2-C 2hu

[LordGriffin1000]

It's because there are multiple separate heavens, acting as separate space-times. If the energy exerted was restricted to a 3D scale, it wouldn't have been able to affect those separate locations at all, unless we're assuming the energy generated somehow just teleported across dimensions. Essentially, it has to be a 2-C by virtue of its range, because high 3-A range would mean she'd be restricted to a single heaven.

Not really, you just need 2-C range, not power. The two aren't related.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They're not inherently connected, but covering that range in a manner that would scale to AP - such as creating, destroying, or significantly affecting such a range - would be 2-C. I'm currently looking for other examples where shaking multiple space-times qualifies for tier 2, but here's at least one.

Should also mention that Tenshi potentially destroying Heaven entirely isn't out of the question either, given her casually shaking it mere moments beforehand. That would still be 2-C.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

They're not inherently connected, but covering that range in a manner that would scale to AP - such as creating, destroying, or significantly affecting such a range - would be 2-C. I'm currently looking for other examples where shaking multiple space-times qualifies for tier 2, but here's at least one.

Well I'm neutral regarding it being 2-C. I'll try and look at the other stuff when I can.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thanks, take your time. Demogorgon also has a 2-C rating from shaking several infinite universes, I should mention. There is precedent for this sort of feat, is all I'm saying. EDIT: Another example.

 

[Elizhaa]

Based on the standard of the universe page for pocket realms, if the Gensokyo is island-sized, it would just get treated as a pocket realm.
The other 2-C feat seems fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Based on the standard of the universe page for pocket realms, if the Gensokyo is island-sized, it would just get treated as a pocket realm.
The other 2-C feat seems fine.

Alright, 2 agreements on Tenshi's feat, full agreement on 2-C dreams, and 1 disagreement on Gensokyo merging.

But I need to be absolutely sure of something. Does Gensokyo being a brane world change anything? Because based on precedent from what Ultima has said in the past, as well as out current tiering standards, we do seemingly accept brane worlds as low 2-C due to the bulk, regardless of spatial extent. Is this accurate? If not, we should likely update the tiering page to reflect the fact that realms with bulks that embed lower dimensions are no longer low 2-C by default.

 

[Elizhaa]

Brane's size always matters. A brane that is compact or small doesn't really get a high tier like Tier Low 2-C.
Like the Low 2-C case, state the size has to be a least universal, for instance:

Low 2-C: Universe level+​

Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:
A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

B) Portrayed as completely transcending lower-dimensional objects and spaces in the setting of a given work of fiction.
I don't really think a note is needed. Ultima, from what I recall, did mention that a cosmic scale is needed for brane like here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So the space as a whole is not low 2-C. However, even if the space embedded within the bulk does not meet the requirements for low 2-C, would the bulk itself still be assumed to be infinite and/or higher dimensional? Not related to 2-C, just curious.

I was under the impression that compactified/microscopic was referring to dimensions far too small for even humans to perceive, so anything that could reasonably support living things would still qualify. After all, compactified branes do not possess a bulk, but Gensokyo is shown to meet at least some of the requirements of the LED aspect of brane theory, and it clearly has a bulk in the form of the Hakurei Barrier.

In any case, I am fine with leaving space-time merging out of the scaling, given the other feats have seemingly been accepted. That just leaves the question of what we do with the other 2 feats in terms of scaling, whether that be a solid rating, a likely, or a possibly.

 

[Elizhaa]

So the space as a whole is not low 2-C. However, even if the space embedded within the bulk does not meet the requirements for low 2-C, would the bulk itself still be assumed to be infinite and/or higher dimensional? Not related to 2-C, just curious.

Just to keep it brief, if the brane doesn't meet the required size, it is usually treated as a small pocket realm.

The other feats seem solid since the association of dream size since to being at least universal and likewise for the other worlds.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, but what if it has a bulk? We do treat that as infinite, even if the space embedded within is not. I can accept Gensokyo itself not being low 2-C, that's fine. I just want to know if the bulk containing it would be accepted as such.

 

[Confluctor]

You guys need to make your mind up regarding which character said brane and how smart they are.

But Basically, small space times don't qualify low 2c for sure. Now you do bring up bulk quite often, so before disagreeing with that feat (now that I have more context for it), can you explain how they treat the bulk stuff? How does 2hu uses it? Do we actually see multiple "worlds" in this small space time? Or not?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Again, according to our tiering system, brane worlds are low 2-C because of the bulk that contains them. If it was JUST about the physical space Gensokyo occupies, then yeah, it'd be around 6-C in scope. But we assume the bulk of a brane world is infinite and a higher dimension, so they are low 2-C at minimum. Cannot emphasize enough how little the physical 3D space of Gensokyo matters here.


