Reclarifying a specific word description of Doremy Sweet's profile

[Huesito88]

So I was just reading Doremy Sweet's profile and I then decided to start counting her Danmaku. While in the middle of trying to figure out what to count, I then decided that if I went and learned (saw) her move set from her fighting game one. It could better help me in my endeavor.

Upon doing so I noticed that Doremy Sweet has the mechanic of depending on what attacks she uses that successfully connect she can collect 1 point or 5 points "spawned" (Absorbed out and dropped). Which she can collect with her Vacuum or by herself. It's only upon getting 25 points does her Occult get stronger which she can get up to 4 uses (100 points max).

https://imgur.io/TSIBb6F

Basically what I'm suggest is for Doremy Sweet's feat description to be reworded to this.

(Can create, manipulate, destroy, and eat dreams[62][63]. Each dream contains multiple infinitely[64][65][66] sized[67] realms such as Hell and the Netherworld. It is also said that one can go anywhere within a dream[68], and that dreams are equivalent to reality[69][70], implying far more locations exist within them. She can also weaponize dream souls, which are the manifestation of one’s dream[71][72]. In doing so, she can absorb dream souls from her foes [73])

 

[ImmortalDread]

Link the profile page if you don't mind

 

[Huesito88]

Doremy Sweet

Doremy Sweet is a Baku who resides in the Dream World and is its ruler. Tier: 2-C Name: Doremy Sweet Origin: Touhou Project Gender: Female Age: Unknown Classification: Youkai, Baku Powers and Abilities: Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Can create, manipulate, destroy, and eat...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is fine. I think the ability to increase the power of her Last Word by absorbing dream souls could be considered a form of statistics amplification or damage boost.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is fine. I think the ability to increase the power of her Last Word by absorbing dream souls could be considered a form of statistics amplification or damage boost.

and soul manipulation

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

She has that already, though adding clarification wouldn't hurt. Adding absorption would probably also be a good idea.

However, I'm just now noticing the new justification is leaving out the part about Doremy using dream souls in her danmaku. Was that intentional?

 

[Huesito88]

Touhou having the second strongest Low 2-C feat in the Wiki (unless some other verse went off Dragon Super in the time I was gone) =P

 

[Huesito88]

She has that already, though adding clarification wouldn't hurt. Adding absorption would probably also be a good idea.

However, I'm just now noticing the new justification is leaving out the part about Doremy using dream souls in her danmaku. Was that intentional?

Yes that's the point (their still the same tier tho obviously)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not sure I'm really understanding what in the OP is supposed to disprove Doremy using dream souls in her danmaku as a 2-C feat.

 

[ImmortalDread]

She has that already, though adding clarification wouldn't hurt. Adding absorption would probably also be a good idea.

However, I'm just now noticing the new justification is leaving out the part about Doremy using dream souls in her danmaku. Was that intentional?

Welp, just adjust it. But you got my point.

 

[Huesito88]

I'm not sure I'm really understanding what in the OP is supposed to disprove Doremy using dream souls in her danmaku as a 2-C feat.

Yes the thing is the when Doremy Sweet successfully attacks small orbs (the depiction of Dream souls the same one she use in as Danmaku Tenkai) or medium orbs (a larger dream soul). When she gets 25 or 5 of these she then get one.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes the thing is the when Doremy Sweet successfully attacks small orbs (the depiction of Dream souls the same one she use in as Danmaku Tenkai) or medium orbs (a larger dream soul). When she gets 25 or 5 of these she then get one.

I am fairly certain Doremy can attack with dream souls even without her absorption; I'd have to verify if this is the case in AoCF, but she can very clearly do so in LoLK. Her Last Word shouldn't be relevant here, as it seemingly doesn't involve her creating or destroying dream souls (only using them to empower the Last Word).

 

[Huesito88]

She c

I am fairly certain Doremy can attack with dream souls even without her absorption; I'd have to verify if this is the case in AoCF, but she can very clearly do so in LoLK. Her Last Word shouldn't be relevant here, as it seemingly doesn't involve her creating or destroying dream souls (only using them to empower the Last Word).

Yes She can without absorption in AoCF creating 12 Small orbs in her Danmaku Tenkai and then she can use her vacuum on them and by doing that again you'll get 1 big (25 point one)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

She c

Yes She can without absorption in AoCF creating 12 Small orbs in her Danmaku Tenkai and then she can use her vacuum on them and by doing that again you'll get 1 big (25 point one)

Okay, but that's still exactly what I'm talking about. Her being able to create those dream souls at all is a 2-C feat worth mentioning. It has no reason to be removed.

 

[Huesito88]

Okay, but that's still exactly what I'm talking about. Her being able to create those dream souls at all is a 2-C feat worth mentioning. It has no reason to be removed.

