Demon Slayer Speed Downgrade [Warning: Massive Paragraph]

[YeahhBoyee]

Part 0 - Introduction

The main purpose of this textwall was initially just debunking the Muichiro Killer Fish calc, which is quite fishy (pun intended) and then, well i just kind of found more and more issues and found myself writing a whole wall of text. I've been following Demon slayer intently since before the anime started, so i have a fair amount of knowledge and investment in it. Don't take this as me just dunking on other people's work, i appreciate the calcers whose calcs i talk about, i just feel like i can contribute something by providing honest criticism and improve a lot of the scaling here.

tl;dr

A few speed calcs and some of the scaling is wrong (i provide detailed reasons + sources as to why) and there is a general lack of Massively Hypersonic feats outside of the Killer Fish calc which i will disprove shortly. A few of the remaining calcs also exist seem to me to be very generously interpretations of panels, the anime usually disagrees with the calc's interpretation and some of the arguments within the calcs are based on unproven or false assumptions. In the speed section of DS profiles, there's also a massive amount of Calc stacking which is understandable since there isn't any power level or other quantifiable factor to scale anyone - but it does lead to scaling certain characters such as Upper Moon 6 wrong, which i of course also provide sources for. There is some faulty logic that doesn't hold up even if all calcs and numbers are correct, which i also discuss in great detail.

So here is my extended reasoning for why we need to revisit, and probably downgrade, most of the Demon Slayer verse's speed:

Part 1 - Debunking the Killer Fish Calc

• Part 1.1 - Debunking that 5000 Slashes were used to counter the attack

As of now, the Demon Slayer verse is Massively Hypersonic, mostly due to this calculation of Muichiro slicing 10.000 fish. The calc assumed that he sliced 5000 times in a very short time frame. This is a completely baseless assumption and the reason why such a ridiculous result such as Mach 500 was the result of the calc.

We have seen that Breathing Styles allow for AoE attacks that could easily cut them all at once, shown here with Muichiro himself hitting all 10.000 fish with one slash. He does this about 5 seconds after slicing all the fish, so i am not sure why the assumption is that he had to slash at every single fish. There is absolutely no evidence in the manga that Muichiro used 5000 slashes, in fact it's shown that he hit all of them with one technique. And Breathing Style Techniques never consist of spamming a massive number of slashes but are always a set number of practiced, repeated sword motions. Not to mention, the anime scene clearly shows the fish weren't sliced on a individual basis. And just to absolutely prove that being able to hit that many fish in one slash is not some outlier - here is Mitsuri's Breathing Style covering approximately 100x the necessary volume to completely vaporize that attack. While she uses a different Breathing Style, she scales to Muichiro as a fellow Pillar so his overall abilities shouldn't be too far off from hers.

While the calc is already disproven, since the number of slashes was not anywhere near 5000, there is unfortunately another disagreeable part of the calc i will go over.

• Part 1.2 - Debunking that the Fish must have been at least the speed of sound

The calculation sets the attack's base speed at Sonic due to the assertion that in order to hit Pillars, the attack must have been at least Sonic speed. The reasoning being:

Spamming attacks stated to be at the speed of sound is done by low-mid tier characters such as Kyogai, but with sound speed it would be impossible for the fish to come close to chasing or overwhelming a Pillar-level opponent as Gyokko is expecting, as shown by these examples: Example 1 - Example 2 - Example 3 - Example 4 - Example 5. Gyokko was even made aware previously that Muichiro is faster than the average Pillar, so Gyokko wasn't under the impression that Muichiro was a fodder. Hence, sonic speed for the fish would be a reasonable low-ball since we know the fish are significantly faster than that by an unknown magnitude.

I do not disagree with all of the claims. There isn't any other way to know how fast this attack was, so assuming they were a certain speed is not inherently wrong, it's the only way to scale this. And the provided Supersonic feats seem to be valid (i had to use Web archive to view them since the links unfortunately expired), and i also certainly agree that they prove Gyokko can use Supersonic attacks. The issue for me lies in the various other claims this paragraph makes. First, to get an unrelated statement out of the way, Gyokko has created fish monsters so weak that normal, untrained blacksmiths were able to run from them and hold them off for a while, which to me is somewhat of an Anti-feat and weakens the claim that he only threw out Supersonic attacks against a Pillar. But apart from this perhaps subjective observation, there are some incongruities in this paragraph's rationalization that this attack must have been Sonic speed.

• Firstly they claim "with sound speed it would be impossible for the fish to come close to chasing or overwhelming a Pillar-level opponent as Gyokko is expecting,", however the attack didn't come close to overwhelming a Pillar, it was dealt with by Muichiro rather easily (both in manga and anime) thus we have no guarantee of its speed by the calc's own logic.
• Secondly, the paragraph speaking of Gyokko taking Muichiro seriously is completely false; Gyokko was immensely underestimating Muichiro throughout the entire fight and refused to use his transformation, which elevates his speed into another level according to Gyokko himself, despite having many openings to do so with his teleportation. Hence he was absolutely not taking Muichiro seriously until after he transformed. And as the "Killer fish" happened before then, it was not even a serious attack from Gyokko.
• Third, the OP asserts "Gyokko was even made aware previously that Muichiro is faster than the average Pillar", however the Pillars Gyokko uses as baselines have not managed to kill a single Upper Moon in 100 years and the current generation of Pillars are completely incomparable to the previous ones. There is an abundance of proof for that, which i linked.