Again, the physical 3D space is finite. I'm not arguing that. It's the bulk containing that space that is infinite. If this is a problem for you, then by all means, change the tiering system. But under the current system, Gensokyo is low 2-C.

They're brane worlds, so they have bulks. That is how brane worlds work. You cannot have a brane world without a bulk. Bulks are quite literally the entire basis the concept of brane worlds is built on.


What? I don't even understand your argument. Shattering the barrier would cause Gensokyo and the outside world to merge together, yes. How does that disprove it being a brane world? You need to explain these things.

And I'm not using the tiering system as a 'cover', ******* hell. It is literally the system we use to judge nearly every single CRT on the site, so yeah, of course I'm gonna ******* use it because I am literally required to. What would you prefer I use if not the tiering system?

Well my argument has been said above again by some other users, the tiering system treating brane world has a bulk of multiple space-times, does not mean any verse that is called a brane world is automatically assumed to be the same, since the tiering system requires the said space-times to be universal in size.

Anyway that is what i have contention with in this thread, i am not knowledgeable enough on the series to comment on the other feat, but it looks fine if its true

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then. I just want to know if the bulk by itself can be assumed to be of a higher tier, even if the brane isn't. That being said, there seems to be a general consensus that the other 2 feats are fine, so I think there just needs to be a discussion about the scaling and we can start applying stuff.

You guys need to make your mind up regarding which character said brane and how smart they are.

But Basically, small space times don't qualify low 2c for sure. Now you do bring up bulk quite often, so before disagreeing with that feat (now that I have more context for it), can you explain how they treat the bulk stuff? How does 2hu uses it? Do we actually see multiple "worlds" in this small space time? Or not?

It is very likely that the bulk of Gensokyo is infinite in extent, based on this scan (though it's also possibly about a separate boundary, context makes it more likely to be about the Hakurei Barrier). To encompass the Lunar Capital would require encompassing the Dream World as well, which is infinite in size for similar reasons as dreams (ie; Being equal to reality). Dreams themselves are accepted as infinite, and individual dreams exist in the Dream World. So while there are not multiple worlds in the small space-time of Gensokyo itself, there are many worlds of universal size or greater within the bulk of Gensokyo. So the bulk itself, and not the brane, would almost definitely be at least low 2-C (though realistically a lot higher).

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Reading the other feats in the OP, I'm neutral regarding 2-C. If enough people agree with it, I don't really have an issue with it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then. Since it seems we only have one clear disagreement with the premise, I think we can shift the discussion to scaling. Given 2 of the feats are fine to use, I would think most people would be okay with a 'low 2-C, likely 2-C' rating. However, Doremy performs her 2-C feats on a daily basis as it is literally her job to control dreams, and manipulating many of them at once is the core premise of her fighting style. This alone should make a solid 2-C a possibility, especially since the low 2-C feats we have now are depicted as very casual, so we can use them as supporting evidence. Either way, main focus should be on the scaling chain. I can get started on a rough draft of that after work today.

Also, I believe we should remove the Senkai creation feat from Miko's profile again, since that hinged on it being a brane world, though that's no longer inherently low 2-C. There's also a possibility that we'll need to remove the notion of a 2-B cosmology since I'm pretty sure that was reliant on brane world stuff as well, though the old cosmology blog is so outdated that we shouldn't use it as a source anyways. Though, since dreams are accepted as universal, a 2-A cosmology is a very distinct possibility.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Btw I'm still working on the scaling chain, may take a little while longer. Turns out Aya and Hatate may not have as concrete high tier ratings as I initially thought, so this could prove to be an issue.

EDIT: Nevermind, spoke too soon. @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara shut the **** up challenge.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump. Yes, I'm still working on the scaling.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Malomtek]

This is blatantly false. In fact, Maribel is not the source of any statement related to branes. She is recalling what she saw, and more reliable sources are providing greater context to those visions.

"Maribel is not the source of any statement related to branes, but this entire 'brane' stuff is based on her dreams."

What even is this?

This statement is from Renko (she's the second line here, since the first line is from someone able to 'see' Gensokyo, which only applies to Maribel).

Also from Renko (same logic from above applies here).

From the narrative.