No it wouldn't be as small, medium, and large dreams exist as concept not all dreams are the same

Edit Starting work won't reply back for 4 hours probably until lunch or break

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What reason do we have to assume this is the case? No statement or visualization of dreams being entire realities has mentioned the size of the dream soul being a factor; It's always just "dreams are entire realities", end of sentence. Hell, in the WaHH chapter explaining dream souls, the dream soul we see to be extremely small is described as an entire reality. Not that it matters, anyways, as Doremy can still create "large" dream souls on her own without absorption.

 

[Huesito88]

What reason do we have to assume this is the case? No statement or visualization of dreams being entire realities has mentioned the size of the dream soul being a factor; It's always just "dreams are entire realities", end of sentence. Hell, in the WaHH chapter explaining dream souls, the dream soul we see to be extremely small is described as an entire reality. Not that it matters, anyways, as Doremy can still create "large" dream souls on her own without absorption.

What reason? simple point mechanics outright states that

25 point small = 1 large dream
5 5 point ones = 1 large dream

That's a medium soul not a large one.
"depending on what attacks she uses that successfully connect she can collect 1 point or 5 points" Example Doremy uses Danmaku Tenkai 12 small orbs inturn 12 small orbs drop.

My point isn't in regards to Doremy not being able to manipulate large dreams without the use of absorption, she has all the states being able to eat dreams, erase dreams, manipulate, and we do see Doremy being able to absorption 2 large dream souls. So bring that up is irrelevant to the matter at hand

Yes the small dreams would still be a entire reality just it would be

insert the size of the Cosmetology of Touhou universe/25

Which would make it, along with the medium one as a feat by itself the second strongest Low 2-C feat.

Also I'm on my break so I'll only be able to respond again in 1 hour at lunch

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What reason? simple point mechanics outright states that

25 point small = 1 large dream
5 5 point ones = 1 large dream

That's a medium soul not a large one.
"depending on what attacks she uses that successfully connect she can collect 1 point or 5 points" Example Doremy uses Danmaku Tenkai 12 small orbs inturn 12 small orbs drop.

My point isn't in regards to Doremy not being able to manipulate large dreams without the use of absorption, she has all the states being able to eat dreams, erase dreams, manipulate, and we do see Doremy being able to absorption 2 large dream souls. So bring that up is irrelevant to the matter at hand

Yes the small dreams would still be a entire reality just it would be

insert the size of the Cosmetology of Touhou universe/25

Which would make it, along with the medium one as a feat by itself the second strongest Low 2-C feat.

Also I'm on my break so I'll only be able to respond again in 1 hour at lunch

You seem to misunderstand. You're working on the assumption that only the big dream souls qualify as full-fledged realities, but this isn't the case. WaHH only shows us small dream souls, yet they are still considered alternate realities. Furthermore, in that same chapter, the smaller dream souls are said to make Reimu and Marisa experience Sumireko's dreams (even though it's actually only Marisa); Which, based on Violet Detector, still contain universal realms like the Netherworld. Essentially, Sumireko's dreams are at least one universe, and even a small dream soul like we see in WaHH can contain those dreams (because exchanging dream souls with Sumireko is what even made them experience those dreams to begin with).

So, it's not that a small dream soul is 1/25th of the universe, it's that a big dream soul is 25x larger than the universe. That is, of course, assuming dream sizes "stack" in this manner, and it isn't just a matter of some vague stat amping detached from the size of the dream soul used.

 

[Huesito88]

"Essentially, Sumireko's dreams are at least one universe, and even a small dream soul like we see in WaHH can contain those dreams (because exchanging dream souls with Sumireko is what even made them experience those dreams to begin with)."

Great 1 Universe that's baseline Low 2-C lowest possible tier.

"WaHH only shows us small dream souls, yet they are still considered alternate realities."

AoCF was created way later, an author introducing new concepts later on and causing problems for earlier stuff is nothing new.

"So, it's not that a small dream soul is 1/25th of the universe, it's that a big dream soul is 25x larger than the universe. That is, of course, assuming dream sizes "stack" in this manner, and it isn't just a matter of some vague stat amping detached from the size of the dream soul used."

There's no reason to assumption over the other when it's clearly established there exists Small, Medium, and Large Dreams. Meaning the concept of not all dreams are created equal does exist. It takes 25 small ones to create a Large dream. The dreams would stack in this matter as Doremy's Danmaku Tenkai shots 12 small orbs at once or doing a medium attack will drop 1 medium orb

""depending on what attacks she uses that successfully connect she can collect 1 point or 5 points" Example Doremy uses Danmaku Tenkai 12 small orbs in-turn 12 small orbs drop."

Edit Going back to work

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Great 1 Universe that's baseline Low 2-C lowest possible tier.

