Demon Slayer Speed Downgrade [Warning: Massive Paragraph]

[Passersby]

literally every single thing here i've responded to already man

...well then, i must be blind because i genuinely can't see where you did


edit: just copy paste your counterarguments, because i'm pretty sure i addressed everything, perhaps i missed something?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with the thread.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I don't think Muichiro's extended range with Mist Breathing has been disproven yet, Gyokko notes his attack range (Manga, Anime) and all of the Slayer profiles have "Several meters with Breathing Techniques" in their range section. Sekido's lightning has been accepted as real lightning though since it can harm characters who scale to 0.8 Tons of TNT (above the 1.6 billion joule requirement), it can cause muscle contractions in those it hits even if you disagree with Cloud-to-Ground.

 

[Passersby]

I don't think Muichiro's extended range with Mist Breathing has been disproven yet, Gyokko notes his attack range (Manga, Anime) and all of the Slayer profiles have "Several meters with Breathing Techniques" in their range section. Sekido's lightning has been accepted as real lightning though since it can harm characters who scale to 0.8 Tons of TNT (above the 1.6 billion joule requirement), it can cause muscle contractions in those it hits even if you disagree with Cloud-to-Ground.

oh yeah, the topic on hand, i forgot about it with everything that was going on but i'm pretty sure i addressed that with

1 just because a pillar has a technique/has shown to have a very huge range doesn't mean all of them do, as that's a false equivalence fallacy

2 the extended melee range was taken into consideration in the calc and there was proper reasoning as to why the 10 fish per slash were used

The reason I chose 1000 is that all the corpses of fish the author drew have a uniform-ish prependicualr cut to the fish's length, close to a 90 degree, which makes it less likely that Muichiro optimized the angles of his cutting for maximum AoE since we would expect a lot more variable cross-sections.

add to that the fish were filled with poison so he would very much have to avoid them


3 the kyohai calc was much appreciated, i just saw it, thanks my good man


4 if there is any flaw/ uncertainty that still exists, please do tell me

5 please have a wonderful day

 

[SunDaGamer]

1 just because a pillar has a technique/has shown to have a very huge range doesn't mean all of them do, as that's a false equivalence fallacy

I'm specifically talking about Mist Breathing which does have an AoE attack with Third Form seen here which is made clearer in the anime and Gyokko notes the range of Sixth Form in both the manga and anime which I have already linked

 

[Passersby]

I'm specifically talking about Mist Breathing which does have an AoE attack with Third Form seen here which is made clearer in the anime and Gyokko notes the range of Sixth Form in both the manga and anime which I have already linked

i bleive i already addressed the third form

it shows him throwing away the remnants of the fish he slashed that are no longer functional and moving using the air currents to his advantage to do that, nowhere does it show a single breathing styles slashing 10k fish with a single AoE attack

gyokko was simply shocked about the increase of muichiro's speed and attack range and even exclaimed what happened to the poison which refers to the paralysis poison muichiro was affected with

there is also this

The reason I chose 1000 is that all the corpses of fish the author drew have a uniform-ish prependicualr cut to the fish's length, close to a 90 degree, which makes it less likely that Muichiro optimized the angles of his cutting for maximum AoE since we would expect a lot more variable cross-sections.

add to that the fish were filled with poison so he would very much have to avoid them

altough i am starting to lean towards decreasing the amount of slashes required seeing the third form's range, if only someone linked that sooner

 

[YeahhBoyee]

altough i am starting to lean towards decreasing the amount of slashes required seeing the third form's range, if only someone linked that sooner

Mate its been in the OP the entire time

 

[KingNanaya]

put me in for agree

 

[Passersby]

Mate its been in the OP the entire time

well **** me side ways, i'm ******* blind, god this is embarassing

pretend you saw nothing, but i still think the calc is usable, just decrease the number of slashes since his range seems to be higher than i tough with breath techniques,

the hunter's range needs to upgraded

**** i wanna go inside a hole


edit: oh wait, you didn't show the anime version, hell yeah!
my dignity is preserved

 

[Hieiq398]

I agree

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Before starting I want to say that I do agree with a few things, but I disagree with some other. I’m also a semi-anime only, that’s to say I’ve seen the entire anime and read the manga up to the Swordsmith Village Arc, so I can’t reply to your whole post. By the way, English isn’t my native language, so I apologize in advance for the mistakes I might make.

