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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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Accel's logic makes sense.
I'd prefer Curtana to get debunked and addressed properly before we come to any conclusions. I don't really agree with Bennet's solution personally since the only real debates here to counter evidence is 'they're vague'.
I'd prefer Curtana to get debunked and addressed properly before we come to any conclusions. I don't really agree with Bennet's solution personally since the only real debates here to counter evidence is 'they're vague'.
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Every space cutting sword can cut through anything. Curtana would accomplish that by even just cutting through 3 dimensions.Accel0305 said:
That the higher-dimension cutting sword can cut through anything doesn't mean that that has to do with higher orders of infinity. Especially if one considers that said sword can be stopped by High 6-C cutting magic.
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I think you're confusing the slicing effect for the actual physical sword? You can come into contact with the sword itself, the hilt and the shards but you can't defend against the slicing effect. Same reason that when Accel shot a rock at the sword it didn't immediately split apart when they collided. Not really comparable, but correct me if I'm wrong.
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@DT That's only because there's an inconsistency created by clashes from magic that do the same thing in index. Even then Yuisen doesn't actually stop the all dimensional severing phenomena from perforating all dimensions. The inconsistency is with the spatial cutting/shichiten due to both having the "cut through anything" param. One thing to point out though is Kanzaki and co were unable to actually slice or destroy the debris. Only Dimensional cutting could achieve that.
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DT makes sense. The feat isn't proof of infinitely higher dimensionals. Saying that the only way it can be achieved is through your interpretation is objectively incorrect.
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No ones been arguing infinitely higher dimensions in this thread.
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I don't wanna be rude Matt, but you should take the time to read over things before coming to an immediate conclusion, otherwise you'll have holes. Don't rush to an answer, and better yet, don't butt in to conversations you aren't familiar with. Let DT talk this out. We've also not been arguing infinitely higher in this thread for days now as stated quite a few times.
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You are being rude. All you're doing is miconstructing my position but outright stating that I'm dumb, that I"m not reading anything, that I'm ignoring, that I'm "butting in" conversations, and whatnot. All that's happening here is a collective attempt to silence and shame any oposition.
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I think you're blowing this out of proportions since you clearly said something wrong. We weren't arguing higher dimensions so what you said was just invalid. Essetionally, you were agreeing to nothing that was there.
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DT actually didn't say anything about the size tho
and at this point matt u are simply ignoring other points, in fact u are still arguing about infinity when we said already we don't exactly know if it's infinite, but we can give a minimum size thanks to the dimensional debris and the max possible size it could have (something even lazy hunter pointed out)
and again we know for certain the 4 th dimension contains 4 dimensional object same for the 5th and so on so
and at this point matt u are simply ignoring other points, in fact u are still arguing about infinity when we said already we don't exactly know if it's infinite, but we can give a minimum size thanks to the dimensional debris and the max possible size it could have (something even lazy hunter pointed out)
and again we know for certain the 4 th dimension contains 4 dimensional object same for the 5th and so on so
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The thread has admittedly gone on long enough, and I still think DT and Ultima make the most sense. But guys, please stop fighting each other.
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DT makes the most sense? How? Dude didn't even really say much and got debunked immediately. Could you explain your reasoning? Ultima also thinks that ToAru can apply for higher dimensions, he just thinks they're vague.
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Low 1-C true magic gods seems fone
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He has the right to disagree with you and agree with DT you know? Simply insisting that DT is wrong and immediately debunked doesn't help anyone's case.Accelerate420 said:
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Everyone has a right to agree or disagree. You're right!
But reasonings should be stated behind why you agree or disagree with someone or something. If you're agreeing with something that's clearly already been debunked or corrected, you make yourself kinda look bad. It's just helpful to understand the reasoning so we can better come to a conclusion rather than spin ourselves in circles like this. Nothing gets done because of this approach.
But reasonings should be stated behind why you agree or disagree with someone or something. If you're agreeing with something that's clearly already been debunked or corrected, you make yourself kinda look bad. It's just helpful to understand the reasoning so we can better come to a conclusion rather than spin ourselves in circles like this. Nothing gets done because of this approach.
