Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,211
- 10,531
Touhou threads have been kinda stagnant for a while. Nothing like some good ol’ fashioned controversy to make them interesting again.
Tenshi
As is currently accepted, Tenshi’s dream self was capable of shaking and potentially destroying the Heavens. Heaven is both infinite in size (which was briefly rejected but re-accepted after new supporting evidence) and an Otherworld. Otherworlds are, well, other worlds that possess their own laws of physics and are brane worlds, making them low 2-C by default (since they aren't compactified). However, Heaven is a bit unique in that there isn’t just one Heaven. It’s split into many separate Otherworlds. Note how the text in the first scan says Tenshi was shaking the Heavens, as in more than one, which means this feat that was affecting the entirety of a low 2-C structure was in fact affecting many of them; A clear cut case for 2-C.
Doremy
Next is Doremy’s dream stuff. Dreams are repeatedly stated to be equivalent to reality, with whatever is represented within a dream being perfectly equivalent to its real-world counterpart. An example of this is how Reisen’s dream self was confirmed to be equal to the real Reisen in all regards. Thus, whenever we see a location in a dream, we know that that location possesses the same qualities it does in the ‘main’ cosmology. This includes locations such as Hell, the Netherworld, Gensokyo, and the outside world. Hell, the Netherworld, and Gensokyo are all brane worlds due to being otherworlds (with Hell and the Netherworld each being infinite in size), which means they should be low 2-C by default. Furthermore, we know each dream contains replications of ALL of these locations, including ones we haven’t seen represented within them, since it is said that one can go anywhere in the cosmology within a dream, meaning each dream is representative of the Touhou multiverse as a whole (for the most part, at least). We see this concept proven in Violet Detector, where Sumireko experiences dreams of numerous unique locations across the cosmology, many of which she has never even canonically visited before (as shown in the scans above). Yes, I’m aware this interpretation would lead to much higher tiering than 2-C, but this is not the thread for discussing that. We know that individual dreams are 2-C at minimum, and that’s what matters for the time being.
As for scaling, this is somewhat simple. Doremy is repeatedly stated to be able to create or destroy dreams (it's literally her entire gimmick), with said control extending to every single person’s dreams. From there, we have WoG stating that she is very weak by youkai standards, so most if not all high tiers should upscale from her.
However, what’s important to note is that, even if an individual dream is only seen as low 2-C and not 2-C, Doremy would still scale to 2-C. This is because of dream souls. A dream soul is a representation of, well, a dream, taking the form of a small pink blob. Doremy is stated to be able to absorb these dream souls, and subsequently use them as attacks. Because each dream is low 2-C at minimum, and she is creating multiple of them simultaneously, this is blatantly 2-C, or quite a bit higher into 2-C if 2-C dreams are accepted.
Gensokyo Space-Time Merging
Two feats to look at here, both focused on the same basic concept. The important thing to note here is the Great Hakurei Barrier, which designated Gensokyo as a space completely separate from the outside world, additionally granting it its own flow of time. Due to the aforementioned context of being a brane world, Gensokyo should be low 2-C much like the outside world. As Kasen states in WaHH, the destruction of this barrier will cause Gensokyo and the outside world to essentially reunite, merging into a single space-time. So Gensokyo and the outside world are two separate space-times, and destroying the barrier between them will cause them to merge into one, with space-time merging being a very common example of 2-C feats.
Now for the actual feats. First is the Occult Balls, which are stated to be able to destroy the barrier between Gensokyo and the outside world. And then we have Yukari, who is stated to be able to do the same.
Which leaves us with 4 2-C feats:
-Tenshi (Her dream self was shaking the Heavens, which are composed of many separate Otherworlds, and threatening to destroy them in their entirety)
-Doremy (Stated to be able to create, destroy, or eat dreams, with individual dreams containing multiple infinitely-sized locations with their own flow of time such as Hell and the Netherworld. She can also create and weaponize dozens of these dreams at a time with her casual attacks)
-Occult Balls (At their full power, they were going to cause the barrier between Gensokyo and the outside world, both separate space-times, to be destroyed, thus merging them together)
-Yukari (Can destroy the barrier separating Gensokyo from the outside world, which denotes the two as separate space-times, and the destruction of which would cause the two to merge together)
That just leaves the question of how this will affect high tier scaling. With Tensh’s high 3-A feat now 2-C, we only really have one clear high 3-A feat: Youmu’s infinite moon slash. All other feats are either low 2-C already, or have the distinct possibility of being low 2-C (Miko’s corridor absorption and Eirin’s Klein bottle). With that in mind, I personally believe that, due to both low 2-C and 2-C being more consistent than high 3-A, all high tiers should now have “Low 2-C, possibly 2-C” listed instead of their current AP. I am, of course, open to other suggestions.