Yes, exactly. Doremy can create or destroy multiple of these dream souls simultaneously, which is 2-C. I don't even need to get into whether or not dreams contain multiple universes, because creating two or more low 2-C structures in one go is enough for 2-C (which Doremy does quite frequently). Dream souls being vaguely "at least low 2-C" is like 90% of the reason 2-C even exists, so this doesn't even debunk anything.

AoCF was created way later, an author introducing new concepts later on and causing problems for earlier stuff is nothing new.

That's not how this works. AoCF in no way retcons what WaHH established. Nothing about the mechanics of Doremy's ability changes if we have small dream souls pegged at low 2-C; Everything still works and remains internally consistent. What you're doing here is confirmation bias, where you have a conclusion in mind and will just assume any contradictions to that conclusion should be ignored.

There's no reason to assumption over the other when it's clearly established there exists Small, Medium, and Large Dreams. Meaning the concept of not all dreams are created equal does exist. It takes 25 small ones to create a Large dream. The dreams would stack in this matter as Doremy's Danmaku Tenkai shots 12 small orbs at once or doing a medium attack will drop 1 medium orb

""depending on what attacks she uses that successfully connect she can collect 1 point or 5 points" Example Doremy uses Danmaku Tenkai 12 small orbs in-turn 12 small orbs drop."

What about this disproves what I said? Large dream souls can, in theory, be 25x larger than small dream souls. That means small dream souls are either 1/25th universal, or large dream souls are 25x universal. You haven't debunked the latter, and you haven't proven the former. But when we have prior evidence of small dream souls being universal at minimum, the 1/25th assumption completely falls apart.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

@Huesito88 All lot of this counterargument feels like pointless drivel, when the size and shape of dream souls has never been proven to affect the size of the dreams themselves. As stated above, a small dream soul can lead us to Sumireko's dreams, which we've seen the size and scope of already in later showings, with statements to support this.

You are the one who has to prove in some way that dream soul sizes actually determine the size of the realm in said dream. Everything you're saying right now is speculation at best. And even then, by your logic, Doremy can just make bigger realms that are higher into baseline low 2-C since small Dreams Souls are already Uni+.

Also, each individual dream soul can create a low 2-C realm yes, but since Doremy can effortlessly create many, many Dreams Souls at the same time, that leaves her granted with fairly casual 2C showings. That would be performed regardless of the dream souls' individual sizes, as well.

And if we're being honest, each individual dream is arguably a recreation of their entire reality, which could arguably be scaled far higher

And even ignoring everything above, spellcard rules and their method of settling disputes is still a thing. Making Dream Souls bigger or smaller could just benefit Doremy in Spellcard battles, since she's making difficult to dodge patterns. While this argument technically doesn't have much to stand on, neither does yours.

 

[Huesito88]

"when the size and shape of dream souls has never been proven to affect the size of the dreams themselves"


"You are the one who has to prove in some way that dream soul sizes actually determine the size of the realm in said dream. Everything you're saying right now is speculation at best."

Prove what exactly? Doremy can take small dreams and medium dreams off a target (1 point and 5 point). A people can dream of small dreams, medium, large ones.


"And even ignoring everything above, spellcard rules and their method of settling disputes is still a thing. Making Dream Souls bigger or smaller could just benefit Doremy in Spellcard battles, since she's making difficult to dodge patterns. While this argument technically doesn't have much to stand on, neither does yours."

It's not a increase in size for being hard to dodge the mechanics state it's power which can made a large dream (25 points)

""depending on what attacks she uses that successfully connect she can collect 1 point or 5 points" Example Doremy uses Danmaku Tenkai 12 small orbs in-turn 12 small orbs drop."


"While this argument technically doesn't have much to stand on, neither does yours."

My argument stands on the merit of small dreams, medium dreams, and large dreams being a concept that exists.

 

[Huesito88]

"Yes, exactly. Doremy can create or destroy multiple of these dream souls simultaneously, which is 2-C. I don't even need to get into whether or not dreams contain multiple universes, because creating two or more low 2-C structures in one go is enough for 2-C (which Doremy does quite frequently). Dream souls being vaguely "at least low 2-C" is like 90% of the reason 2-C even exists, so this doesn't even debunk anything."

Again

"My point isn't in regards to Doremy not being able to manipulate large dreams without the use of absorption, she has all the states being able to eat dreams, erase dreams, manipulate, and we do see Doremy being able to absorption 2 large dream souls. So bring that up is irrelevant to the matter at hand""


"That's not how this works. AoCF in no way retcons what WaHH established. Nothing about the mechanics of Doremy's ability changes if we have small dream souls pegged at low 2-C; Everything still works and remains internally consistent. What you're doing here is confirmation bias, where you have a conclusion in mind and will just assume any contradictions to that conclusion should be ignored."

Ok I might've assumed you meant something else when you said that sorry on that.

"But when we have prior evidence of small dream souls being universal at minimum, the 1/25th assumption completely falls apart."

