2-C 2hu

[Shmooply]

Bump, still need this to be closed.

 

[Malomtek]

Gotta get this in before the thread is closed, since you guys are now pushing for it.

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You gotta be kidding me man.

The context here is that Maribel is reporting her visions of Gensokyo. When she describes these visions to Renko, her reaction is one of "oh, that sounds like a brane world", and the narrative supports her. It's two characters putting their individual specialties together (Maribel's ability to see other worlds and Renko's specialty in physics) to come to a new conclusion. It's the simple process of putting 2 and 2 together.

There's no "narrative" that "supports" Renko. It's literally all just her hypothetical ruminations. This "(higher) narrative" you speak of is pure headcanon.

Ah yes because clearly the character who literally has a ******* major in physics is an inaccurate source when it comes to physics.

"There's no narrative involved". Please stop posting. Your words are like sandpaper to my eyes. ZUN calling it a fanzine is... ******* meaningless? The story itself outright says it was a true story. Why does the delivery method of that information matter?

Evidence for this? Sounds like you're just arbitrarily excluding information for the sake of excluding anything that contradicts your point. I've already explained how the report itself actually focuses on the cosmological structure of Gensokyo, so you need to disprove that now.

Renko certainly isn't someone that can be taken as gospel when we're describing fantasylands seen through dreams that aren't even her own. She's never been to Gensokyo, or been able to actually study it in depth, so all she's making are loose hypotheses.

The "true story" bit is part of the fanzine. It only shows that Renko and Maribel's conversation really did take place. It doesn't prove anything.

And can you please calm down? Your "please stop posting. Your words are like sandpaper to my eyes" comments are unseemly for proper thread decorum in this place.

"Creating something doesn't mean you're knowledgeable about it".
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Also, yes, the primordial gods are conscious. Junko, whose purified state is identical to that of a primordial god based on how her ability works, is clearly capable of thinking.

Literally where the **** are you getting the idea of a supposed divine hierarchy from? Absolutely nothing in canon suggests that. Just please for the love of god stop making shit up. I know you're doing this just so you can try and fool staff members who know **** all about Touhou so you can get the downplay you so desperately want. That, or you really do believe your own headcanons. I'm not sure which is worse.

Yes, you can indeed create something in fiction without having any particular knowledge about its "finer details". Examples abound, with things such as Scribblenauts and the like.

How can "someone" who is basically "floating"/"swimming" whatever in some undifferentiated chaotic morass, with undifferentiated "consciousnesses", ever be "conscious" in the traditional sense.

The fact that the Kanako Yasaka was able to beat Suwako Moriya and become the "predominant" one of the Moriya Shrine is alone evidence enough of divine hierarchies in 2hu, never mind the mention of concepts such as the "Lord of Heaven" - a concept that, in this context, has practically no meaning outside of a divine hierarchy - or Buddhist deities (which themselves are usually put in their own hierarchies).

Allow me to rephrase: What relation does incorporeality have to the argument at hand? If they're incorporeal, they know the nature of reality due to creating it. If they're not incorporeal, they still know the nature of reality due to creating it. Completely irrelevant either way.

But the "Joon" that is active in the physical world is clearly not the same being as whatever "proto-Joon essence" was in the primordial soup from which the universe emerged. They are not even the same categorically. The "primordial god(s)" are clearly an entirely different substratum of being from the gods we commonly see being active in the 2huverse. The gods themselves weren't being differentiated (i.e. "named") until reality itself started to emerge. After that, there were separate gods (although some might overlap), each with different skills, aptitudes, and abilities. That's why some gods (like Eirin Yagokoro) are more intelligent than others (like Shion), and some gods (like Tsukiyomi) are more powerful than others (Yasaka and Moriya).

See Shmoopy's post above. You can't say "dreams aren't reality because dreams aren't real" in a series that repeatedly says dreams are, in fact, reality. So, where's your evidence to the contrary?