In conclusion, the assumption that Muichiro used 5000 slashes is either false or unproven, depending on wheter you include the anime. And the claim that the fish were sonic speed is not necessarily false, but unproven due to the fact no feat or scaling were used to prove this, but instead a rationalization which, in my opinion, does not really hold up.

Part 2 - Debunking the Six-Fold Thunder Flash calc

I have also noticed Demon Slayer Profiles generally just calc stack speed massively [more on this later], even though there is no power levels or other quantifiable indicator for speed and have a general lack of calcs and sources backing them up. As example I will use Zenitsu's profile who is the speedster of the verse.

Zenitsu's SoS speed is put at Hypersonic+, based on a Speedblitz calc that i will address shortly being faster than Tanjiro (which is a reasonable assumption), but i went to Tanjiros profile to see why he is Hypersonic at the start of the series, and found this calc which, i won't go into as the comment section already thoroughly debunked it. Instead i will focus on a calc of Zenitsu using Six-Fold Thunder Flash to travel a set distance faster than the eye can see. Given the demon blitzed was complete fodder (significantly weaker than the weakest Lower moon), a normal humans reaction speed was used as baseline for how fast Zenitsu must have moved.

The reaction speed used? 0.0082 seconds.

If that sounds absurdly fast to you for human standards, that’s because it is. As the calc's comment section has pointed out, a human’s visual reaction speed is much slower, at a mere 0.04 seconds our eyes' Shutter speed can't keep up anymore, thats how we can watch videos at 30 FPS. Furthermore, the jump has six stages, meaning the demon did not necessarily lose track of Zenitsu during the entire technique, and the anime even shows the demon tracking the first two of Zenitsus six movements, however the manga version can in all fairness reasonably assumed to be a complete speedblitz. If you disregard the anime, that just leaves the reaction speed of 0.0082 being off by magnitudes. Im not a math expert or calcer by any means but this is unfortunately very obviously miscalculated. It would take a calcer to determine the exact numbers, all i know is that it's in need of correction.

Part 3 - Addressing the Calc stacking

• Part 3.1 - Zenitsu's speed scaling across the series seems arbitrary

Even if the calcs were all correct, and even accounting for the lack of power levels in Demon Slayer, the calc stacking on the profiles is pretty nuts. The speed for Zenitsu's Entertainment District Arc lists him at High Hypersonic reactions again, and higher with God Speed due to blitzing Daki. While i will remark that blitzing Daki is not a High Hypersonic feat because she doesn't scale to Pillars or anyone with High Hypersonic speed due to this calc being wrong, God Speed was stated to increase Zenitsu’s speed by an unknown amount so this is valid.

Continuing with Zenitsu's speed profile, during the Hashira Training Arc he suddenly jumps to Massively Hypersonic. There was never any quantifiable feat or statement Zenitsu had that we can use either to scale how much stronger he's gotten, or any Massively Hypersonic feat he's had since then. Therefore, the only way to scale this speed is by scaling him to other characters.

• Part 3.2 - Massive calc stacking + Many, if not all, speed calcs are based off the Muichiro calc

And indeed Zenitsu's explanation for now being Massively Hypersonic and jumping up a Speed tier is due to being “comparable to Tanjiro and Kaigaku” in that arc, with no Massively Hypersonic feats. Kaigaku's profile only states he is comparable to Zenitsu, with no feats, so I go to Tanjiros profile. Tanjiro's Massively Hypersonic speed in that arc due to being comparable to Akaza, again no feats, so I got to Akaza's profile. Akaza's Massively Hypersonic speed is due to being comparable to Marked Giyuu (again no feats), I go to Marked Giyuus profile, and Giyuu is Massively Hypersonic due to being superior to Muichiro (AGAIN no feats), and Muichiro is Massively Hypersonic because of the Killer Fish calc that is completely wrong.

… so apparently the entire verse's speed is dependant on that one Killer Fish calc being correct, and there is a distinct lack of specific Massively Hypersonic feats.

• Part 3.3 - No evidence for Kaigaku being comparable to previous UM6

Moving on, the final Speed for Zenitsu, during the Final Battle Arc, is higher than Massively Hypersonic. This is based on Zenitsu blitzing Demon Kaigaku, certainly an impressive feat but unfortunately not quantifiable due to Demon Kaigaku not having a single appearance or feat apart from losing to Zenitsu. The only method you could use is to compare him to Upper Moon 6, who he replaced, and scale from there, unfortunately there is no evidence he is as strong as Upper Moon 6.

If you think i am being too harsh for saying that him being a replacement does not make him as strong as Upper Moon 6, i have a lot of evidence for it:

First and most importantly, this statement implies that he was not yet Upper Moon level, which contradicts that assumption. A demon's strength is highly dependent on the amount of blood received from Muzan, and on the amount of humans they consume. While Kaigaku was stated to have received a greater amount of blood then usual, it was impossible for Kaigaku to have eaten even remotely as many people as Daki and Gyutaru combined over 113+ years in the very short time between UM6's death and the Final Battle arc, and before his Demonification Kaigaku had been a failed senior apprentice comparable to SoS Zenitsu ("If i'm trash, then you're garbage"), whereas Pre-Demonification Gyutaro was described as a monster who while heavily injured, blitzed a trained adult Samurai. So there are many reasons to believe he was inferior to Gyutaro in speed.