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Let's try to not fall into some problematics situation, if i've understood correctly:
- The Argument in favor to keep the current tiering is about the Curtana, the weapon can cut dimension and according to the argument above, he is able to cut every existing dimension in Toaruverse (or at least an higher dimension than the usual). the effect of cutting higher dimensional structure is leaving lower dimensional debrits just like when curtana cutted the four dimension, it leaved three dimensional debrits, yes? and due to that, the existence of higher dimension in the sense of infinitely higher interpretation is confirmed, right?
- The Detractors arguments is basically the need of concrete proof of the existence of higher dimensional stuff and that curtana cut dimensions of the sense of higher plans and not mathematics, the fact that the mentionned existing dimension (so the 11) are only coordonate and basically involve directional dimension and not infinitely higher, right too?
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Gotcha, but now that the new system is done, the tiering via dimension has changed, now Directional dimension =/= higher dimension of the way of infinitely higher than the currents, from the quote aboves, Toaru use 11 Dimension coordonate to teleport ect, and this Math Dimensions (dimensions in a way of directional space), those kind of cosmology is no longer applicable for tier 1.TIHYDDWBE said:
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So, weeks of arguments, and we're still stuck at Curtana?
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We've already discussed these points above. Dimensions aren't just directional axis manipulated by teleporters, they also hold higher dimensional material which can be severed anywhere in the universe and are also one of the fundamental aspects used by magic gods to manipulate the entire world. Qualitatively manipulation of higher dimensions can bypass causality laws as explained above.
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@StrongClick The quote indeed talk above the 11 dimensions but those dimension are designated as axis of space which is, not warrant for Tier 1 since they don't exist in an higher plane of existence, their Universe just has 11 Dimensional axis. so you need to prove the number of higher dimensions (in the way of infinitely higher), those 11 aren't higher D.
And this blog basically said my thought, the Dimension Clarissa cut with Curtana aren't the same as the 11 designated dimension, but this time probably higher D.
And this blog basically said my thought, the Dimension Clarissa cut with Curtana aren't the same as the 11 designated dimension, but this time probably higher D.
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Like I said in my previous post dimensions aren't just directional axis used by teleporter calculations, they contai higher dimensional objects. We are proving due to Curtana mechanics that they are not of Non-significant size which also qualifies for tier 1 in new system as well as the qualitative factor between dimensions as shown that manipulating higher dimensions can overcome fate and causality of lower D's.
They are the same dimensions, where are you getting that they aren't from???
They are the same dimensions, where are you getting that they aren't from???
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I don't see what your posts above is supposed to show that those 11 Dimensional axis countain higher-D objects, the fact is, Curtana's cutting feat cut Higher-D, not those 11 by the simple fact that their nature aren't the same, you can't link both without statement that those higher dimension are indeed the 11D axis (by nature they can't even by linked), overcoming fate and causality isn't really a proof of higher-D. i don't doubt the verse have higher D due to curtana's feat, but not the 11 Designated D probably 5 at best with this feat.StrongClick said:
>They are the same dimensions, where are you getting that they aren't from???
Due to the fact that the 11D are spatial axis, they are not higher D in the sense of the new system allow you to be tier 1 (being infinitely higher/transcendant you know)
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x_x They are literally the same dimensions.
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Higher Dimensions and "Higher Dimensional Debree" are meaningless in the context of the new tiering system. This ain't 2016 anymore.TIHYDDWBE said:
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Not if cross-section spawning prove Noninsignifigant dimension size.
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Are u still going about that ? Nobody is saying just having 11 dimension is enough, we are literally saying it might be infinite although we have no full proof BUT we know the minimum size, but we don't know if by ultima tiering that size count for the tier 1 or lowerMatthew Schroeder said:
and the debris simply shows there are higher dimensional objects in higher dimensional space as they literally are
"Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this."
The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder.
She was not attacking.
Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet.
"This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a 3 dimensional world."
The All Dimensions Severing Spell is a spell that is unique to using the Curtana Original, and unlikely the Curtana Second as well. It is activated by merely swinging the blade and apparently wanting it to happen. The effect of this is the creation or appearance of dimensional debris due to the cutting of dimensions.The dimensional debris is created by severing every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher or lower dimensions. These cross section objects, or dimensional debris, that are created appear as such, large white objects that look like uncolored plastic, despite the fact that it severs all dimensions is because humans can only perceive those that appear in a 3-dimensional world.
