, as the attack can't breakthrough.
What?

This doesn't make any sense at all, remove the attack reflection attribute and all attacks go through, just read any of Accel's fights. The Vector Shield isn't physical, it doesn't block things so no it's not durability either.
 
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Naming the keys just by the color of Accelerator's Wings (and the random "tree" he planted) and ignoring the canon arc names we can instead name them after is just tacky, imo. Better suggestions can be thrown this way for names for the keys, though.
I think no Toaru profile has key names based on the arc it's introduced so it wouldn't be consistent with how Toaru is indexed.

It's possible to change his BW key to Post Awakening or something like that and maybe do something like that for WW key, but I just don't see any reason to name it after the story arcs.
 
The Vector Shield isn't physical, it doesn't block things so no it's not durability either.
It doesn't need to be physical. The site treats anything that can or help withstand a certain amount of force as durability.

While vector shield may not be conventional durability, it still fits the necessary criteria. Oh and it works against any conventional means of damage too.

It's similar scenario as to barriers or regen, they enhance a characters durability in a way, while not actually making them themselves more durable.

Also It's something that can be given a tier to cause of how it works or rather how we treat it.
 
I think no Toaru profile has key names based on the arc it's introduced so it wouldn't be consistent with how Toaru is indexed.

It's possible to change his BW key to Post Awakening or something like that and maybe do something like that for WW key, but I just don't see any reason to name it after the story arcs.
Well, then... Accelerator can be the first, ze... More seriously, though, isn't that moreso because it is very rare for a character that isn't a main protag or main antag to have multiple keys considering how Kamachi likes to sideline old characters in favor for the new.

Moreover... In other verses with named story arcs, isn't it standard to name "new keys" by the arc name in where they are relevant or smth along those lines? If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

I do also want to repeat that I just find naming Accelerator's "new keys" by the color of his wings to be tacky and lame, tbh. And naming them by the story arcs in where they are relevant is the only thing they came to me.
It doesn't need to be physical. The site treats anything that can or help withstand a certain amount of force as durability.

While vector shield may not be conventional durability, it still fits the necessary criteria. Oh and it works against any conventional means of damage too.

It's similar scenario as to barriers or regen, they enhance a characters durability in a way, while not actually making them themselves more durable.

Also It's something that can be given a tier to cause of how it works or rather how we treat it.
Wouldn't that just mean that it would just make more sense to remove the H1-C rating and replace it with, "Reflection makes it difficult to harm Accelerator conventionally" or something like that? Again, Accelerator's reflection isn't reducing or negating the damage, it is just redirecting it something else entirely.

Like... wouldn't the damage reduction that Accelerator showcased when Gabriel's danmaku bypassed his reflection fit the "bill" here more then reflection?
The night sky was filled with flashing lights.
There was no time to be amazed at the spectacle, however.
Within a radius of two kilometers, tens of millions of fiery meteors of destruction rained
down.
This was a divine punishment, one that Accelerator’s absolute reflection could not hope
to counter.
“Wha-what?!”
Accelerator was unable to respond.
To dodge or to try and take the attack head on? Before Accelerator could fully consider
his options, the maelstrom of destruction was already upon him. Accelerator could no
longer tell the sky from the ground. In the moment that he was hit by the attack, his
body was flung ferociously around like a rag doll. Although Accelerator was able to
lessen the damage by manipulating the vectors, he still tasted blood. Snow, dirt and
sand were all tossed up by the attack, filling Accelerator’s vision with a blur of white.
“This... This is...!?”
As Accelerator was hurled towards the ground, he gasped for breath, but no sound came
out. His throat was blocked. Accelerator was able to clear the congealed blood from his
throat using his ability, and was finally able to breathe.
(****...!! What the **** was that!?)
The massive amounts of snow and dirt tossed up by the attack filled the entire sky.
In this panorama of white, there was only one other color. A glow of blue, radiating from
the archangel of destruction.

- Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 21, Chapter 8 Part 7

So maybe something like; (Insert Tier Here) with Vector Manipulation (Allowed Accelerator to survive Gabriel's Sweep through lessening the damage by manipulating the vectors)... or something like this?

^ TLDR: The damage reduction that Accel showcased in his fight against Gabriel, which allowed him to survive danmaku from Sweep, fits the requirements of being listed in Accel's dura section more then reflection. Since it allowed him to take hit in the first place while reflection forgo that entirely.
 
It doesn't need to be physical. The site treats anything that can or help withstand a certain amount of force as durability.
It... really does not, you don't see characters get durability via portal creation or reality warping and things like that simply because they get attacks away from them

And like, literally, withstanding does bot apply to the Vector Shield, Accel does not withstand anything, the attacks don't even get to touch him to begin with.