But i went to Kaigakus page to see what feat was listed in order to say that blitzing him means Zenitsu is higher than Massively Hypersonic. And Kaigakus profile says he is Massively Hypersonic not because he's relative to Upper Moon 6 (Who is only Massively Hypersonic due to that debunked Muichiro calc), but because he kept up with Zenitsu. Who himself has no Massively Hypersonic feats apart from fighting Kaigaku. So like i said, there's a lot of calc stacking and a distinct lack of actual feats supporting the speed tiers the calc stacking pushes the characters into.

• Part 3.4 - Even if Kaigaku is as strong as previous UM6, he is still not Massively Hypersonic

Logically, in order for Kaigaku to be Massively Hypersonic, Upper Moon 6 would have to be Massively Hypersonic, since the only possible way to quantify the speed of Kaigaku who is otherwise featless is to assume he is about as strong as the previous UM6, which scales to Pillars, which scales to Pillar feats such as the Muichiro calc. But the series directly contradicts Upper Moon 6 scaling with Pillars not named Tengen. While Tengen was clearly shown to be weaker than Gyutaro and needed help to defeat him, all the other Pillars are far superior to UM6. This is proven by Tanjiro, who could fight Gyutaro and deflect his attacks before he was Marked mid-fight, after which he cut his head off, being directly stated to be inferior to all other Pillars after he was Marked. I even feel so strongly about this that i don't think i need to write a paragraph for this, just about anyone who follows the series knows that the idea of comparing UM6's strength to other Pillars like Sanemi, Gyoumei or even Muichiro is laughable. So i am not sure why Gyutaro is even listed Massively Hypersonic, even if one were to use the Killer Fish calc he does not scale to Muichiro, who killed a stronger Upper Moon with ease, whatsoever, and i am completely confused about the even weaker (and slower) Tengen being Massively Hypersonic, who was blitzed by Gyutaru on multiple occasions and only barely kept up due to his intense preparation and it being a 7v2. No calculation is needed in order to determine he is nowhere near Marked Muichiro's speed and shouldn't be scaled off the Killer Fish feat even if the numbers on that calc were correct. And the same goes for Gyutaro.

This means that, even if we assume Kaigaku is equal to Gyutaro, despite the various issues i listed in Part 3.3, this still does not scale him to Muichiro, which means he still has no evidence for being Hypersonic. And you cannot scale Kaigaku above Gyutaru when there's a statement that implies the opposite. So even assuming the calc is correct, you still cannot use it to get him to Massively Hypersonic. Which also means that Zenitsu blitzing Kaigaku is not a Massively Hypersonic feat. The entire calc stacking chain falls apart at it's root.

Part 4 - Anti-Feats and Outliers

• Part 4.1 - Clearing up confusion about "Speed of Lightning"

Demon Slayers, Zenitsu included, don't actually summon their element. Unlike Demons with Blood Demon Arts, the Demon Slayers are humans, not sorcerers. Therefore you cannot compare Zenitsu's attacks to actual Lightning, just as Tengen does not attack at the speed of Sound just because he has Sound breathing. Zenitsu only has metaphorical statements such as "his step was like a flash of lightning" but no actual statements like "He's moving as fast as lightning". Also, Zenitsu being Lightning speed due to emulating real Lightning has a glaring logical flaw, because Zenitsu has always been using the Lightning Style. If that was what made him Lightning speed, he would be that fast at Chapter 1, even back when he was far inferior to all Pillars, which would put the top tiers somewhere in the FTL realm (?) by multiplicative scaling and completely destroy all logic and coherence.

Another false Speed of Lightning feat that is often brought up of is Mitsuri cutting Lightning. Now apart from the fact that real Lightning is immaterial and cannot be cut (and as we established, Demon Slayers aren't magical sorcerers so they don't have any superpowers like Haki to hit Lightning), we cannot assume that conjured Lightning has the traits of real Lightning. The Blood Demon Art in question was a combined attack of Thunder and Sound, and the panel clearly depicts that both the Sound waves and the Lightning strikes had roughly the same attack speed, and moved towards Mitsuri at the same attack speed, and that they were cut at the same time despite Lightning moving more than 300.000x faster than Sound.

This by itself proves to me that the Blood Demon Arts are not necessarily emulating every trait of the real entity they are copying. But let us say they do. Then we run into this problem:

Upper Moon 4 also hit her with a scream that, if we claim that the Blood Demon Arts emulate natural properties, could not have moved slower or faster than the speed of sound. If the Lightning attack is Lightning speed due to emulating the speed of Lightning, the Sound attack must be Sound speed due to emulating the speed of Sound waves. So either we have two massive outliers in a row of Mitsuri cutting Lightning effortlessly, only to immediately get hit by a Sound attack that is more than 300.000x slower than the Lightning attack she just countered, or the attacks are completely disconnected from their real-life traits, since we are talking about magical attacks produced by magical Demon blood. It seems obvious to me which scenario makes more sense.

• Part 4.2 - Anti-Feats:

Here are some instances of Massively Hypersonic+++ opponents being hit by attacks they should be able to dodge. This is not to say that some of these people are not Massively Hypersonic, or to downplay the verse, but could be useful in re-evaluating the actual speed of the verse, since i believe i have made a pretty good case for a lot of things that need to be fixed.