Tenshi
As is currently accepted, Tenshi’s dream self was capable of shaking and potentially destroying the Heavens. Heaven is both infinite in size (which was briefly rejected but re-accepted after new supporting evidence) and an Otherworld. Otherworlds are, well, other worlds that possess their own laws of physics and are brane worlds, making them low 2-C by default (since they aren't compactified). However, Heaven is a bit unique in that there isn’t just one Heaven. It’s split into many separate Otherworlds. Note how the text in the first scan says Tenshi was shaking the Heavens, as in more than one, which means this feat that was affecting the entirety of a low 2-C structure was in fact affecting many of them; A clear cut case for 2-C.
Doremy
Next is Doremy’s dream stuff. Dreams are repeatedly stated to be equivalent to reality, with whatever is represented within a dream being perfectly equivalent to its real-world counterpart. An example of this is how Reisen’s dream self was confirmed to be equal to the real Reisen in all regards. Thus, whenever we see a location in a dream, we know that that location possesses the same qualities it does in the ‘main’ cosmology. This includes locations such as Hell, the Netherworld, Gensokyo, and the outside world. Hell, the Netherworld, and Gensokyo are all brane worlds due to being otherworlds (with Hell and the Netherworld each being infinite in size), which means they should be low 2-C by default. Furthermore, we know each dream contains replications of ALL of these locations, including ones we haven’t seen represented within them, since it is said that one can go anywhere in the cosmology within a dream, meaning each dream is representative of the Touhou multiverse as a whole (for the most part, at least). We see this concept proven in Violet Detector, where Sumireko experiences dreams of numerous unique locations across the cosmology, many of which she has never even canonically visited before (as shown in the scans above). Yes, I’m aware this interpretation would lead to much higher tiering than 2-C, but this is not the thread for discussing that. We know that individual dreams are 2-C at minimum, and that’s what matters for the time being.
As for scaling, this is somewhat simple. Doremy is repeatedly stated to be able to create or destroy dreams (it's literally her entire gimmick), with said control extending to every single person’s dreams. From there, we have WoG stating that she is very weak by youkai standards, so most if not all high tiers should upscale from her.
However, what’s important to note is that, even if an individual dream is only seen as low 2-C and not 2-C, Doremy would still scale to 2-C. This is because of dream souls. A dream soul is a representation of, well, a dream, taking the form of a small pink blob. Doremy is stated to be able to absorb these dream souls, and subsequently use them as attacks. Because each dream is low 2-C at minimum, and she is creating multiple of them simultaneously, this is blatantly 2-C, or quite a bit higher into 2-C if 2-C dreams are accepted.
Gensokyo Space-Time Merging
Two feats to look at here, both focused on the same basic concept. The important thing to note here is the Great Hakurei Barrier, which designated Gensokyo as a space completely separate from the outside world, additionally granting it its own flow of time. Due to the aforementioned context of being a brane world, Gensokyo should be low 2-C much like the outside world. As Kasen states in WaHH, the destruction of this barrier will cause Gensokyo and the outside world to essentially reunite, merging into a single space-time. So Gensokyo and the outside world are two separate space-times, and destroying the barrier between them will cause them to merge into one, with space-time merging being a very common example of 2-C feats.
Now for the actual feats. First is the Occult Balls, which are stated to be able to destroy the barrier between Gensokyo and the outside world. And then we have Yukari, who is stated to be able to do the same.
Which leaves us with 4 2-C feats:
-Tenshi (Her dream self was shaking the Heavens, which are composed of many separate Otherworlds, and threatening to destroy them in their entirety)
-Doremy (Stated to be able to create, destroy, or eat dreams, with individual dreams containing multiple infinitely-sized locations with their own flow of time such as Hell and the Netherworld. She can also create and weaponize dozens of these dreams at a time with her casual attacks)
-Occult Balls (At their full power, they were going to cause the barrier between Gensokyo and the outside world, both separate space-times, to be destroyed, thus merging them together)
-Yukari (Can destroy the barrier separating Gensokyo from the outside world, which denotes the two as separate space-times, and the destruction of which would cause the two to merge together)
That just leaves the question of how this will affect high tier scaling. With Tensh’s high 3-A feat now 2-C, we only really have one clear high 3-A feat: Youmu’s infinite moon slash. All other feats are either low 2-C already, or have the distinct possibility of being low 2-C (Miko’s corridor absorption and Eirin’s Klein bottle). With that in mind, I personally believe that, due to both low 2-C and 2-C being more consistent than high 3-A, all high tiers should now have “Low 2-C, possibly 2-C” listed instead of their current AP. I am, of course, open to other suggestions.