Also from the narrative. As you can see, 2 statements from Renko, 2 from the narrative, and 0 from Maribel. Perhaps you need to work on gathering a bit more context beyond just what you find with Ctrl + F.

Merely hypotheticals and not clear statements of fact.

There no "narrative" or "omniscient third-person view" involved either, as ZUN himself states at the end, this entire "report" is part of a "fanzine" done by Maribel and Renko. There's no "higher authority" to any of this.

Uh, no. The opening states that they are recording knowledge about the worlds in general. In fact, the very opening line is describing the physical qualities of Gensokyo (that being that it is 'infinitely small' from the outside world's perspective, low 1-C outside world confirmed), so they are quite blatantly recording significant cosmological details, which are being confirmed as true by the narrative.

Anyways lemme respond to your wall of text already gdi

Even if we took the "true story" bit to extend to the whole report and not just the youkai battle, it would only extend to the fact that Renko and Maribel spoke to each other and the things Maribel saw in her dream visions, and it wouldn't make Renko's hypotheticals about the makeup of Gensokyo true.

Uhhhh...

First of all, the perceived existence of a hierarchy of gods is meaningless. They were all equally responsible for the creation of reality at the beginning of everything, which makes the standing of their physical avatars pointless in this regard. Even then, why would a hierarchy of power determine what a character does or doesn't know? Power and knowledge are not inherently connected. And even then, Joon being on the lower end of this supposed hierarchy is stupid in and of itself, when she's comparable to Shion, who fought on par with Reimu and forced her to spam one of her most powerful techniques. They're obviously on on the upper end of your hierarchy headcanon.

Being part of some undifferentiated creative morass (comparable to Chaos in Greek mythology, honestly), which no one has any reason to believe was even conscious in the traditional sense, doesn't grant any character automatic special knowledge on the universe. Creation and knowledge are not inherently connected, especially not given how the 2hu universe was created in the first place to begin with.

"Fighting on par with Reimu" doesn't have anything to do in particular with divine standing, unless you think Reimu is some high level god or something.

Also, incorporeality is not a factor here. The points is that we know Joon is knowledgeable in the nature of reality because she's one of the people who created it. Where the hell did you get incorporeality from this?

You're talking about "nameless essences" and abstract "true forms", yet you're wondering where I got "incorporeality" from?

The point is that they would be able to legitimately feel Tenshi's power. If she was shaking the heavens, then people would be able to feel that energy being exerted, and they did. This alone discredits the whole idea that dream selves lack power in the real world. How else would other characters be feeling that power?

What are even talking about? My argument is that dreams don't necessarily scale 1:1 with reality, because of their fundamentally "unreal" nature.

Also, not really a mock fight. Dream selves are the repressed emotions of the original, often being far more aggressive as a result (which applies to Tenshi in spades). Considering she also spends a lot of time building up her willingness to destroy everything, saying she was arbitrarily holding back is stupid. It's not like the spell card rules are some inviolable laws that nobody can break; Notably, Junko has spell cards solely dedicated to killing people, and a number of other spell cards are treated as lethal as well, so even though it was under SCR, that doesn't mean things suddenly lack power or can't be scaled to anything.

Even if Dream Tenshi wasn't "holding back", that doesn't mean she's capable of everything she threatens or says she can do.

Especially since there are presumably stronger people in the 2huland "heavens", like the "Lord of Heaven", who could stop her.

"name one world touhou characters have affected"
...
"no not that one"

C'mon man. Creation feats are just as valid as destruction or "affecting" feats when it comes to AP. You're just making an arbitrary exclusion to make it seem like there's less evidence than there really is. I'd also bring up Tenshi's heaven shaking stuff but I know how you feel about that.

"Creation feats are just as valid as destruction or "affecting" feats when it comes to AP."

Not really, though? I'm pretty sure it depends on context. We don't give anyone any particular tier just for creating a pocket dimension in itself.

Perfect possession isn't dream manipulation though. It forces the user to pass through the Dream World, yes, but that's literally just dimensional travel combined with possession. At no point does it control or otherwise affect dreams in a manner that could fall under dream manipulation.

"Dream selves and real selves being comparable doesn't mean they're comparable"
MAKE IT MAKE SENSE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

They're treated as comparable in literally every single scenario where dream selves are present. Dream Tenshi has power on par with high tier gods, dream Shinmyoumaru fights literally identically to the original, Mokou affirms that dream Reisen is identical to the real one in combat ability, dream Sumireko and the real Sumireko fight on even terms with one another at the end of VD, like how consistent does this shit need to be before you realize dream selves are equal to real selves?