• Gyutaro being hit by a Kunai from one of Tengen's wives
• Muzan not being able to dodge a point-blank explosion (this was notably before the plot device drug nerfed him)
• Genyu used a conventional shotgun against Upper Moon 4 and successfully landed multiple hits.

Part 5 - Conclusion

To summarize, the Speed section of Demon Slayer profiles needs to be revisited. Even if the verse is actually at Massively Hypersonic, the current reasoning on the profiles does not hold up to closer examination and the profiles also partly contradict each other.

Whew. Thanks for reading that wall of text, or whatever part of it you read.

 

[Armorchompy]

This seems to make sense to me, minus a few nitpicks.

 

[Armorchompy]

There is this one MHS calc that you didn't address.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Agree with everything.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

There is this one MHS calc that you didn't address.

True, because when i wrote my essay this calc looked good to me, but also, it's Prime-Muzan not even drugged up so that didn't exactly help the verse as a whole scale up. But someone on a different thread said that the calc was against the rules. Im fairly new to the forum, i thought 1/220 was kinda reasonable for a Lower Moon but if its against the rules its against the rules. But regardless, its definitely the most solid calc the verse currently has, until someone gets around to calcing Yoriichi hitting 1500 pieces of Muzan that are all moving in different directions.

 

[Excellence616]

Make sense

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Everything is good and the scaling is great. But this also affects the AP ratings but leave that for later.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

True, because when i wrote my essay this calc looked good to me, but also, it's Prime-Muzan not even drugged up so that didn't exactly help the verse as a whole scale up. But someone on a different thread said that the calc was against the rules. Im fairly new to the forum, i thought 1/220 was kinda reasonable for a Lower Moon but if its against the rules its against the rules. But regardless, its definitely the most solid calc the verse currently has, until someone gets around to calcing Yoriichi hitting 1500 pieces of Muzan that are all moving in different directions.

We might be getting 1/500th reaction times for humans soon so don't count it out just yet

 

[ShadowSythez]

Agree. Not to mention several other things wrong with calculations you mentioned.

 

[Armorchompy]

We might be getting 1/500th reaction times for humans soon so don't count it out just yet

How "soon"? Cause if it's "we're gonna be posting a CRT any day now" then sure, but I'd rather not halt a revision with "there's one in the works, eventually"

 

[PrinceofPein]

It looks okay

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[SuperStar]

So Mitsuri dodging lightning is invaild now?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

How "soon"? Cause if it's "we're gonna be posting a CRT any day now" then sure, but I'd rather not halt a revision with "there's one in the works, eventually"

Voice your opinion and it'll be sooner


That's all we're waiting on rn

https://vsbattles.com/threads/vsbattle-wiki-revision-perception-blitzing.156368/

 

[TimmyTurnero]

There is this one MHS calc that you didn't address.

The problem here is the fact that he uses the anime, in the manga it’s made clear that he didn’t travel a great distance. While it’s less detailed, it depicts him traveling over 60m which in no way is implied in the manga. Also accounting for the weird timeframe I don’t think it’s a good calc.

 

[Passersby]

minor nitpicks

We have seen that Breathing Styles allow for AoE attacks that could easily cut them all at once, shown here with Muichiro himself hitting all 10.000 fish with one slash

the video you provided shows him throwing away the remnants of the fish he slashed that are no longer functional and moving using the air currents to his advantage to do that, nowhere does it show a single breathing styles slashing 10k fish with a single AoE attack, not a single demon hunter has ever shown such technique

He does this about 5 seconds after slicing all the fish, so i am not sure why the assumption is that he had to slash at every single fish

i also don't understand this one?
are you implying he got rid of the fish remnants 5 secondfs after he slashed all of them?

i think you misunderstood the calc, that's not the part where he slashed all the fish,

this is, and he needs physical and actual slashed to cut all of them,

There is absolutely no evidence in the manga that Muichiro used 5000 slashes, in fact it's shown that he hit all of them with one technique

it was an educated guess/an entrepretation based on the cirumstances and the context of how the feat was performed, and i'm prett sure they used the variant where he slahed 10 fish per sword swing on average, meaning we assumed he performed about 1000 slashes and not 5000

it was explained in the comments, since i just checked

The reason I chose 1000 is that all the corpses of fish the author drew have a uniform-ish prependicualr cut to the fish's length, close to a 90 degree, which makes it less likely that Muichiro optimized the angles of his cutting for maximum AoE since we would expect a lot more variable cross-sections. Also, the timeframe for Method 2 allows for the fish in the back to get close to Muichiro's position.

And Breathing Style Techniques never consist of spamming a massive number of slashes but are always a set number of practiced, repeated sword motions

giyuu's dead calm seems to be different, it was also never assumed they were sliced on an individual basis it was assumed he slashed 10 fish per sword swing on average, and considering the very anime scene you linked shows muichiro using multiple sword slashes as well as the fish being in 5 packs that are decently apart from each other, i really don't see how the calc is invalid

And just to absolutely prove that being able to hit that many fish in one slash is not some outlier - here is Mitsuri's Breathing Style covering approximately 100x the necessary volume to completely vaporize that attack

annnd you prove yourseldf wrong with the very next words

While she uses a different Breathing Style, she scales to Muichiro as a fellow Pillar so his overall abilities shouldn't be too far off from hers.

she uses a different breathing styles as in a different sword style with different techniques and has way more range with her sword, their techniques sword styles and range differ way too much for you to make any proper analogy, they scale to each other in strenght speed (somewhat doubtful consiering kokushibo casually blitzed marked muichiro and literally dodoged his sword that was centimiters from reaching his nech while an unmarked sanimi was able to keep up with him) and maybe skill, which is again doubtful but what isn't doubtful is misturi has way more range than muichiro

The issue for me lies in the various other claims this paragraph makes. First, to get an unrelated statement out of the way, Gyokko has created fish monsters so weak that normal, untrained blacksmiths were able to run from them and hold them off for a while, which to me is somewhat of an Anti-feat and weakens the claim that he only threw out Supersonic attacks against a Pillar.