Debunking the Killer Fish Calc

We have seen that Breathing Styles allow for AoE attacks that could easily cut them all at once, shown here with Muichiro himself hitting all 10.000 fish with one slash.

I also think that the 10,000 fish calc isn’t MHS, but I disagree with Muichiro being able to cut all the fishes by swinging his sword once. The panel you provide does not shows Muichiro slicing the fishes, he just tossed them away with air pressure, and as far as I know he has never been shown to be capable of cutting stuff with something like a shockwave, in fact, the only slayer I know who has shown been capable of that is Sanemi.

And Breathing Style Techniques never consist of spamming a massive number of slashes

1.- Even if no other slayer has been shown to spam attacks with his breathing style, that does not necessarily means that Muichiro didn’t spammed slashes to cut Gyokko’s fishes.
2.- Sound breathing Fifth and Fourth form actually consist of spamming slashes, and Love breathing third form is similar, as the same panel you shared shows Mitsuri “cutting“ various of Zohakuten’s lightnings.

here is Mitsuri's Breathing Style covering approximately 100x the necessary volume to completely vaporize that attack.

Mitsuri’s sword is evidently way longer than Muichiro’s, plus in the anime her swords seem to be capable of extending.

Debunking that the Fish must have been at least the speed of sound

You can actually tell that Gyokko’s attack was serious as he got (really) pissed off when Muichiro told him his pots were deformed, in fact, the 10,000 fishes was Gyokko‘s last resort before transforming. By the way, Zenitsu has also been shown to move at supersonic speeds since his very debut, and Gyokko scales way above him and Kyogai, even if his attack wasn’t completely serious it is pretty safe to assume sonic speeds for the fishes.

I want to add that I'm not defending that Muichiro sliced the fishes ony by one, nor that he performed 5000ish swings, but slicing all the fishes by swinging his sword once sounds as improbable as slicing them one by one. I actually calculated this feat again here and managed to get the maximum number of fishes that Muichiro could have cut with every slice of his sword, although it hasn't been revised yet.

Debunking the Six-Fold Thunder Flash calc

I agree with the calc for Zenitsu not being valid as the spider brother was never shown to have such a low reaction time.

Zenitsu's speed scaling across the series seems arbitrary

Mostly agree as God Speed actually increases Zenitsu’s speed (although by an unknown amount like you said).

Massive calc stacking + Many, if not all, speed calcs are based off the Muichiro calc

Mostly agree as there is a calculation that shows base Mitsuri moving at low hypersonic speeds (I know this isn’t even close to MHS, but I’m just showing that not all the verse’s speed is based on the fishes calc).

No evidence for Kaigaku being comparable to previous UM6

I’ll skip this since I haven’t reached that part of the manga yet.

Even if Kaigaku is as strong as previous UM6, he is still not Massively Hypersonic

I’m going to skip most of the discussion here, but I’ll refer to this one part:

all the other Pillars are far superior to UM6. This is proven by Tanjiro, who could fight Gyutaro and deflect his attacks before he was Marked mid-fight

If I understand correctly, you are saying that Tanjiro was somewhat comparable to Gyutaro, which is simply not true. Tanjiro was way inferior to Gyutaro, in their first confrontation Tanjiro got instantly blitzed and only survived because Tengen saved him, in fact, Tengen saved him at least thrice during the whole battle. Tanjiro was indeed capable of deflecting Gyutaro’s attacks, yet not because of his strength, but because Water Breathing is more effective as a defensive style, in contrast, Tengen blocked and parried Gyutaro’s attacks by simply responding with more attacks. Tanjiro’s strength was nowhere near Gyutaro’s, as Tanjiro himself states, his katana would have broken if he tried to stop Gyutaro’s attacks through strength alone. Also, Tanjiro and Gyutaro barely clashed during the battle, Tanjiro was more of a support, the only part were they actually clash, was at the end of the fight after Tanjiro failed to cut his head, and Tanjiro could barely keep up with a Gyutaro who was still poisoned, he almost got killed actually (again), but Tengen interrupted and saved him (again). So no, Gyutaro is far stronger and faster than Tanjiro.