Also the dream self stuff is just supporting evidence for dreams as a whole equaling reality. The main evidence is the like half dozen statements of dreams equaling reality that you seem intent on ignoring. And the statement about one being able to go anywhere, even places the dreamer has never seen before, within a dream. And the repeated examples of cosmological locations being recreated in dreams. What will it take to convince you dreams equal reality if not the series spending like half of the focus on dreams talking about how identical to reality they are?

Dreams containing simulacra of things in reality, even simulacra of a high verisimilitude, doesn't mean that dreams equal reality. It's simple.

Do you have even a single example of this being the case? Like I've combed through all dream-related content in Touhou for the sake of this CRT, and found nothing even resembling what you're claiming. The closest thing is that dream selves have more aggressive personalities than their real selves, but that has no bearing on scaling whatsoever. This is a bold claim to make with 0 scans, especially when there are so many scans suggesting otherwise.

You know how dreams work. Dreams can wildly vary from reality, and there's no reason to believe it's not the same way in 2huland. Even ZUN understands this ("they're ultimately just dreams" as he describes Doremy's power over the dream world), so I don't see why you don't.

A lot to unpack here.

That's not how bulks work... They're not just like some wall up in the sky or whatever. They're higher-dimensional structures, which means they cannot be seen or interacted with normally. Also, the evidence of Gensokyo having a bulk is that it is a brane world. Literally every single (non-compactified) brane world has a bulk, otherwise it wouldn't be a brane world. Hell, you could even argue that the Hakurei Barrier is the bulk, as that was what established Gensokyo as a dimension spatio-temporally separate from the outside world in the first place.

Stars and other cosmological phenomena are not required for low 2-C. The residents don't comment on it because... why would they? People don't just go around talking about how big the place they live in is for no reason?? I'm not gonna sit here and go "Oh boy I love living in a city with an area of 112.64 square miles" because that's ******* stupid. Also, Gensokyo's denizens are people from early Meiji era Japan at the very latest. Of course they don't ******* know what a brane world is. Brane worlds intersecting with other brane worlds is literally one of the main components of brane cosmology, what the **** are you talking about. If anything, this is just further confirmation of Gensokyo being a brane world. Also, the outside world isn't a brane world. Nobody ever refers to it as such, and the qualifications for an Otherworld is 'anything outside the earth and moon', which the outside world clearly does not meet.

I'm pretty sure that in the last "complex multiversal 2hu" thread, it was stated by mods that branes intersecting with each other, or containing other branes (of equivalent or higher dimensionality), was not how string theory worked. At all.

If Gensokyo and the other Otherworlds are "brane worlds", while the "outside world" is not, then what exactly is the "outside world" supposed to be? And how does this not drastically contravene to the "proper" and "scientific" brane cosmology that you appeal to so much for this "low 2-C Gensokyo" stuff?

It is very likely that the bulk of Gensokyo is infinite in extent, based on this scan (though it's also possibly about a separate boundary, context makes it more likely to be about the Hakurei Barrier).

Even if assumed that mention of the "barrier" to specifically be about the Hakurei Barrier, that would only mean that the Hakurei Barrier itself has weird spatial manipulation properties ("finite but unbounded", "spatial distortion", etc etc) that extend as far as the Earth-Moon distance, which have nothing to do with Gensokyo's size in particular.

To encompass the Lunar Capital would require encompassing the Dream World as well, which is infinite in size for similar reasons as dreams (ie; Being equal to reality). Dreams themselves are accepted as infinite, and individual dreams exist in the Dream World. So while there are not multiple worlds in the small space-time of Gensokyo itself, there are many worlds of universal size or greater within the bulk of Gensokyo. So the bulk itself, and not the brane, would almost definitely be at least low 2-C (though realistically a lot higher).

I don't know where these notions of some "Gensokyo Bulk" encompassing the Dream World and the Lunar Capital come from (and I don't know how you got "bulk" from "brane world" to begin with), but that's pure headcanon.

 

[Shmooply]

My argument is that dreams don't necessarily scale 1:1 with reality, because of their fundamentally "unreal" nature.

