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DC Comics "The Writer" and Overmonitor Revision

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VenomElite

VenomElite

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Matthew Schroeder and I have been discussing this for awhile now at the same time I had another revision in mind (which I'll get into later).

Matt and I believe that "The Writer" is the true supreme being of DC Comics and thus is possibly its Tier 0. We both combined our reasonings and came to the same conclusion.

Based off what Grant Morrison said in Animal Man #26, The Writer controls everything, but certain aspects of the writer only have written certain parts (Grant Morrison didn't write the backstory of Animal Man, another writer did, i.e. another aspect of the Writer). In DC, the highest beings view the rest of the world as fiction. Normally I understand some might strongly consider this Reality - Fiction Interaction but in truth, this is all fictional. If we accept that the Overmonitor (which is analgous to paper or a canvas) views the world as fiction, then why not The Writer?

Also, the Overmonitor was downgraded from Tier 0 to Likely High 1-A because something "drew on it without its consent" some force is able to shape that canvas and add anything they want to it. If we do not accept the Writer then logically, the Overmonitor should return to being Tier 0.

There are also stories here that we accept having some form of Reality - Fiction Interaction, for example, The Player (Undertale) and The Player (OFF) for example. Annoying Dog is also an author avatar of sorts, yet we accept those but not The Writer of DC.

In all fairness, I think we should consider accepting this.
 
I obviously agree with this. Reality - Fiction Hierarchies are commonplace in fiction, such as all the examples that Ven has listed. Furthermore, series like Umineko and Demon King Daimao are built on the foundation that a Higher-Being seems lesser reality as fiction, and if I'm not mistaken a character in Umineko is Ryukishi07's avatar.

Similarly, The Dark Tower treats Gan as having created the "Real World". Naturally, that is impossible and is ignored, but it fictions who treat their gods as having created us are accepted, just with theiri details removed, we should allow for an Author Avatar as being the Supreme Being.

Grant Morrison's DC Comics is all about breaking the 4th Wall and Layers of Fiction. The 5th Dimensional Imps treat the universe as fictional, and when Superman enters Mxy's realm he turns into a cardboard cutout. Similarly, characters in Multiversity find their own comics, even their own Multiversity Comics and read them, as it is explained that one world's reality is another's fiction. The Monitors are explictly stated in interviews to be the writers of the Multiverse, and all of the DC Creation is inside Destiny' s Book, which is implied to have been written by God.

God himself is but another idea spawned from the infinite canvas that is the Overvoid. And what is the Void? Grant himself explained in an interview:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2

IGN Comics: So that kind of answers my question, which is that the Monitors all seem like analogs for storytellers. There seems to be this never-ending cycle of the stories affecting the storytellers and the storytellers affecting the stories and on and on.

Morrison: Yeah, it's a bit of that. It's also the idea that they're like angels as well. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid ― as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

So it is really unfair to deny the logical extension of his cosmology to have a profile just because it is molded after him. If you actually read Animal Man 26, the whole comic is fiction within fiction. Grant Morrison the character who talks to Animal Man is actually just a construct being written by another Grant Morrison inside the comic, which the story also points out is fictional. The Writer is meant to be an allegory for all writers, it simply has Grant's face because he was that comic's writer.
 
I don't know how others feel about this. I do believe the Overmonitor should remain Tier 0 but I'm not sure about "The Writer". All we've seen is Grant Morrison, no other writer to confirm they are this transcendent being in different forms controlling everything. It is however, a possible interpretation.

Other such examples may be reliable. Featherine is not Ryukishi07 and is a completely fictional character. Therefore, her writing the story of Umineko is reliably part of that fiction. Plus, as you of all people should know, Umineko's cosmology is based off a composite reality-fiction hierarchy. Yes, Infinite Crisis and Multiversity were all about DC being fictional, but we need more input.
 
The thing is that if we are accepting The Overmonitor's lack of Omniscience (Which doesn't even make sense, as the Overmonitor is completely mindless), we have to accept that a writer wrote on it. We are accepting 1/2 of the biggest 4th Wall Break ever put into comic form... But not the other half.

To me that is exclusively done for downplaying.
 
i have heard about this writer-like being before, and if this is correct, then i am fine with a tier 0 writer and a tier High 1-A over-monitor
 
Isnt one of the rules exclsively to prevent profiles for the writer and tori-bot?

Personally im fine with this.
 