While vector shield may not be conventional durability, it still fits the necessary criteria. Oh and it works against any conventional means of damage too.
There is no "conventional durability", wtf? Either it's durability or it isn't.
It's similar scenario as to barriers or regen, they enhance a characters durability in a way, while not actually making them themselves more durable.
Not similar at all, first because characters don't get tiers for their regen and other immortalities, at best it's noted that "harder to kill due to xyz)

As for barriers, yeah man, they have durability because they are actually solid and actually tank things, Accel literally uses reality warping.

Also It's something that can be given a tier to cause of how it works or rather how we treat it.
As I said before I couldn't care less about if we keep it or not, but since you're saying this, give me a single other example of a character that gets a separate durability rating because they have a form of hax protecting them, if you can fo that we keep Accel as he is for consistency sake.


Well, then... Accelerator can be the first, ze... More seriously, though, isn't that moreso because it is very rare for a character that isn't a main protag or main antag to have multiple keys considering how Kamachi likes to sideline old characters in favor for the new.
Ehhh, Acqua has 3, Brunhild and Thor have 2, Gabriel has 3

Technically for Gabriel only one is the name if the arc, as there isn't a short way to explain what changes fron the AF summon ritual to the WW3 summon ritual, meanwhile Acqua's 3rd key is also better being named as "Post-WW3" than something like "Post-Losing Saint and God's Right Seat Powers", not even including how "with Ascalon" being a key name is strange.
Moreover... In other verses with named story arcs, isn't it standard to name "new keys" by the arc name in where they are relevant or smth along those lines? If I am wrong feel free to correct me.
Not necessarily, key names will either point at what is included in the key (such as Naruto's many keys in most of his profiles) or will be named after the power up they received (look at Luffy's profile, his 3 lastest keys are named after specific things that made him stronger).

I'd say it's really more about what makes more sense with how the scaling and the power ups in-verse work rather than "this is the standard and correct way", and in this case as the amount of keys isn't based on the arcs themselves in the same way OP or Naruto work, for example, it's better to name it after the actual forms/power ups Accel received

Again, we can name it Post Awakening and things like that, idrc.
I do also want to repeat that I just find naming Accelerator's "new keys" by the color of his wings to be tacky and lame, tbh. And naming them by the story arcs in where they are relevant is the only thing they came to me.
Fair enough.
 
Since we're on the topic, can someone explain to me what the Post-Aiwass and Post-Qliphah Puzzle 545 keys mean as far as this increase in Vector Control AP indicated on the profile currently?
 
Since we're on the topic, can someone explain to me what the Post-Aiwass and Post-Qliphah Puzzle 545 keys mean as far as this increase in Vector Control AP indicated on the profile currently?
If I am not misunderstanding you, well... Post-Aiwass assumes Accelerator got stronger after getting his ass kicked by Aiwass and the two-or-so weeks that he spent getting to Russia with a sick Last Order the time period of this key extends to OT19 all the way to end of NT20; Post-Qliphah assumes Accelerator got stronger after he acquired his trash daughter/pseudo-stand/chairman shit and it extends from NT21 all the way to current volume.
 
If I am not misunderstanding you, well... Post-Aiwass assumes Accelerator got stronger after getting his ass kicked by Aiwass and the two-or-so weeks that he spent getting to Russia with a sick Last Order the time period of this key extends to OT19 all the way to end of NT20; Post-Qliphah assumes Accelerator got stronger after he acquired his trash daughter/pseudo-stand/chairman shit and it extends from NT21 all the way to current volume.
Assumes?
 
are we just guessing.
Yes and no, it's based on the fact he fought stronger opponents after these events (6B and 5B opponents, respectively) with the amp itself being the most likely thing to amp his esper powers.

Direct evidence? No
Guessing? Not really, I'd say it's more like conjecture.
 
Yes and no, it's based on the fact he fought stronger opponents after these events (6B and 5B opponents, respectively) with the amp itself being the most likely thing to amp his esper powers.

Direct evidence? No
Guessing? Not really, I'd say it's more like conjecture.
Technically, these issues could be solved.

If Misaka's Esper Power AP could simply scales below to 6B tierer via her fight with Brunhild (as somewhat controversial that idea is), it would avoid the idea that Accelerator's Esper power got buffed despite his brain damage altogether since he scales above her due to repeatedly being called the strongest in Academy City and all that.

For the 5-B, er... Could be possible that TMGs like Neph have separated durability like other magicians - i.e, they have a lower base dura rating and they have a 5-B with magic dura rating - which could explain away how Accelerator tore her to pieces. Or smth.

Will not lie. Am putting this out of my bum, atm, imao.
 
Yes and no, it's based on the fact he fought stronger opponents after these events (6B and 5B opponents, respectively) with the amp itself being the most likely thing to amp his esper powers.

Direct evidence? No
Guessing? Not really, I'd say it's more like conjecture.
Fighting opponents stronger than previous opponents alone doesn't seem indicative of an amp. For example, the Post Aiwass key seems to indicate his active Vector Control power somehow increased from Aiwass (OT19), but we have textual evidence in OT22 his Vector Control is still inferior to his original specs. It's known I disagree with how that entire profile is set up, but I'm just saying if we're going with "he got amps" the key naming doesn't make much sense imo.
 