I'm just clumping all of this together because it's the same argument. You have to prove that "Dreams ≠ real,"

Until you can prove that, I see no point in arguing this with you

This is the only part of Mal's argument that I can tackle at the moment, as I'm pretty fatigued. I'll repeat myself, please bring up actual scans that shows that dreams are inherently "unreal" in Touhou's cosmology, when it has been proven time and time again in this thread that's far from the case. Stop regurgitating the same debunked talking point.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Maribel is not the source of any statement related to branes, but this entire 'brane' stuff is based on her dreams."

What even is this?

I

You gotta be kidding me man.

The context here is that Maribel is reporting her visions of Gensokyo. When she describes these visions to Renko, her reaction is one of "oh, that sounds like a brane world", and the narrative supports her. It's two characters putting their individual specialties together (Maribel's ability to see other worlds and Renko's specialty in physics) to come to a new conclusion. It's the simple process of putting 2 and 2 together.

Merely hypotheticals and not clear statements of fact.

There no "narrative" or "omniscient third-person view" involved either, as ZUN himself states at the end, this entire "report" is part of a "fanzine" done by Maribel and Renko. There's no "higher authority" to any of this.

Ah yes because clearly the character who literally has a ******* major in physics is an inaccurate source when it comes to physics.

"There's no narrative involved". Please stop posting. Your words are like sandpaper to my eyes. ZUN calling it a fanzine is... ******* meaningless? The story itself outright says it was a true story. Why does the delivery method of that information matter?

Even if we took the "true story" bit to extend to the whole report and not just the youkai battle, it would only extend to the fact that Renko and Maribel spoke to each other and the things Maribel saw in her dream visions, and it wouldn't make Renko's hypotheticals about the makeup of Gensokyo true.

Evidence for this? Sounds like you're just arbitrarily excluding information for the sake of excluding anything that contradicts your point. I've already explained how the report itself actually focuses on the cosmological structure of Gensokyo, so you need to disprove that now.

Being part of some undifferentiated creative morass (comparable to Chaos in Greek mythology, honestly), which no one has any reason to believe was even conscious in the traditional sense, doesn't grant any character automatic special knowledge on the universe. Creation and knowledge are not inherently connected, especially not given how the 2hu universe was created in the first place to begin with.

"Fighting on par with Reimu" doesn't have anything to do in particular with divine standing, unless you think Reimu is some high level god or something.

"Creating something doesn't mean you're knowledgeable about it".
??????????????????????????????????????

Also, yes, the primordial gods are conscious. Junko, whose purified state is identical to that of a primordial god based on how her ability works, is clearly capable of thinking.

Literally where the **** are you getting the idea of a supposed divine hierarchy from? Absolutely nothing in canon suggests that. Just please for the love of god stop making shit up. I know you're doing this just so you can try and fool staff members who know **** all about Touhou so you can get the downplay you so desperately want. That, or you really do believe your own headcanons. I'm not sure which is worse.

You're talking about "nameless essences" and abstract "true forms", yet you're wondering where I got "incorporeality" from?

Allow me to rephrase: What relation does incorporeality have to the argument at hand? If they're incorporeal, they know the nature of reality due to creating it. If they're not incorporeal, they still know the nature of reality due to creating it. Completely irrelevant either way.

What are even talking about? My argument is that dreams don't necessarily scale 1:1 with reality, because of their fundamentally "unreal" nature.

See Shmoopy's post above. You can't say "dreams aren't reality because dreams aren't real" in a series that repeatedly says dreams are, in fact, reality. So, where's your evidence to the contrary?

Even if Dream Tenshi wasn't "holding back", that doesn't mean she's capable of everything she threatens or says she can do.

Especially since there are presumably stronger people in the 2huland "heavens", like the "Lord of Heaven", who could stop her.

WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE HAVE DIRECT STATEMENTS FROM ANOTHER CHARACTER ABOUT HOW STRONG SHE IS. CRAZY HOW THAT WORKS.

SHE LITERALLY WAS STOPPED BY PEOPLE STRONGER BY HER THOUGH. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF JOON AND SHION GETTING INVOLVED. THIS IS LITERALLY JUST THE ******* PLOT OF AOCF.

"Creation feats are just as valid as destruction or "affecting" feats when it comes to AP."

Not really, though? I'm pretty sure it depends on context. We don't give anyone any particular tier just for creating a pocket dimension in itself.

lol

Dreams containing simulacra of things in reality, even simulacra of a high verisimilitude, doesn't mean that dreams equal reality. It's simple.

Wow yeah it's almost like there are at least half a dozen statements saying that dreams are equal to reality. Just seeing things recreated within dreams probably wouldn't be enough by itself, but it IS evidence that the various statements aren't bullshit; It's a series of statements backed up by a series of visualizations, making the overall notion of dreams being equal to reality far more consistent than if we just had statements or visualizations but not both.