Wow yeah it's almost like there are at least half a dozen statements saying that dreams are equal to reality. Just seeing things recreated within dreams probably wouldn't be enough by itself, but it IS evidence that the various statements aren't bullshit; It's a series of statements backed up by a series of visualizations, making the overall notion of dreams being equal to reality far more consistent than if we just had statements or visualizations but not both.

DREAMS IN TOUHOU DONT WORK THE WAY THEY DO IN REAL LIFE BECAUSE TOUHOU IS NOT THE SAME AS REAL LIFE OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDD

You have to prove that dreams equaling reality is false in the context of Touhou itself. That is how this shit works. Because if we can take things as wildly varied as dreams, religion, psychology, and so on, and assume that Touhou uses these ideas identically to reality, we could literally just go "hey guys touhou and persona both have the collective unconscious and persona is 1-A, 1-A touhou confirmed!!1!!1!!1!11!!!!!1!!".

Btw none of this proves the brane stuff is false. That falls squarely in the category of measurable, quantifiable science, and is thus far less subjective than the topic of dreams. There is a general consensus on what branes are and how they work, but the same is not true for dreams.

They are clearly depicted and portrayed as distinct from reality, despite technically being "the other side" of the universe. ZUN himself makes this clear with the "just dreams" comment. You're conflating being a part of a wider "being"/"cosmos"/"universe" to being "reality" itself.

WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE HAVE DIRECT STATEMENTS FROM ANOTHER CHARACTER ABOUT HOW STRONG SHE IS. CRAZY HOW THAT WORKS.

SHE LITERALLY WAS STOPPED BY PEOPLE STRONGER BY HER THOUGH. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF JOON AND SHION GETTING INVOLVED. THIS IS LITERALLY JUST THE ******* PLOT OF AOCF.

"Shaking the heavens", which in this context just means shaking the "ground" they were fighting on, doesn't mean anything.

I'm not talking about Joon and Shion stopping Tenshi, I'm talking about other celestials in the heavens stopping Tenshi.

Miko's little pocket universe was at none of those sizes when it was initially created, so none of them apply here.

I don't know what to tell you other than that Saikou is full of shit. You saw the scan, you know that branes intersecting is how branes work based on that (I hope), so just because one guy said "no that's wrong" doesn't mean it's automatically wrong.

It wasn't just Saikou, it was @Qawsedf234 and several other mods telling you that you and the other 2hu supporters' understanding of brane cosmology was wrong.

Give me one reason why the outside world has to be a brane world for any of this to work. Why does it matter whether or not it's a brane world? Hell, you haven't even explained why either interpretation would somehow contradict the existence of brane cosmology.

Because every cosmic structure (like a universe) is supposed to be a brane in a brane cosmology? Even strings are technically 1-branes in brane cosmology. This is very basic stuff, and I don't know how you could have missed that.

"and I don't know how you got "bulk" from "brane world" to begin with"

Alright. Lemme be real with you. You need to stop talking about brane worlds immediately. This statement alone shows you have 0 ******* understanding of what branes actually are and how they work and are only arguing on the basis of "universal touhou bad >: (". I've at least put in the bare minimum effort of reading a few Wikipedia articles and learning from people who are more knowledgeable on the topic than me. You can do the same. But until you do, stop wasting my ******* time.

Anyways, I don't know what you're hoping to accomplish here. 2-C has been accepted already. We just need to work out some scaling stuff between supporters and we can apply the changes.

Thank ******* god the 2-A upgrades have **** all to do with branes though.

None of this ranting proves how Gensokyo is supposed to be a "bulk" that encompasses both the Dream World and Lunar Capital.

 

[Shmooply]

"Shaking the heavens", which in this context just means shaking the "ground" they were fighting on, doesn't mean anything.

You are proving further and further that you don't actually know anything about the context of this feat. You do realize that AoCF is a floater fighter, and that all three of them were in the sky the entire fight? Have you noticed how the ground beneath them was also destroyed? Just like with your Dream World arguments, I really see no point in debating the Tenshi feat with you either, since you are willingly ignoring context for your argument.