Possible Pokemon Speed Downgrade.

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frankly I feel like Legendaries are in the real range due to Doom Desire and Luster Purge. I don't mind the 7-As getting downgraded, though Solar Beam should be a SoL attack as it fits several criteria. Not only is it stated to be light but it also comes from a legitimate source. I made a Pokémon GO calc for it but it was rejected (and berated) due to being from Pokemon GO. Then LGPE confirmed GO to be canon so...yeah.

 

[Drite77]

I mean, i think that there is other sources to find Rel speed for Third Stage Pokémon due to alot of moves being light, but this one in specific is not a good one.

BTW, can you link the Solar Beam calc?

 

[GyroNutz]

Also Solar Beam is literally called a sun beam. I have no idea why it's not LS, especially when it's seen coming from a sun in Gen 6 onwards and GO.

It doesn't come from a sun; it comes from a ball of energy shot up into the air.

Idk where it being called a sun beam comes from, but in the games it is never called actual light, but rather an energy beam with energy from the sun.

 

[Bobsican]

Wait, when GO was confirmed as canon?

 

[Drite77]

Cal saided that Let's GO confirmed the Pokemon GO as cannon, that s why i put the moves there in the profiles

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_real_cal_howard/Solar_Beam_and_Pokemon_GO_(..yep)

All it got was "No" and "Pokemon GO is not canon". Then LGPE came out.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Gyro. The anime.

 

[Drite77]

Umm, the Third Stage were not Rel at that point? Since Matt calls it a outlier

 

[GyroNutz]

>Sun Beam statement comes from gen 1 Ash, who likely hadn't seen the move before

Eh, idk. Pokemon GO and (some) manga interpretations of solar beam may be legit but I'm not sold on all interpretations of Solar Beam being SoL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The gap between the 8-As and the Low 7-Bs would be bigger than the gap between the Low 7-Bs and the 7-As anyway.

 

[Andytrenom]

The same anime in which solar beam can explode the things it hits?

 

[GyroNutz]

Relavistic final forms definitely isn't an outlier.

 

[Drite77]

I know, but Matt saided in that calc that it was

 

[Drite77]

Well, there must be something to calc seeing that is so consistent, i think that we could just put them at baseline Rel till we find something to calc

 

[GyroNutz]

https://www.********.tv/video/13-fighting-ire-with-fire
About 30 seconds in, Barry's Empoleon reacts to and blocks Mothim's signal beam.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The same anime in which solar beam can explode the things it hits?

Yes. The same anime where water explodes as well

 

[GyroNutz]

Quick question: Why didn't we default to using the Pokemon GO calc when LGPE came out?

 

[Drite77]

That light beam is to freaking slow too I see that it can give some nice results givem how close they are too each other

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, to answer any questions on the canonicity of GO

Meltan

Nuff said

 

[Xerkser500]

Just going to point out, any particular chance that the only reason these beams are "bending" is because they are being specifically focused on a target? Doom Desire was being aimed at a specific target and Poliwrath pushed them out of the way to be hit by it instead.

I know this wiki has strict LS standards but this seems to be overly dismissive. Also, yes Solar Beam uses the sun as it's light source. Why do you think pokemon who use moves like sunny day are able to use Solar Beam immediately? The "ball of light" argument is not an argument, that is just where the attack itself comes from. That doesnt disprove it uses sunlight as it's source.

 

[Drite77]

So i was digging out, and Power Gem could be considered a Sol attack, based on its description and anime interpretation

 

[Andytrenom]

I know nothing about the games but the anime portrayal of solar beam is the furthest thing from legit light I can think of.

I'm just gonna go over some scenes of it real quick.

 

[GyroNutz]

So i was digging out, and Power Gem could be considered a Sol attack, based on its description and anime interpretatio

Just a head's up; I couldn't find a scene where a Pokemon dodged Power Gem when I went looking for feats.