Fighting opponents stronger than previous opponents alone doesn't seem indicative of an amp. For example, the Post Aiwass key seems to indicate his active Vector Control power somehow increased from Aiwass (OT19), but we have textual evidence in OT22 his Vector Control is still inferior to his original specs. It's known I disagree with how that entire profile is set up, but I'm just saying if we're going with "he got amps" the key naming doesn't make much sense imo.
Yes, now you get why we're doing a thread to change that in the first place, what I said before is literally the outdated reasoning, if it was 100% this thread wouldn't happen.

For the 5-B, er... Could be possible that TMGs like Neph have separated durability like other magicians - i.e, they have a lower base dura rating and they have a 5-B with magic dura rating - which could explain away how Accelerator tore her to pieces. Or smth.
We can change things like that when we do the 5B thread, this thread isn't for that.
 
Ye, I know. Again, I was just pulling that out from my bum.

So... What's the solution here, scaling-wise?

The amount of keys needed isn't too important now, and moreso, um... How should we rate Accelerator's AP? Everything prior to London is 6-B? Every key is 5-B? Or, as a extreme option, do we forgo giving Accelerator's Vector Manip a solid AP rating and instead assign it a varies rating?

IDK, I have no idea what to do here, any suggestions would do to help.
 
Ye, I know. Again, I was just pulling that out from my bum.

So... What's the solution here, scaling-wise?

The amount of keys needed isn't too important now, and moreso, um... How should we rate Accelerator's AP? Everything prior to London is 6-B? Every key is 5-B? Or, as a extreme option, do we forgo giving Accelerator's Vector Manip a solid AP rating and instead assign it a varies rating?
Everything is 6B, that's pretty much it.

Every key being 5B is a no, changing his profile to be just a Varies (Wings aside) is a possibility we can look more into the future but I'd say it's too big of a change to not have its own thread.
 
Everything is 6B, that's pretty much it.

Every key being 5B is a no, changing his profile to be just a Varies (Wings aside) is a possibility we can look more into the future but I'd say it's too big of a change to not have its own thread.
Gotcha, I'll consider that as a vote. Of sorts. Will wait for whatever else ideas anybody in this thread has.
 
Gotcha, I'll consider that as a vote. Of sorts. Will wait for whatever else ideas anybody in this thread has.
If I got everything right a theoretical Post BW key and a Post WW key would have the same tiers, right?

If that's the case, we can instead just sum them in a single key, like Post Awakening as I said before or something similar, but Post-Clonoth should keep that name as... well, that's the power up he got.
 
If I got everything right a theoretical Post BW key and a Post WW key would have the same tiers, right?

If that's the case, we can instead just sum them in a single key, like Post Awakening as I said before or something similar, but Post-Clonoth should keep that name as... well, that's the power up he got.
I can accept that.
 
Wait. Scratch that. A bit. I now think we should "re-name" Post-Clonoth to something else to also include the stuff from Qliphah Puzzle 545 and the stuff he got after Aleister made him chairman of academy city since it is equally important to him as the Clonoth stuff and he got all of that stuff at relatively the same timeframe.

Imo, it being named Post-London works best.
 
Wait. Scratch that. A bit. I now think we should "re-name" Post-Clonoth to something else to also include the stuff from Qliphah Puzzle 545 and the stuff he got after Aleister made him chairman of academy city since it is equally important to him as the Clonoth stuff and he got all of that stuff at relatively the same timeframe.

Imo, it being named Post-London works best.
What he got from Aleister is not important from a scaling perspective, like, he got a laser and that's it.

Anyway, Post-London isn't a good name IMO.
 
eh
there's also Flower Resistance besides the electro beam laser
and from the page, it has a possibly rating to be saint level or tier 6-B bor being a threat to Elizard
but that's it ig

so, how are the name for Accelerator's keys looking like?
Pre-Headshot | Post-Headshot | Post-Awakaneing | Post-Qliphah | Post-Clonoth/London
like these?
 
What he got from Aleister is not important from a scaling perspective, like, he got a laser and that's it.

Anyway, Post-London isn't a good name IMO.
It is important from a story perspective, however. Considering it lead him to becoming chairman of academy city and stuck him in prison.

I'm still still sticking with Post-London, heck, I can settle for Post-Coronzon, but I still think Post-Clonoth is a bad key name but if enough people want to still go with that name, I'll go along with it.

On a side note, I am wondering why the heck doesn't Accelerator's 5B key powers and abilities doesn't have any of Puzzle's stuff considering that she is basically Accelerator's stand at this point and she hasn't lost any of the abilities that she'd showcased previously iirc. Oh, well. Future CRT stuff, I guess.
 
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