Question about the New Gods

[Sandman31]

I dont know much about philosophy/metaphysics but are the New God's "Universals' or do they classify as Universals by "Universals", I mean these kind of universals

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Executor_N0/Universals:_Platonic,_Aristotelian,_Nominalist_and_Conceptualist_positions.

The universal is a metaphysical concept that characterizes a property or a relationship that can be exemplified by a number of different particular things. It is an idea or essence common to all things that we group under the same linguistic sign. Thus all things that are red have the redness in common, so the redness would be the universal and red things would be the particular.

They were described as powerful living ideas from a kind of platonic, archetypal world

"The New Gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a kind of platonic, archetypal world"

And when Batman entered the chamber of Darkseid he descibed it as:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1e-UE52vOi...klC2FnC3dRpKi2savd76o0xEsnVcODrcEJ0oR_v=s1600

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/1e-UE52vOi...klC2FnC3dRpKi2savd76o0xEsnVcODrcEJ0oR_v=s1600

"stepped through that door into a bigger, simpler world. A world where the stakes were the ultimate stakes, where each moment was heavy with the weight of unfolding myth...and everything had an extra meaning of layers. Like Darkseid. He might have been a wolf once, a dragon or a tyrant"

About Metron


GM: Maybe Metron is a little more literal and specific an image, but he's kind of like an angel ― an angel of electricity and writing and inspiration like all of those messenger/writer gods I mentioned above. So I see him as the headman, the Platonic form, behind guys like the Flash and all the electric-based heroes in the DC Universe"

About the radion bullet that killed Orion and wounded Darkseid

"An all purpose god-killing projectile that can be loaded and fired over and over again from any gun ever invented...essence of bullet"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/UyPSJZOnV8...AHaltcb6ZuB7he98a0RBN7PLPBaqHh5BhRTW_gH=s1600

"It was the blue print, the template for every bullet that have ever been. It was the original bullet that killed JFK, Martin Luther King, John Lennon, Ghandi...Archduke Ferdinand...Thomas and Martha Wane"

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, sorry, but you can ask Executor NO or Kevyn Souza for input.

 

[Sandman31]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew might be able to help as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A lot of these quotes align very well to the concept of platonic ideals and universals, albeit I don't think this makes them 1-A.

 

[Sandman31]

In Final Crisis, Nubia's wonder horn was also said to be given by the universals in the mythic time before time

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

> New Gods

> Them being 1-A

... What ? Can someone explain to me where Matthew got that from ?

 

[Sandman31]

Because Forms exists beyond the physical world and are aspatial and atemporal

Final Crisis implies that the New Gods are ideas that exists in a platonic realm. Grant Morrison even said that Metron is the Platonic Form of electric base characters in DC

 

[Sandman31]

Check Executor NO blog about universals

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hmm ..... I see. I recently just looked at the blog a moment ago to check it out. But Jeez... This would affect a lot of people in DC tier wise .

 

[Sandman31]

Well, this is only Q and A thread, so no revisions until I think of something that can justify an upgrade(?)

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I know. I was just looking into the future and thinking about if this was accepted later on .

Anyways... The theories and New Gods' nature seemed to have matched up.

 

[Antvasima]

The New Gods have otherwise simply been presented as 4-D entities that are larger than universes in their true forms. I do not think that we can impose the full scale of 1-A Platonic ideas on them.

 

[Sandman31]

Its weird for the residents of The God Sphere/Sphere of the Gods to be only 4 dimensional when it is located on a higher plane of existence than the 5-D bulk space that is The Bleed and 4-D brane-universes

Or am I missing something?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, in Multiversity, Grant Morrison presented them as entities that exist in each of the 52 universes in different incarnations via an extra spatial dimension, but you may have a point if the realm of Mxyzptlk and the other imps was placed below them.

 

[Sandman31]

Also, I think that the Monitors, in their "pure" form, before they were "infected" by stories, time and dualities could be 1-A. But I should probably make another thread about it

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe, but that seems too speculative.