If we accept that not being omniscient =/= Tier 0, then Kami Tenchi wouldn't be due to fact that claimed he "forgot something". Even if he did, it wouldn't change that he is boundlessly above the Chousin, who are nigh omniscient. This is why I believe we need to revise the Law of Identity. Her saying she doesn't know what she can do is the same as Kami Tenchi saying he forgot. It's all about context.
 
To have Stan Lee cameo and wink at the audience is one thing, to have a story-arc long conversation about the nature of fiction and writing, and then later base your entire cosmology around reality-fiction duality is not comparable.
 
Hang on.. so why The Law of Identity is only high 1-A? it's because she wasn't fully omniscient? and I'm pretty sure Azathoth can get away with the lack of omniscient due to the fact that the entity is sleeping.
 
Well both examples of The Player here are more like the concept of the Player rather than a real person like Grant here. But otherwise, this seems reasonable I guess.
 
I have had discussions with DarkLK about both Reality - Fiction Interaction, and The Law of Identity.

In the former case, the problem stems from that if we break our own Wiki rule, we open the doors for any author avatars to be considered as tier 0, along with all of real world humanity, and then we end up at somehow having fist fights with ideas, words, and pictures again.

As such, my motivations are definitely not to be a downplayer. I am simply trying to think of the overall integrity of our system.

In the latter case, I wondered why TLOI was not considered to be tier 0, and he replied that it was due to that it did not know itself whether or not its power enabled it to do anything. Lack of omniscience is not the reason, but simply that it is uncertain if there is some minor limitation to its power.
 
The actual line for TLOI is pretty vague. Akuto asks what she can do and her reply is "Who knows?".

And I think your argument centers too much on the slippery slope, and one acceptance will most definitely not cause everything else to be accepted, nor will it ever crumble our system. People are smarter than that, and we already deal with people who don't get our system daily. One extra profile will not render things worst.
 
@Ant so why was the Overmonitor downgraded? If we don't accept The Writer, shouldn't Overmonitor be Tier 0? I remember DarkLK telling someone awhile back that the Overmonitor being Tier 0 makes more sense than High 1-A. But I am not sure.
 
Applying the concept of knowledge to a mindless thing never made sense to me, anyhow. The very reason the Overmonitor is downgraded was tied to The Writer. So we either accept it fully or not at all.
 
Well, technically we could make an exception, since it is important to you, and I am personally fine with TLOI being tier 0.

Then again, the slippery slope argument has validity for us, as members constantly assault me with demands whenever there exists the tiniest exception to a rule.

So, regardless whether or not people are smarter than that, they are always looking for a loophole to boost their favourite franchise, even if it is via author avatar characters. And then we end up as a wiki for having delusions about fighting with words and pictures.
 
The Overmonitor was downgraded because something happened against its wishes, i.e. the Multiverse was created. We do not have to focus on the metafiction subtext for the story to work.
 
Actually, we do.

The Overmonitor having a mind in any way makes little sense from an in-universe standpoint. It's literally a white canvas. It's more an "object" than a character. And for us to accept it being drawn by another entity... It's pretty obvious all these statements of something having drawn on it refer to a Real Life writer.
 
Well, okay then. Although you will have to take a look at our current rule for reality-fiction interaction author avatar characters, and come up with some way to reword it in order to make it work. You can message me about it when you are done.
 
Well, I am fine with either Tier 0 Overmonitor or The Writer profile. I'd prefer the later, but I would understand people being against it.

I'm also A-Okay with Tier 0 LOI.

Will see what I can do to expand the page.
 
I see. Yes, Keena asked what could the Identity do, to which she replied "I might not be able to do anything at all". She likely was referring to the ending Keena wanted. In the anime, that line is omitted altogether and she simply grants the ending Keena wants (they are one). I personally could argue for Tier 0 TLOI.
 
My opinion on the matter is this:

"Writer Avatars and significant 4th Wall Breaks should be evaluated as a case-by-case analysis, as not all of them are equal in merit and significance. Likewise, a few general rules of thumb should be held to them:

Firstly, no matter what the author's intentions are, fiction and reality can never fully interact. The real world, and real people can be simulated within fiction, but they will still be fictional representations and characters. As such, no fictional character can be responsible for the creation of "The real world".

Secondly, Author Avatars are not inherently bad, plenty of fictions use them in meaningful and relevant manners, in one way or another. There are plenty of games in which The Player is a part of the story proper, as well as numerous writings where the author proper is made present, either through an avatar or fictionalized portrayal. We have to see if the Author Avatar is relevant, or if it's just a wink towards the audience.