Therefore you cannot compare Zenitsu's attacks to actual Lightning

Agree, although I’ve never seen someone actually saying that Zenitsu is as fast as lightning just because of these metaphors or Lightning breathing.

Another false Speed of Lightning feat that is often brought up of is Mitsuri cutting Lightning. Now apart from the fact that real Lightning is immaterial and cannot be cut (and as we established, Demon Slayers aren't magical sorcerers so they don't have any superpowers like Haki to hit Lightning), we cannot assume that conjured Lightning has the traits of real Lightning.

Actually, real lightning is material, it is something like a huge but really short flow of electrons (and negatively charged particles) through air, something like a stream of water. The reason you can’t cut it is similar to the reason you can’t cut the water coming from a hose, plus they’re way too fast for anyone to try and cut them, and if you get too close to them, they’d probably go through your body and get you killed. So, you can sort of “cut” lightning, but that would most likely briefly interrupt the flow of electrons, like when you try to cut the water coming out of a tap, this pretty much explains why Zohakuten’s lightnings were still there after Mitsuri cut them. By the way, lightning summoned by Hantengu actually showed properties of real lightning, like being able to electrocute Tanjiro, Nezuko and Genya; and not being capable to flow through non-conductive materials like Urogi’s foot.

The Blood Demon Art in question was a combined attack of Thunder and Sound, and the panel clearly depicts that both the Sound waves and the Lightning strikes had roughly the same attack speed

There is no way to prove that from a single static image, in addition, the lightning bolts were clearly at ground level while the sonic wave still hadn’t reached Mitsuri.

Lightning moving more than 300.000x faster than Sound.

This is also wrong, the average speed for lighting is 440,000 m/s, while the speed of sound is 343 m/s, so lightning is 1283 times faster than sound, even the top speed for lightning is far from being 300,000 times faster than sound.

So either we have two massive outliers in a row of Mitsuri cutting Lightning effortlessly, only to immediately get hit by a Sound attack that is more than 300.000x slower than the Lightning attack she just countered

This is no anti-feat, Mitsuri got caught into Zohakuten’s sonic wave because it was an AOE attack and she was in mid air, so there was no way she could have dodged and getting covered would have been useless, yet she actually defended herself from the attack by tensing her muscles before getting hit, this was explicitly stated by Zohakuten plus we can see Mitsuri keeping his stance even though she was unconscious, which is a consequence of her tensed muscles.

Gyutaro being hit by a Kunai from one of Tengen's wives

I think it’s pretty clear that Gyutaro just got caught out of guard, Tengen had just cut his legs and he was still staring at him right before getting hit by the kunai. This happens all the time in anime/manga/comics/movies/etc., so it’s nothing to worry about.

Muzan not being able to dodge a point-blank explosion

I haven’t reached that part of the manga yet, so I can’t reply.

Genyu used a conventional shotgun against Upper Moon 4 and successfully landed multiple hits.

That is not a conventional shotgun as Tanjiro stated it smelled like a nichirin blade. One of the panels you just provided clearly shows how Sekido saw the bullets before they hit him and you also skipped the part where Tanjiro tells Genya that Hantengu’s clones were letting him behead them on purpose, you can even see Karaku smiling after getting his head cut off. Aizetsu let Genya hit him since he had already pierced him and was expecting Genya to die in the next few moments, plus they didn’t really care about getting shot since they could regenerate immediately, just like Aizetsu did. There is even a panel were Sekido blocks one of Genya’s shots, which makes sense as Sekido was being more serious than the other emotions, who were pretty much toying with Tanjiro and company.


I didn't read all of the replies before writing this, so I might be repeating a few things.

 

[Passersby]

actually calculated this feat again here and managed to get the maximum number of fishes that Muichiro could have cut with every slice of his sword, although it hasn't been revised yet.