...uhh

so the fact that he threw weak fodder summons at weak fodder characters disproves and weakens the notion that he massively upscales from kyogai who can casually spam sound speed attacks?

what does that have anything to do with the speed of the fish he threw at the not so fodder pillar he was facing?

at best that just proves his fish summons are weak, not that his attacks are slow

Firstly they claim "with sound speed it would be impossible for the fish to come close to chasing or overwhelming a Pillar-level opponent as Gyokko is expecting,", however the attack didn't come close to overwhelming a Pillar, it was dealt with by Muichiro rather easily (both in manga and anime) thus we have no guarantee of its speed by the calc's own logic.

it didn't because he got the mark and thus a significant speed boost, and it really doesn't help your case that gyokko was shocked about muichiro's speed and attack range, meaning he absolutely expected the fish to ovewhelm him

Secondly, the paragraph speaking of Gyokko taking Muichiro seriously is completely false; Gyokko was immensely underestimating Muichiro throughout the entire fight and refused to use his transformation, which elevates his speed into another level according to Gyokko himself, despite having many openings to do so with his teleportation. Hence he was absolutely not taking Muichiro seriously until after he transformed. And as the "Killer fish" happened before then, it was not even a serious attack from Gyokko.

this isn't the face speech, reaction or demeanor of a guy whose attack wasn't serious

he already started taking muichiro seriously after he almost slashed his neck, which happened before he used the 10k fish attack

Third, the OP asserts "Gyokko was even made aware previously that Muichiro is faster than the average Pillar", however the Pillars Gyokko uses as baselines have not managed to kill a single Upper Moon in 100 years and the current generation of Pillars are completely incomparable to the previous ones. There is an abundance of proof for that, which i linked.

well, he did almost slashed his neck, if that's not an indication of "this guy is faster than everyone i've ever faced before" i don't know what is



part 2 however, i'm quite new here, so i'd assume it's due to fodder demons being consistently subsonic trough the anime and manga such as tanjiro moving fte agaisnt sabito (2:21) with thanjiro stating the fight ended in an isntant, genya's mother killing his siblings without him being able to see her and even thinking she was a wolf, That scene is unquestionably FTE since the demon had time to slash five people and jump to the ceiling in front of a suspicious Genya before he figures out what is going on, the temple demon does so as well (6:27)

part 3,1 and 3,2 seems to be addressing the lack of feat, which is true i guess
demon slayer is all this guy blitzes this guy who blitzes this guy who blitzes this guy.....and it goes on

so you have all the characters upscaling from a single feat or 2, there isn't much you can do really

First and most importantly, this statement implies that he was not yet Upper Moon level, which contradicts that assumption

and for kaigaku, this statement simply implies he wasn't familiar with his techniques, not that he wasn't uppermoon level anc considering muzan agreed to put him at uppermoon 6 as a replacement and kokushibo chose him and gave him some of his blood, he must have been at the very least, deceently strong as a demon hunter himself before turning into a demon and eating humans


and might i add unmarked sanemi is way stronger and faster than marked muichiro, so nothing is really set in stone

and overall i am confused at how to scale really anyone, so just put kaigaku at at most MHS

Another false Speed of Lightning feat that is often brought up of is Mitsuri cutting Lightning. Now apart from the fact that real Lightning is immaterial and cannot be cut (and as we established, Demon Slayers aren't magical sorcerers so they don't have any superpowers like Haki to hit Lightning), we cannot assume that conjured Lightning has the traits of real Lightning.

and a classic appeal to reality fallacy

and what i mean by that is the scene you provided actually without a doubt contradicts the real life limitation, saying "that's possible possible irl so it shouldn't be possible in fiction" really isn't an argument or even a point someone should make really

and the fact that tanjirto states she cut trought it all as well as the fact their weapons themselves are supernatural in nature doesn't really help your argument
we have no reason to assume they cannot cut trough t lightning with their weapons you provide proper evidence that they can't

The Blood Demon Art in question was a combined attack of Thunder and Sound, and the panel clearly depicts that both the Sound waves and the Lightning strikes had roughly the same attack speed, and moved towards Mitsuri at the same attack speed, and that they were cut at the same time despite Lightning moving more than 300.000x faster than Sound.

the panel you provided shows the lightning bolts reaching the ground before the sound waves despite a further distance away from it, in fact i would like you to give me a proper explanation and evaluation as to how you even came to the conclusion that they have the same attack speed?