 

[Sandman31]

Probably, but its not that farfetched

The Monitor Sphere directly touches the Overvoid as shown during the battle between Mandrakk and TR. That the the Nil is a realm of nothingless where form surrenders to the Overvoid

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sbjyc6H3QmY/VN4HitIITlI/AAAAAAAH_zg/0-0zh4U_PO4/s1600/p11_26.jpg

Zillo Valla also said that before they were contaminated, their world was timeless and is endless and beginningless.

Before they were contaminated, the Monitors doesnt have any personality or anything, their contact with the 'germs" was the reason why their nature changed, because they dont have defenses against stories and those foreign concepts

We saw these on Final Crisis, when the Monitors decided to merge with the Overvoid again, the Monitor Sphere was swallowed by the Overvoid

 

[Antvasima]

You do have a point, but within the multiverse they were simply presented as High 1-B.

And the New Gods have definitely never been remotely treated as 1-A characters. We would have to consider it as an inconsistency.

 

[Sandman31]

They could have another key (before being contaminated) or maybe an at least High 1-B or likely 1-A rating as they could possibly be 1-A.

Also, not pushing for 1-A New Gods, I know that would mess up the scaling

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems unnecessary. They have never appeared in any stories in their possibly 1-A forms.

 

[Sandman31]

I dont know, I just feel like High 1-B is still low

The Monitor Sphere isnt just a dimension in DC but is a world outside the story of DC and is the "edge of art" that directly touches the Overvoid. Where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid

But, lets discuss at another time, I'm going to sleep

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Cropfist]

Well, Darkseid's Soulfire form did match an embodiment of the Source.

 

[Antvasima]

That Jim Starlin story made absolutely no sense. It turned a transdual embodiment of nirvana into the In-Betweener split into parts, and severely contradicted Grant Morrison's Final Crisis event. I think that it is best to consider it as outside of regular continuity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's loose canon. Final Crisis takes place and was published after, and it does follow the ending of DotNG with New Genesis being destroyed, and Darkseid falling to the multivierse.

I assume it happened loosely.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but it completely contradicted the otherwise established nature of the Source.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, Final Crisis implies that it wasn't actually The Source, but rather physical embodiments of the Life Equation and the Anti-Life Equation. It called itself The Source, but wasn't literally it.

Personally, I quite like this solution. As it makes sense and fits with the story better.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that would work.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps you could place a better explanation about this at the bottom of The Source page?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, I can do that. Tomorrow I have the whole day off so that's good.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Sandman31]

Question about the Overvoid, why is it mindless when it was explicitly referred to as a "kind of abstract infinite intelligence"

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. We should probably change it. What do you think Matthew?

 

[Sandman31]

The Overvoid's intelligence was changed to mindless on the Writer thread

I don't think the Overvoid's is omniscient but I think that saying it is mindless is wrong as it has shown intelligence, it's a self aware void and the reason why it created the Monitor was so that it could learn about the "flaw". So its definitely not mindless

It's not meant to be understood as a character but it does seem to possess some kind of abstract intelligence

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that we could use your quote to describe it then.

Do you have a source available for it?

 

[Sandman31]

Here, Superman, while carrying the Book of Infinite Pages describesthe Monitor as "some kind of abstract infinite intelligence"

The Monitor-Mind investigating the Flaw

Here is Captain Adam trying to contact the Overvoid

The origin story of the Monitors was that when the Overoid first made contact to the story of the DC multiverse, it was infected by stories, infected with questions, pestilential crawling narratives.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will update the page accordingly.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so.

 

[Sandman31]

I think that seems unnecessary. They have never appeared in any stories in their possibly 1-A forms.

An uncorrupted Dax Novu was briefly shown in the Multiversity Guidebook, where he wasnt Mandrakk the Dark Monitor but the Science Monitor Dax Novu