Just saw this in my notifications and i'm glad i did, my friend you're meticulous in your calcs, that's damn impressive

But even taking that into consideration the time frame used in the calc is wrong, the calc assumes he was falling as he was performing the attacks which he wasn't, the fish were all slashed as he was floating mid air, (1:15) meaning he performed all the attacks before he even starts to fall making the time frame orders of magnitude shorter than the calc assumed it was

Which is in the triple digits Mach speed (assuming 100 fish per cut which i usually so as a low ball), I just have no idea how to calculate the time frame from that really

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

It proves AOE is something Breathing Techniques can do, that itself makes the calculation very questionable.

No offense, but this reasoning is quite similar to the one used by flatearthers when trying to disprove pictures taken from space, it goes something like this: “Pictures from space can be easily faked, therefore they’re fake”. In essence, the reasoning is the following: “If there is a manner for a thing to be a certain way, then that thing is undoubtedly that way”, which makes no sense as you can see from the flat earth argument. The thing is that even if AOE attacks are possible for a few slayers, there is no actual reason to think Muichiro is capable of doing the same as Mitsuri, and there is various reasons to think this: Muichiro has never displayed such type of techniques, his third form is air pressure, not actual cuts; no other slayer has been shown capable of doing something like Mitsuri, the closest examples I can think of are Dead Calm and Sanemi’s attacks, Dead Calm is kind of an AOE move, but it is a defensive technique, not an offensive one, plus it has far less range than Mitsuri’s, and Sanemi’s moves are more of highly ranged attacks rather than AOE ones, they cover large distances, but relatively small areas/volumes; and finally, being Mitsuri the only slayer that has displayed AOE attacks, she’s casually the slayer with the longest sword of them all, which clearly means that the fact she’s capable of AOE attacks is directly related to the exceptional lenght of her sword, besides, the provided anime fragment clearly shows Mitsuri performing various slashes before the dragons where cut, which ultimately means that was no AOE attack at all, but rather quick and consecutive slashes, which given the length of the sword managed to cover a relatively large volume.
So the “AOE attack” argument doesn’t really holds.

They're visibly moving at similar speeds, the fact that they both threaten the same character itself makes it really clear that they can't be thousands of times apart in speed

They're not, there is simply no way to claim two or more objects are moving at the same speed from a single static image, plus the lightning bolts were clearly at ground level when the sonic waves hadn't reached Mitsuri yet, and there is no denying it.

The assumption that the electricity is as fast as natural lightning is shakey to begin with.

I agree with this one, artificial lightning/electrical discharges (as I prefer calling it) have been proven to be slower than natural lightning here and here. Although there is a lot of calculations in VSB (and other places) where they use the speed of natural lightning for artificial ones, so all of those calculations should be fixed consequently.

And? The guy doesn't use breathing techniques, he literally just shoots stuff out of it [...]

The shotgun was specifically built to kill demons, plus it was stated to be made out of nichirin, which is definitively no ordinary material, the speed of its bullets was never stated too, so there is no actual reason to think they were equally fast as the bullets from a regular shotgun. And I already showed how Hantengu's emotions were actually capable of seeing and reacting to the shotgun's bullets on a previous reply, plus it was stated they were purposely allowing Genya to hit them, so I ask you to check that reply I made please.

I mean an AOE effect does undoubtedly exist around the sword strikes

They don't and there is no reason to believe they do as Mitsuri was the one and only example of this and I already showed how his attack actually consisted of multiple high-ranged slashes.

He was definitely having trouble. Granted, part of that is because he was injured, but he considers the attacks to be incredibly fast regardless.

I partially agree, Tanjiro didn’t defeat Kyogai with ease, that’s undeniable, yet he never stated that his attacks were “incredibly fast”, but just “fast” as the panel you provided shows. Although it isn’t like he had a lot of trouble dodging Kyogai’s attacks, the first time he did it was a pretty much a surprise attack, plus he had some broken bones and was holding a girl on his arms, the real trouble started when Kyogai also started to make the room spin around.