It doesn't as a minimum Low 2-C < 1/25 of a Touhou Cosmetology

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

My argument stands on the merit of small dreams, medium dreams, and large dreams being a concept that exists.

Yes, and the size of a dream soul has never been shown to affect the actual size of the dream realm it represents, as even the smallest ones still form universe+ sized realms. Medium and large dream souls exist, which means absolutely nothing besides the argument that she has a larger aoe with Dream Souls.

Again, what is your point here, that medium and large dream souls are unquantifiably higher into Low 2-C, a tier that is still lower than her casual 2C feats? There is literally no discussion nor argument to be had, and at this point this CRT should just be closed because there's nothing here.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah we're off the road with this CRT, it has been agreed unanonimously so we shouldn't drag this for too long

 

[Huesito88]

"Medium and large dream souls exist, which means absolutely nothing besides the argument that she has a larger aoe with Dream Souls."

Again it's not a area of effect points state that a large dream soul is greater than 25 points. Doremy can rip Medium souls out. Besides once 25 points are reach it does empower Doremy Sweet. Stating it's just area effect would be wrong

"what is your point here, that medium and large dream souls are unquantifiably higher into Low 2-C, a tier that is still lower than her casual 2C feats?"

Nah my point is small and medium Dreams souls are if you want say it as unquantifiable Low 2-C and the Large and casual stuff for her tier is fine as it is.

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah we're off the road with this CRT, it has been agreed unanonimously so we shouldn't drag this for too long

By just one person and and another who just came in. Nothing is being dragged out or hasn't gone off the road.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Doremy's "small" dream souls aren't any lower than low 2-C. They can clearly contain Sumireko's dreams, which are capable of containing infinite space-times like the Netherworld. That is not 1/25th of low 2-C, or 1/5th, it is just objectively baseline low 2-C. Until you disprove this line of logic, nothing else you claim holds any merit.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

By just one person and and another who just came in. Nothing is being dragged out or hasn't gone off the road.

Yes it was dragged on by this dream thing so either cease or you deserve a Kiryu slap for being obnoxious

 

[Huesito88]

Yes it was dragged on by this dream thing so either cease or you deserve a Kiryu slap for being obnoxious

Haha that's funny and it's not dragged out by the dream thing as that was the purpose of this thread.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The purpose of this thread is just add more justification on Doremy soul hax, why bringing the tier 2 stuff and dream thing? You are being ignorant now

 

[Huesito88]

Doremy's "small" dream souls aren't any lower than low 2-C. They can clearly contain Sumireko's dreams, which are capable of containing infinite space-times like the Netherworld. That is not 1/25th of low 2-C, or 1/5th, it is just objectively baseline low 2-C. Until you disprove this line of logic, nothing else you claim holds any merit.

You misunderstand I'm not saying that Sumireko feat isn't Low 2-C, it is. Also I never once said the Cosmotology of Touhou was Low 2-C.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You misunderstand I'm not saying that Sumireko feat isn't Low 2-C, it is. Also I never once said the Cosmotology of Touhou was Low 2-C.

Okay, so small dream souls are low 2-C.

Doremy can create multiple small dream souls simultaneously. That is a 2-C feat.

Therefore, nothing about the current scaling changes.

 

[Huesito88]

"Okay, so small dream souls are low 2-C.

Doremy can create multiple small dream souls simultaneously. That is a 2-C feat.

Therefore, nothing about the current scaling changes."

Mad if I asked you what the current tiering of Cosmology of Touhou in the Wiki would be right now what number would you say? (Yes this is relevant to the matter at hand)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idk, probably 3-4x "countless" 2-B. There are countless Otherworlds, each with their own Hell (which is infinite), the beings in those worlds all have dreams which would be a countless number of low 2-C structures, and then there are the Heavens, also infinite, containing as many worlds as there are gods (again, countless). Maybe that's 6x countless 2-B, but I can't be bothered to deal with math at 12 AM.

Anyways, this shouldn't matter, as Doremy's profile is reliant on two things; Dreams being at least low 2-C in size, and Doremy visually creating many of these dreams at once. She does not yet scale to 2-B in any capacity, so please take that into account.

 

[Huesito88]

I going to be redrafting some stuff around been fun though I'm tired going to bed. I'll probably be doing something about this in the further future. I guess this can be closed for the time being.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

To be blunt, whether it's upgrades, downgrades, or just ability revisions that you're planning, you should open a dialogue with us in the future to prevent confusion or discourse like this. If we're all on the same page to some extent, things will go by smoother.

There's a lot of info to cite and read through, from many sources, when it comes to Touhou. This goes especially for its cosmology, because of all the comparisons between realms both in and out of universe. So yeah, I definitely recommend striking up conversation in the future!

But yeah, I guess someone can call staff to close this, then.

 

[Planck69]

I've been asked to close this thread.