You know how dreams work. Dreams can wildly vary from reality, and there's no reason to believe it's not the same way in 2huland. Even ZUN understands this ("they're ultimately just dreams" as he describes Doremy's power over the dream world), so I don't see why you don't.

DREAMS IN TOUHOU DONT WORK THE WAY THEY DO IN REAL LIFE BECAUSE TOUHOU IS NOT THE SAME AS REAL LIFE OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDD

You have to prove that dreams equaling reality is false in the context of Touhou itself. That is how this shit works. Because if we can take things as wildly varied as dreams, religion, psychology, and so on, and assume that Touhou uses these ideas identically to reality, we could literally just go "hey guys touhou and persona both have the collective unconscious and persona is 1-A, 1-A touhou confirmed!!1!!1!!1!11!!!!!1!!".

Btw none of this proves the brane stuff is false. That falls squarely in the category of measurable, quantifiable science, and is thus far less subjective than the topic of dreams. There is a general consensus on what branes are and how they work, but the same is not true for dreams.

I'm pretty sure that in the last "complex multiversal 2hu" thread, it was stated by mods that branes intersecting with each other, or containing other branes (of equivalent or higher dimensionality), was not how string theory worked. At all.

If Gensokyo and the other Otherworlds are "brane worlds", while the "outside world" is not, then what exactly is the "outside world" supposed to be? And how does this not drastically contravene to the "proper" and "scientific" brane cosmology that you appeal to so much for this "low 2-C Gensokyo" stuff?

I don't know what to tell you other than that Saikou is full of shit. You saw the scan, you know that branes intersecting is how branes work based on that (I hope), so just because one guy said "no that's wrong" doesn't mean it's automatically wrong.

Give me one reason why the outside world has to be a brane world for any of this to work. Why does it matter whether or not it's a brane world? Hell, you haven't even explained why either interpretation would somehow contradict the existence of brane cosmology.

Even if assumed that mention of the "barrier" to specifically be about the Hakurei Barrier, that would only mean that the Hakurei Barrier itself has weird spatial manipulation properties ("finite but unbounded", "spatial distortion", etc etc) that extend as far as the Earth-Moon distance, which have nothing to do with Gensokyo's size in particular.

Where are you getting spatial manip from???? Where is this stated?????? Just stop making shit up for once please for the love of god-

I don't know where these notions of some "Gensokyo Bulk" encompassing the Dream World and the Lunar Capital come from (and I don't know how you got "bulk" from "brane world" to begin with), but that's pure headcanon.

"and I don't know how you got "bulk" from "brane world" to begin with"

Alright. Lemme be real with you. You need to stop talking about brane worlds immediately. This statement alone shows you have 0 ******* understanding of what branes actually are and how they work and are only arguing on the basis of "universal touhou bad >: (". I've at least put in the bare minimum effort of reading a few Wikipedia articles and learning from people who are more knowledgeable on the topic than me. You can do the same. But until you do, stop wasting my ******* time.

Anyways, I don't know what you're hoping to accomplish here. 2-C has been accepted already. We just need to work out some scaling stuff between supporters and we can apply the changes.

Thank ******* god the 2-A upgrades have **** all to do with branes though.

 

[Shmooply]

If Confluctor is still checking this thread, I can provide another TL;DR about what's currently going on.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't see the need tbh, it's just the same arguments being done after we already got 2-C accepted. If they ask then go for it.

 

[ÆONS]

I feel at this point there would be just be more stonewalling from people who object to the upgrades. I think it's time to get a move on and set things up.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll post the proposed scaling later tonight.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is mostly a rehash of where we are now, but this is both good for provoking discussion and for having these scans all in one place, since they'll be added to the profiles regardless (we really need to be better about scans). Don't expect this to cover absolutely everyone, though I'll do my best to touch on as many characters as possible. This should likely cover any future tier upgrades as well.