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

Nichirin metal doesn't differ significantly from normal metal when it comes to weight or aerodynamics, seen with the nichirin blades basically being regular metal katanas. There's no reason Genya's guns would shoot faster than a regular gun

Well, this is simply false, appart from being capable of changing color, etc., nichirin blades can be incredibly durable if the user is skilled enough. Nichirin katanas have been shown capable to cut bullets, solid rock, metal, steel and materials even harder than diamond, no regular katana could ever do that, even if you were super skilled and had superhuman strength, you'll never be able to slice a 2 meters boulder with a katana as the blade would just break on impact. Not to mention nichirin is one of the very few materials that can actually kill magical beings like demons.
There is also no reason to think that Genya's shotgun is as fast as regular shotgun, since it's simply not a regular gun.

 

[Passersby]

snip

...my friend this is an old thread, they've probably unfollowed it, either that or that was automatically done

just leave it to die, just let it be

edit: also made a thread arguing about huantengu's lightning being cloud to ground a long time ago here

DM about it if you'd like to discuss stuff

 

[RoggerReggor]

Had a feeling this was going to happen one day.

Agreed.

 

[Viott]

There is this one MHS calc that you didn't address.

I thought the 1/220 timeframe was no longer used?

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

...my friend this is an old thread, they've probably unfollowed it, either that or that was automatically done

just leave it to die, just let it be

edit: also made a thread arguing about huantengu's lightning being cloud to ground a long time ago here

DM about it if you'd like to discuss stuff

I'm sorry, but it is kind of disturbing to see how so many people can agree with all that's said here despite so many points being completely wrong. Like Gyutaro and the kunai, if we applied that logic then Gin > Hogyoku Aizen, or Sorbet’s ring > SSB Goku, Nami > Luffy, Tank Top Master > Human Garou, incredibly large etc.; or the “AOE attacks” stuff, like, the only character who was supposed to show AOE attacks was Mitsuri and that’s completely false as it’s explicitly shown in the fragment of the anime provided by the author of this thread himself, and Tengen doesn’t even counts as his blades are different from the ones all the other slayers use (explicitly stated in the manga again); the fact that they also claim the lightnings and sonic waves from Zohakuten to have the same speed just because of a single static image is nuts, I just can’t comprehend how could someone ever get to such a wrong conclusion, even the anime shows the lightnings hitting the ground first as you can see the soil being tossed away before Mitsuri dodged the attack; I could just continue, but I’d be repeating myself. And it’s not that I completely disagree with everything here, but some stuff is undeniably wrong.
This just shows the people who completely agree with this either didn’t read the full post, or they’re just biased against Demon Slayer.

 

[Arkenis]

• Gyutaro being hit by a Kunai from one of Tengen's wives
• Muzan not being able to dodge a point-blank explosion (this was notably before the plot device drug nerfed him)
• Genyu used a conventional shotgun against Upper Moon 4 and successfully landed multiple hits.

I won't address the calcs, but these instances aren't really showing much context at all, for one the kunai throw is while Gyutaro is focused on Tengen and is in mid air and lost his feet, its just not a clear showing of lower speed.

I can't even say anything about the Muzan one cuz there's just one panel given for it.
And Genyu is clearly not using a conventional shotgun here if Tanjiro can tell its using nichirin rounds.

 

[Passersby]

they’re just biased against Demon Slayer.

that's your answer, i have no idea why but a lot of people are, you'll get used to it eventually lol

I can't even say anything about the Muzan one cuz there's just one panel given for it.

nothing can be said, the explosion happened and muzan was caught in it, altough it's more likely than not a special anti demon gun powder like the one used against gyutaro so it's detonation velocity is largely unkown

 

[FelpeXDopZ]

that's your answer, i have no idea why but a lot of people are, you'll get used to it eventually lol

Well, that's kind of disappointing. Also, how can I dm you? I’m sorry, but I’m still quite new to this

 

[Zeinx1]

i agree

 

[Epyriel]

I agree the Muichiro fish calc should be replaced, but I strongly disagree with all the offered MHS “anti-feats” FRA.

The MHS scaling can simply be replaced with the upper end of the Mitsuri calc now that Hatengu's electricity has been accepted as real lightning.

 

[Viott]

Also, this calculation should be removed as it is different in the manga.

Tanjiro dodge lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Passersby]

Also, this calculation should be removed as it is different in the manga.

Tanjiro dodge lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com

Feat exists

Not sure what's different


Also this thread is old af, someone should close it