ignoring the fact that the lightning which is at a further distance reached the ground first as shown in the panel, even if it didn't there is a lot of interpretations to such a scene such as the lightning attack was performed as soon as the sound reached the ground

adding to the fact that those are completely different blood demon arts

how are people always blind to the fact that zohakuten absorbed all the emotion clones's blood demon arts and is using them all via the wood dragons as a medium

he used aizetsu's spear projection

karaku's wind blasts

as well as sekido's lightning and urogi sonic scream, you already have the panels showing that

he can also use them without the wooden dragons as shown here and here

well, i already made a thread about zohakuten's lightning being sky to ground and thus being real lightning and it was accepted so this point is moot

Upper Moon 4 also hit her with a scream that, if we claim that the Blood Demon Arts emulate natural properties, could not have moved slower or faster than the speed of sound. If the Lightning attack is Lightning speed due to emulating the speed of Lightning, the Sound attack must be Sound speed due to emulating the speed of Sound waves. So either we have two massive outliers in a row of Mitsuri cutting Lightning effortlessly, only to immediately get hit by a Sound attack that is more than 300.000x slower than the Lightning attack she just countered, or the attacks are completely disconnected from their real-life traits, since we are talking about magical attacks produced by magical Demon blood. It seems obvious to me which scenario makes more sense.

that's something that can be explained in-series by the character being caught off-guard by an invisible AoE attack, Mitsuri was also unaware of Zou Hakuten's fullset of abilities, and was planning to behead him and retreat as soon as she lands on the ground,she beheaded him but she heard tanjiro\s exclamation while in mid air, reacted to it then an unexpected invisible AoE attack hit her before she lands on the ground ,she was basically rushing into him and was caught by surprise mid-air by an invisible AoE sound attack as she was distracted by tanjiro's exclamation, this really doesn't count as much of anti feat

and even without all of that, this would be a low outlier we can just ignore

Gyutaro being hit by a Kunai from one of Tengen's wives

hit by said kunai from his blind spot after having his feet slashed off being in mid air and giving tengen all his attention, how is this exactly an anti feat when he made no effort to even dodge it?

Muzan not being able to dodge a point-blank explosion

this one is true, altough it can easily be dismissed as an outlier considering all the previous showings of speed in the verse

Genyu used a conventional shotgun against Upper Moon 4 and successfully landed multiple hits.

the gun is made with nichirin metal and as shown, the same gun can even block a strike from kokushibo's sword, that gun is supernatural in nature so there is no definite speed you can to it's projectiles


welp, may not continue to argue tbh

little busy

 

[InvisibleInternetMan]

Nichirin metal doesn't differ significantly from normal metal when it comes to weight or aerodynamics, seen with the nichirin blades basically being regular metal katanas. There's no reason Genya's guns would shoot faster than a regular gun

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Just pointing out, his sword could hit up to 5 fish within a single thrust, and he’s literally swinging at an angle. With all these fish (supposedly 5,000) being ontop of each other, within a single swing he could knock off several dozen but to believe he deliberately swung slightly and picked each fish off one by one is not only baseless but unreasonable.

I also don’t believe any demon should be SoS without evidence, the drum Demon has an attack that literally moves in correlation with the Drum’s sound because of the nature of his art, and Tanjiro couldn’t react to that in the slightest.

 

[Passersby]

Nichirin metal doesn't differ significantly from normal metal when it comes to weight or aerodynamics, seen with the nichirin blades basically being regular metal katanas. There's no reason Genya's guns would shoot faster than a regular gun

the "normal" Nichirin metal gains various special properties based on the owner and his Breathing technique can change colors depending in the one who touches the wodden handle of the blade it's made out of, can turn red because of the swordsman's grip strenght and it and gets more durable the more skilled you are ect, it's basically a supernatural metal

unless you provide evidence against that fact there is no reason to bleive that gun shoots bullets at normal speed given the speed scaling of the characters

just like this one

Just pointing out, his sword could hit up to 5 fish within a single thrust, and he’s literally swinging at an angle. With all these fish (supposedly 5,000) being ontop of each other, within a single swing he could knock off several dozen but to believe he deliberately swung slightly and picked each fish off one by one is not only baseless but unreasonable.

i blieve i already addressed this

it was an educated guess/an entrepretation based on the cirumstances and the context of how the feat was performed, and i'm prett sure they used the variant where he slahed 10 fish per sword swing on average, meaning we assumed he performed about 1000 slashes and not 5000

it was explained in the comments, since i just checked

The reason I chose 1000 is that all the corpses of fish the author drew have a uniform-ish prependicualr cut to the fish's length, close to a 90 degree, which makes it less likely that Muichiro optimized the angles of his cutting for maximum AoE since we would expect a lot more variable cross-sections. Also, the timeframe for Method 2 allows for the fish in the back to get close to Muichiro's position.

there was also 10K fish and it's not baseless nor unreasonable given the circumstances, plus they were filled with poison so i can see him trying to avoid them, either way, this still holds

all the corpses of fish the author drew have a uniform-ish prependicualr cut to the fish's length, close to a 90 degree, which makes it less likely that Muichiro optimized the angles of his cutting for maximum AoE since we would expect a lot more variable cross-sections

I also don’t believe any demon should be SoS without evidence, the drum Demon has an attack that literally moves in correlation with the Drum’s sound because of the nature of his art, and Tanjiro couldn’t react to that in the slightest.