 

[Drite77]

Frick

 

[Xerkser500]

>Furthest thing from being legit light

Besides using sunlight as a source, being directly influenced by weather-condition moves (like Sunny Day, clouds blocking the sun and such), or the attack itself literally being a blast of light?

That doesnt sound like "furtherest from" at all.

 

[Andytrenom]

It uses sun to power up the move, the move itself doesn't come from the sun.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He said anime depiction

 

[GyroNutz]

being directly influenced by weather-condition moves (like Sunny Day, clouds blocking the sun and such)

The Pokemon gathers sunlight as an energy source then fires an energy beam from that energy at the opponent. Naturally it will be easier/harder to gather sunlight to fire off an energy beam in sunny/cloudy weather respectively.

 

[Xerkser500]

It uses sun to power up the move, the move itself doesn't come from the sun.

The Pokedex's description of the move in the anime disagrees with this. Dex literally says the move gathers light.

And even then, how can a move gather energy from the sun and not be LS? That to me seems like cherrypicking what the sunlight would apply to in the move itself.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Gen 6 onwards, it shows Solar Beam as creating a mini sun to fire a beam out of it.

 

[Xerkser500]

The Pokemon gathers sunlight as an energy source then fires an energy beam from that energy at the opponent. Naturally it will be easier/harder to gather sunlight to fire off an energy beam in sunny/cloudy weather respectively.

Yes and that doesn't mean that the move isn't using natural light, which is what im arguing against at the moment.

 

[Andytrenom]

Gen 6 onwards, it shows Solar Beam as creating a mini sun to fire a beam out of it.

Gen 6 is kinda where I fell of so I wouldn't know

Prior to that solar beam has always been depicted to be a lot more "tangible" than real light, splattering into streams when hitting an object, having a sonic boom like effect when being fired, colliding with other attacks to create explosions, pushing back pokemon, shattering things it hits into pieces and if there's a scene where it is actually pushed back by punches, kicks or anything like that I wouldn't be surprised one bit.

If all this gets rectified in gen 6 then cool I guess.

 

[Xerkser500]

Well on some of those points, even if those are the cases, remember that those scenerios happen when in battles. "Creating explosions when colliding with attacks" or having "sonic boom like effect" (funny thing: Sonic Boom and Solar Beam don't sound the same at all in the anime) or pushing pokemon back are just methods that are used to make the fight scenes look interesting. I mean, we even see water explode in Pokemon when its used in battle and unless your saying it should be depicted as "just a splash", it's obvious why its done like that. Doesnt mean it's not real water all of a sudden.

Solar Beam is an attack and it would be pretty strange to not make an attack look damaging in an actual fight.

 

[Andytrenom]

Problem is water doesn't have strict standards that need to be fulfilled in order to be considered "real water".

Considering something this contradictory to the properties of light as real light would be out of question for any verse, Pokemon shouldn't get a free pass just because it was meant to make the battles more interesting.

 

[Xerkser500]

That wasnt my point, and I know water standards are much much more leniant, I was only using it as an example as to why we wouldnt dismiss something being "real water" just because a water attack causes explosions in battle. So why should we do the same for light based attacks?

My point was that while light qualification standards are strict here, and should be, I honestly think that it's being too strict to an extent. Not just for Pokemon but for any verse in general. We shouldnt dismiss something as real light just because "it causes explosions", "pushes opponents back" or things akin to this. Fiction is inconsistent in general and if happening in fight-based scenes, it's obvious why things like that would happen so that fight scenes aren't made out to be boring.

If there are actual legitmate reasons not to accept something as LS, it shouldnt be based off those reasons is what im saying.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

so?

 

[GyroNutz]

Yes and that doesn't mean that the move isn't using natural light, which is what im arguing against at the moment.

It's not an argument for the move being natural light either

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Bump. This needs to be concluded.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am neutral here.

 

[Kepekley23]

There is zero proof Solar Beam is actually lightspeed, unless you also believe electricity stemming from Solar Panels ais lightspeed. The move just uses sunlight as a power source.