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I'm not gonna lie, there sure is a lot of people not reading what is being said right now.
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I'm curious as to which verses actually use dimensions this way that you are describing them, aside from maybe those very high into tier 1A (Marvel & DC, Umineko, Dies Irae, I/O), in which case they don't even call them dimensions; they use terms like being levels of infinity transcendentially higher than something, or existing on infintely higher planes of existence in relation to something. That's not dimensions in the conventional sense, so why term them as such? Why not say something like "This character is this level of infinity this high, and "this character is this level of infinity higher than this", so he/she is this "planes of existence" high, but not "dimensions". I seriouly doubt that your definition is what comes to the minds of many authors/writers/mangaka's whenever they use the term dimension in their works of fiction, because that term has a specific meaning. Either use "dimensions" correctly, or change the term you use to justify the tiers of characters/verses. I'd like to see verses that are actually High 1-C/1-B, and that actually use your statement/description of dimensions to justify this tiering, with real set number of dimensions, without throwing around statements like "infinitely higher" or "higher plane".The Causality said:
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@Accel The wording of higher dimension here mean that the verse posesseses Transcendental / infinitely higher / from higher plane ect. the verse need to prove those stuff to be in tier 1 now, that's why many High 1-C/1-B are being downgraded, that why the OP created this thread, for downgrading the verse due to some quote not involving the said dimensions, but the other definition of dimension in the way of dimensional axis which is, not warrant for tier 1
@TIHY i already know that, that why i've said that indeed, Curtana can cut higher-D in the way of transcendental dimension/above but this feat isn't related by the 11D stuff since those are treated like spatial axis.
@Strongclick If yes, some quotes are welcome, if you can find me quotes who talk about the fact that curtana can cut the 11 Dimensions / find statements that those 11D are indeed infinitely higher but not in the sense of Dimensional axis because for now, this blog mostly explain that those two stuff (11-D axis and Curtana's cutting feat) aren't related and talk about two different way of how the verse treat dimensions
And someone call DT and the little Ultima Reality, i think that this thread can't be concluded without their opinion.
@TIHY i already know that, that why i've said that indeed, Curtana can cut higher-D in the way of transcendental dimension/above but this feat isn't related by the 11D stuff since those are treated like spatial axis.
@Strongclick If yes, some quotes are welcome, if you can find me quotes who talk about the fact that curtana can cut the 11 Dimensions / find statements that those 11D are indeed infinitely higher but not in the sense of Dimensional axis because for now, this blog mostly explain that those two stuff (11-D axis and Curtana's cutting feat) aren't related and talk about two different way of how the verse treat dimensions
And someone call DT and the little Ultima Reality, i think that this thread can't be concluded without their opinion.
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Ultima said he's bored of this Thread tho
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Clearly some people are acting like dimensions are enough as of yet. Meanwhile, the cross section argument has already been addressed several times already, but you are all still going back to it over and over.
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Several verses have already gotten downgraded under the new tiering system and it's likely many more will.
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No one is acting like 'dimensions are enough' though. Why do you keep pushing this narrative?
@Causality you're LITERALLY ignoring quotes JUST posted by Malox and several in the thread. Are you serious right now? I hate to say this, but PLEASE read what is being posted. No one has said they're infinitly higher or arguing infinity. Quotes have already been provided. Take the time to read the thread.
This thread has become an ultimate shitshow where people keep trying to argue about what a side is arguing about when the otherside isn't even arguing to that point. There are more things that can qualify for High 1-C than infinity. Do I need to repost the definition again? I honestly think this thread should just be closed at this point in general, but that is not up to me.
@Causality you're LITERALLY ignoring quotes JUST posted by Malox and several in the thread. Are you serious right now? I hate to say this, but PLEASE read what is being posted. No one has said they're infinitly higher or arguing infinity. Quotes have already been provided. Take the time to read the thread.
This thread has become an ultimate shitshow where people keep trying to argue about what a side is arguing about when the otherside isn't even arguing to that point. There are more things that can qualify for High 1-C than infinity. Do I need to repost the definition again? I honestly think this thread should just be closed at this point in general, but that is not up to me.
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