Starting with Doremy, we know she's on the lower rung of high tier youkai. Tengu, being considered generally strong youkai, should upscale. While no characters directly scale to or upscale from Aya or Hatate (except Lord Tenma and Megumu, neither of whom have pages), we can jump forward a few steps in the scaling chain and jump to oni, with even the weakest oni being considered superior to tengu society as a whole. From there we have Suiki, a kishin, and as kishin command numerous lesser oni, they should upscale. Clownpiece is stated to be on par with kishin, so she scales, but more importantly, hermits fight on par with kishin all the time to sustain their immortality, so they scale as well. From there, we have Marisa almost killing Seiga on accident, showing she upscales from hermits pretty easily. There's also stuff like Ichirin being considered a rival to Futo, and Byakuren and Miko being rivals as well. Celestials are considered superior to hermits, which is where Tenshi comes in. From there, we can scale Joon and Shion to this level via their fight against dream Tenshi, and scale Reimu as well due to her fighting and overpowering an unsuppressed Shion (albeit with some difficulty, showing the two are roughly comparable). On the topic of hermits, Kasen is also one, though she exists outside their place in the scaling chain, as Miko states Kasen is overwhelmingly superior to her. In that same vein, we see her overpowering Reimu without much effort, and basically laughing off her Fantasy Seal. Reimu downscales heavily due to surviving an attack that was likely meant to kill her in this scene. From there, we have the oni who are considered the Big Four of the Mountain (Kasen, Suika, Yuugi, and ???). They should all be treated as roughly equal, except for Yuugi, who is stated to possess the greatest physical strength out of them. From there we can scale Yukari to this group, as she has fought Suika many times in the past. I unfortunately could not find a source for her supposed superiority to Suika, so we should replace that on her profile. That's it for Gensokyo's scaling chain. Lunarians such as Yorihime and Toyohime should upscale from Gensokyo denizens as a whole based on this statement. From there, Eirin, being the one who originally taught the Watatsuki sisters and being one of the former highest authorities in the Lunar Capital, should upscale yet again. Sagume, Lord Tsukuyomi, and most lunar gods would be at this level as well. Junko upscales from the Lunar Capital as a whole, as she is depicted as a significant threat to it. She also straight up killed Houyi, a lunar god. And Hecatia... is Hecatia. We all know where she sits in the scaling chain.

So here's what the scaling chain looks like. We can use this to roughly categorize everyone else based on their own scaling.

Hecatia >>> Junko > Lunar Capital god tiers (Eirin, Sagume, etc) > Watatsuki sisters > Suika, Kasen, & Yukari > Reimu >/= Shion > Tenshi > Hermits > Kishin > Regular oni > Lord Tenma > Megumu > Aya & Hatate > Doremy

A few miscellaneous things to note:

-Sakuya was unable to harm Tenshi with her knives, meaning she must be below Celestial tier in the scaling chain. However, Tenshi does acknowledge her strength, so she isn’t too far below that level.

-Vampires are considered some of the strongest youkai in recent history, making them somewhat comparable to other ‘strong’ youkai species like tengu and oni. However, considering Remilia lost against various strong youkai during the vampire incident, this is probably where she peaks. Though, considering Suika has this to say about Remilia, that might be a little generous. The only reason I’m not using that to discredit scaling Remilia to oni entirely is because 1. Trash talk like that is typical in spell card duels and 2. Suika is a member of the Big Four of the Mountain, which means Remilia could still scale to regular oni while being inferior to Suika.

-Youmu was unable to harm Keiki's ceramics, which would include Mayumi, with Mayumi being designed to fight beast spirits like Yachie and Saki, who scale off of Yuuma, who fought Flandre (in an assassination attempt, making spell card rules meaningless), with Flandre being far stronger than Remilia. This means Youmu is at best comparable to Remilia, while the Animal Realm group and anyone comparable to them is above oni tier. Although Marisa implied one of Youmu's attacks would be serious if it hit her, this is harder to quantify than the actual scaling shown, and could maybe potentially be death manip or some other form or durability negation based on the “touch it and death creeps up” comment. Should also mention that Saki is stated to be "the strongest beast spirit", so she likely upscales a fair amount.

-Koishi is, surprisingly, very high into the scaling chain given how Kasen considers her 'ridiculously strong'. Kokoro scales off of being her rival.

-Mokou's durability scales to the weakest high tier playable character in Imperishable Night, as she was able to tank multiple serious attacks from them before 'dying'. Kaguya would scale to this level as well by virtue of killing Mokou regularly. Note that Mokou is likely a glass cannon, as her regular attacks deal recoil damage to herself, and her fire based attacks can destroy her body, implying she's overcoming her own durability in both cases. The latter has more examples, I just don’t remember them off the top of my head. I’ll track them down if needed, though.

-Marisa and Alice get additional upscaling from Kaguya, given how she considers them extremely strong, even relative to other lunarians, in one ending of Imperishable Night. Kaguya herself, being a member of Lunarian royalty, upscales from Doremy at bare minimum.