...what do you even mean here?

tanjiro explicitly stated those attacks are at the speed of sound, and he was having zero trouble dodging them until kyogai started spamming his techniques and making the room spin, not to mention he was severely injured and felt pain just by walking and specifically stated he couldn't use his full strenght in that fight

and i just checked, he had no trouble dodging his attacks even before he started aim dodging, it's really all on you to prove otherwise really

 

[Armorchompy]

she uses a different breathing styles as in a different sword style with different techniques and has way more range with her sword, their techniques sword styles and range differ way too much for you to make any proper analogy, they scale to each other in strenght speed (somewhat doubtful consiering kokushibo casually blitzed marked muichiro and literally dodoged his sword that was centimiters from reaching his nech while an unmarked sanimi was able to keep up with him) and maybe skill, which is again doubtful but what isn't doubtful is misturi has way more range than muichiro

And? It proves AOE is something Breathing Techniques can do, that itself makes the calculation very questionable.

the panel you provided shows the lightning bolts reaching the ground before the sound waves despite a further distance away from it, in fact i would like you to give me a proper explanation and evaluation as to how you even came to the conclusion that they have the same attack speed?

They're visibly moving at similar speeds, the fact that they both threaten the same character itself makes it really clear that they can't be thousands of times apart in speed. The assumption that the electricity is as fast as natural lightning is shakey to begin with.

that's something that can be explained in-series by the character being caught off-guard by an invisible AoE attack, Mitsuri was also unaware of Zou Hakuten's fullset of abilities, and was planning to behead him and retreat as soon as she lands on the ground,she beheaded him but she heard tanjiro\s exclamation while in mid air, reacted to it then an unexpected invisible AoE attack hit her before she lands on the ground ,she was basically rushing into him and was caught by surprise mid-air by an invisible AoE sound attack as she was distracted by tanjiro's exclamation, this really doesn't count as much of anti feat

That makes no sense given that she can react to and dodge the sound attacks just fine, which would make no sense if they were invisible to her.

and even without all of that, this would be a low outlier we can just ignore

hit by said kunai from his blind spot after having his feet slashed off being in mid air and giving tengen all his attention, how is this exactly an anti feat when he made no effort to even dodge it?

I agree with this, it definitely looks like he was taken by surprise.

the gun is made with nichirin metal and as shown, the same gun can even block a strike from kokushibo's sword, that gun is supernatural in nature so there is no definite speed you can to it's projectiles

the "normal" Nichirin metal gains various special properties based on the owner and his Breathing technique can change colors depending in the one who touches the wodden handle of the blade it's made out of, can turn red because of the swordsman's grip strenght and it and gets more durable the more skilled you are ect, it's basically a supernatural metal

And? The guy doesn't use breathing techniques, he literally just shoots stuff out of it, no evidence that it'd work any worse if someone weaker was wielding it (not that he's very strong to begin with). There's zero evidence that the Nichirin's materials have actual effect on the ballistics, hell it's not like the construction of a gun or the material it's made of is the primary factor in its bullets' speed (barrel length does matter though), is it firing with Nichirin Gunpowder?

there was also 10K fish and it's not baseless nor unreasonable given the circumstances, plus they were filled with poison so i can see him trying to avoid them, either way, this still holds

I mean an AOE effect does undoubtedly exist around the sword strikes so I definitely think it's a big highball

tanjiro explicitly stated those attacks are at the speed of sound, and he was having zero trouble dodging them until kyogai started spamming his techniques and making the room spin, not to mention he was severely injured and felt pain just by walking and specifically stated he couldn't use his full strenght in that fight

and i just checked, he had no trouble dodging his attacks even before he started aim dodging, it's really all on you to prove otherwise really

He was definitely having trouble. Granted, part of that is because he was injured, but he considers the attacks to be incredibly fast regardless.

 

[Passersby]

And? It proves AOE is something Breathing Techniques can do, that itself makes the calculation very questionable.

no, it proves AOE attacks is something mitsuri can do, not literally eveyone else

They're visibly moving at similar speeds, the fact that they both threaten the same character itself makes it really clear that they can't be thousands of times apart in speed. The assumption that the electricity is as fast as natural lightning is shakey to begin with.

"visibly move at the same speed", this is a manga, you literally can't see them move and you ignored a huge portion of my argument since, again, the lightning hits the ground before the sonic scream blood demon art does even when it's further away from it, and there multiple interpretations of this manga panel, such as the lightning hitting the ground first (as shown in the panel) then the sonic scream reaches the ground or the sonic scream reaching the ground then zohakutten unleashing the lightning attack etc



plus the only times mitsuri was even "threatened" by sonic screams is when she was caught extremely off guard, zohakkuten almost exclusively uses lightning against her and only used that attack once, in which the circumstances allowed him to land a hit

That makes no sense given that she can react to and dodge the sound attacks just fine, which would make no sense if they were invisible to her.

she can sense invisible attacks, doesn't really change much of my point tho

with season 1 tanjiro dodging mach 1 attacks even when injured and the pillars being so far above him it's ridiculous, yes, that would be an outlier

there is also an explnaation as to why she was hit by that attack in my post as well

And? The guy doesn't use breathing techniques he literally just shoots stuff out of it, there's zero evidence that it'd work any worse if someone weaker was wielding it (not that he's very strong to begin with). Hell it's not like the construction of a gun or the material it's made of is the primary factor in its bullets' speed (barrel length does matter though), is it firing with Nichirin Gunpowder?