Thirdly, Author Avatars do not equate Omnipotence, and characters beating / killing their authors are not quantifiable nor meaningful feats. For instance, while the Lord of Nightmares beat her writer with a shovel, said "writer" was still a fictional character, and in no way, shape or form can LoN affect real people, or actually defeat her real world writer. Similarly, no one should look at Real Life humans as a "Tier 0 Species", simply because we can write stories."
 
Replace "Omnipotence" with "Tier 0". Otherwise, I like that rewording.
 
Preferably avoid creating any supposedly "all-powerful" 4th Wall-breaking real life author avatar characters (for example, Grant Morrison and Akira Toriyama), that blend reality and fiction too closely. It would open bad doors for members to start discussing real life humanity as an "omnipotent" species fighting with drawings and ideas, and essentially renders our entire tiering system meaningless. See here for further information. Exceptions have been made for Andrew Hussie, and the Annoying Dog. The former was not played as an invincible character within Homestuck, whereas the latter was not a true author avatar, just a joke character. They do not seem to break the system to nearly the same extent. Nevertheless, it is unwise to allow too many explicit author avatars, as they severely blur the line between fiction and reality.


... Mmh, how can we rewrite this.


Perhaps:

Preferably avoid creating any supposedly "all-powerful" 4th Wall-breaking real life author avatar characters, or Author Avatars in general. Before doing so, please read our "Reality-Fiction Interaction" page, and try to see if the character in question is significant within its story. Meaningless 4th Wall breaks and winks at the audience do not equate Tier 0 in any way, shape or form, and can potentially open doors for new members to start looking at Real Life humans as an "Omnipotent Species". Exceptions have been made for Andre Hussie, the Annoying Dog and DC Comics's "The Writer". The former was not played as an invincible character within Homestuck, whereas the second was not a true author avatar, just a joke character. Finally, the third is legimitaly at the top of Grant Morrison's DC Cosmology, and is ranked at Tier 0 not for being an "Author Avatar", but for what the character is in relation to everything else in DC Comics. Nevertheless, it is unwise to allow too many explicit author avatars, as they severely blur the line between fiction and reality.
 
I have made some minor modifications:

  • Author avatars and significant 4th wall breaking instances should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, as not all of them are equal in merit and significance. Likewise, a few general rules of thumb should be adhered to:
    • Firstly, no matter what the author's intentions are, fiction and reality can never fully interact. The real world, and real people can be simulated within fiction, but they will still be fictional representations and characters. As such, no fictional character can be responsible for the creation of "The real world".
    • Secondly, Author Avatars are not inherently bad, as some fictions use them in meaningful and relevant manners. There are several games in which the player is a part of the story proper, as well as numerous stories in which the author is made present, either through an avatar or fictionalized portrayal. We have to see if the author avatar is relevant, or if it is just a wink towards the audience.
    • Thirdly, Author Avatars do not equate tier 0 boundlessness, and characters beating/killing their authors are not quantifiable nor meaningful feats. For instance, while the Lord of Nightmares beat her writer with a shovel, said "writer" was still a fictional character, and in no way, shape or form can LoN affect real people, or actually defeat her real world writer. Similarly, no one should look at real life humans as a "tier 0 species", simply because we can write stories.
It is quite long for a single column editing rule though.
 
Good things Antvasima brought up.

That third rule is very good too. We can't blanket assume an author in their own verse is all poweful, unless they acknowledge the fact that, as the creator they can do and be immune to what they wish in the story, and nothing can challenge them whatsoever.
 
I made some modifications again:

"Preferably avoid creating any supposedly "all-powerful" 4th wall-breaking real life author avatar characters, or author avatars in general. Before doing so, please read our Reality - Fiction Interaction guidelines, and try to evaluate if the character in question is significant within its story. Meaningless 4th wall breaking, and winks at the audience, do not equate Tier 0 in any way, shape, or form, and can potentially open doors for new members to start looking at real life humans as an "omnipotent species" that can fight with ideas, words, and pictures. Exceptions have been made for Andrew Hussie, the Annoying Dog, and "The Writer" of DC Comics. The former was not played as an invincible character within Homestuck, whereas the second was not a true author avatar, just a joke character. Finally, the third has been established as an inseparable part of Grant Morrison's DC cosmology, and is ranked at Tier 0, not for being an author avatar, but for its established role in comparison to everything else within the franchise. Nevertheless, it is unwise to allow too many explicit author avatars, as they severely blur the line between fiction and reality."
 
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