-Utsuho could very well be on par with Lunar Capital god tiers due to her main power source being Yatagarasu, a lunar god. I will say that the “Watatsuki sisters are more powerful than everyone in Gensokyo” line of logic doesn’t apply here (it never made much sense to me considering that statement also encompasses Eirin too), since it contradicts the established scaling. After all, Yorihime is actively amped by the lunar gods, so them being weaker than her makes very little sense. It's not really an outlier either, as we don't have much to suggest that anyone scales to Utsuho directly iirc.

-Nue should be at least above hermit tier, as Byakuren considers her superior to Ichirin.

-Marisa, despite lacking scaling on par with Reimu's, should still downscale from Reimu. When they fight, it is stated that while the fights between the two are skewed in Reimu's favor, Marisa still wins from time to time, meaning Marisa must have enough power and durability to contend with Reimu. However, part of the reason Reimu wins more often is because of her passive completely busted bullshit abilities, implying the two are about even in stats and Reimu just outhaxxes.

Oh btw Doremy is about several dozen universes into 2-C based on her danmaku patterns, while Tenshi is just a vague 'many' (though likely higher than Doremy based on their scaling).

We also need to nuke any "Comparable to (x)/( y)" justifications without good reasoning, with Reimu and Marisa being the main culprits. Feel free to add any scaling justifications you feel are missing, there are probably a lot.

Finally, the justifications for Tenshi and Doremy should be as follows. Tenshi should also get a note explaining why she scales to her dream self.

Her dream self was capable of shaking the Heavens, and was threatening to destroy them entirely. Heaven is composed of many separate realms that are both infinite in size, and as Otherworlds, should be brane worlds with their own laws of physics and flow of time.

Note: While Tenshi shaking the Heavens was performed by her dream self, dream versions of characters are treated as perfectly identical to the original in all categories save for personality. As such, it can be safely assumed that the real Tenshi could replicate this feat as well.

Can create, destroy, and eat dreams. Each dream contains multiple infinitely sized realms such as Hell and the Netherworld, and it is said that one can go anywhere within a dream, implying far more locations exist within them. She can also weaponize dream souls, which are the manifestation of one’s dream. In doing so, she can absorb several dream souls at a time from her foes, or shoot out dozens simultaneously in her danmaku patterns.

I thiiiiink that just leaves characters like Kanako, Suwako, and probably a few others I overlooked, though really, this is just a result of me being extremely tired. A lot's been going on on my end lately but I'll still try to update this when I can.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Btw if this is uncontroversial for the most part I can get started on the changes either tonight or tomorrow, I have a few days off work I can dedicate to this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One last thing before I go to bed, Suwako is superior to Kanako and apparently strong enough to impress Marisa, while Kanako is apparently strong from Reimu's perspective. So I guess that settles their place in the chain (likely above Reimu and Marisa).

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyone mind if I get started on applying the changes?

 

[ÆONS]

Anyone mind if I get started on applying the changes?

Confluctor's last response still hasn't gotten any reply and I don't know which side they picked exactly.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Confluctor's last response still hasn't gotten any reply and I don't know which side they picked exactly.

I did respond to them though. Either way, they seemed fine with the other 2 feats at minimum.

 

[ÆONS]

I did respond to them though. Either way, they seemed fine with the other 2 feats at minimum.

Guess I just didn't see it. Yeah, you can proceed with the changes.

Anyone else?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I won't be able to do the edits until like 10 pm EST tonight, rip.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

Any objections?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

**** it, I'll get started soonish.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edits are done. Feel free to close this.

 

[ÆONS]

Edits are done. Feel free to close this.

Is it fine to leave the character's Primordial Forms just Low 2-C? Would they be 2-C or am I missing something?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Eh... I'll say no. We have no reason to assume they scale to their avatars, and if anything, they should be weaker than their avatars due to their primordial forms being what they take on when lacking faith, and faith empowers gods. That, and the nature of their only scalable feat means it's either low 2-C or scales to the entire cosmology with no in-between.

 

[ÆONS]

Eh... I'll say no. We have no reason to assume they scale to their avatars, and if anything, they should be weaker than their avatars due to their primordial forms being what they take on when lacking faith, and faith empowers gods. That, and the nature of their only scalable feat means it's either low 2-C or scales to the entire cosmology with no in-between.

I guess it makes sense. That's it from my end though, so we're done.