point still stands, nichirin metal is a supernatural metal and thus it's bullet speed is unknown

just like this gun

unless there is evidence to the gun shooting bullets at normal speed despite hitting characters that massively upscale from season 1 tanjiro who can dodge sound speed attacks even while injured and can even do this, it simply doesn't

the fact that it hits such characters necessitates the fact that the bullets are faster

I mean an AOE effect does undoubtedly exist around the sword strikes so I definitely think it's a big highball

mitsuri has an AOE attack with her sword style and way more range with her sword, yes,

muichiro doesn't, he never demonstrated any AOE technique and so far the argument is "he may have one because mitsuri also has one", which is a completely flawed analogy as their fightning styles sword styles and even their swords aren't the same, mitsuri's sword is in the form of a whip if anything

this is basically a false equivalence fallacy

He was definitely having trouble. Granted, part of that is because he was injured, but he considers the attacks to be incredibly fast regardless.

as i said and as your panel proves, he was having no trouble with the speed of sound attacks alone, he only started having trouble when kyogai started spinning the room with his BDA and attack him with the mach 1 attacks at the same time which demonstrates that mach 1 attacks are nothing to even an extremely injured season 1 tanjrio

i would like you to use the full panel next time not crop it btw

 

[YeahhBoyee]

no, it proves AOE attacks is something mitsuri can do, not literally eveyone else

Using different Breathing Styles doesn't mean its plausible for Mitsuri's Breathing Style to be 1000x better in any one area when they both use variations of the same power pool and are similar in strength even within the Pillars (Muichiro beating UM5/Mitsuri holding off UM4), the only Pillar you could even try to downplay not to have large AoE attacks in their arsenal based off Mitsuri's feats is Tengen, oh wait

"visibly move at the same speed", this is a manga, you literally can't see them move

Saying the combo attack threatening the same character isn't moving at relative speeds to each other is already a shaky assumption, and you can in fact see them move at the same speed in the anime. At no point in anime or manga is the lightning implied to be much faster, or slower, than his other attacks.

I also need you to understand how illogical it is to argue Mitsuri is Lightning speed based off this fake Lightning feat, while at the same time taking for granted the Sound attacks which were produced in the same way by the same demon at the same time were all faster than Sound. By saying that the Sound attacks are faster than Sound, you have already disconnected them from their real-world equivalent and accepted that Hantengu's Blood Demon Arts are magically produced imitations of the real thing that don't move at the real speed.

You can't just pick and choose by which rules of logic each of his attacks operates to scale the verse up lol

the lightning hits the ground before the sonic scream blood demon art does even when it's further away from it, and there multiple interpretations of this manga panel, such as the lightning hitting the ground first (as shown in the panel) then the sonic scream reaches the ground or the sonic scream reaching the ground then zohakutten unleashing the lightning attack etc

You already disproved your own point about Lightning hitting the ground first ("we literally cant see them move"/"there are multiple interpretations").

plus the only times mitsuri was even "threatened" by sonic screams is when she was caught extremely off guard, zohakkuten almost exclusively uses lightning against her and only used that attack once, in which the circumstances allowed him to land a hit

The only attacks threatening her were the Sonic scream, and this Wooden dragon which she only survived because Hantengu died, but no lightning attack. Also your claim he exclusively used lightning is completely wrong, he used many attacks on her including multiple sonic attacks.

point still stands, nichirin metal is a supernatural metal and thus it's bullet speed is unknown

Its properties are explained in detail. Its a metal that can absorb more sunlight than any other metal and has otherwise no special properties or powers. This is evidenced by the fact that Demon Slayers using Nichirin swords don't get any superpowers, or any buffs, granted by it, low rank Demon slayers holding a Nichirin blade are still fodder. And bullet aside since the gun itself has no special properties, the Nichirin bullet could not possibly reach higher speeds than the firing mechanism of an early 1900s conventional double-barreled shotgun can allow for, it's not as if the bullet can fire itself.

just like this gun

...that's a screenshot from the fight with Kokushibo, after Genya eats his cells and unlocks a Blood Demon Art. Note how i did not mention Genya hitting Upper Moon 1 with the gun as an Anti-Feat in the OP, but did mention Upper Moon 4 being hit by a non-magical conventional gun.

unless there is evidence to the gun shooting bullets at normal speed despite hitting characters that massively upscale from season 1 tanjiro who can dodge sound speed attacks even while injured and can even do this, it simply doesn't

The way i see it, as Genya is using a conventional gun, you have the burden of proof. Even if it was an outlier that doesn't mean the anti-feat didn't happen, both can be true at the same time, the question is not about denying reality by saying Genya shot faster but how much weight that outlier has weighed against more consistent speeds in higher realms.

Since you presented an actual speed feat we can say UM4 is easily Supersonic. But by how much? Do you have any quantifable speed differences between these characters UM4 upscales from, do you know just how much faster UM4 is than SoS Tanjiro? If not, how do you know if he's 10x faster than Supersonic, in which case he could still easily be hit by bullets, or 10000x faster?

I am not down with "massively upscaling", as you put it, the whole verse into ridiculous proportions by saying Character A is Speed X because this character blitzed this character blitzed this character who is as fast as this character who has the actual feat, with literally 0 feats in-between this chain or even quantifiable speed differences. its calc stacking and ends up creating a ton of contradictions. That's the state the verse is currently in which i was attempting to fix with the OP.

muichiro doesn't, he never demonstrated any AOE technique

t. my first paragraph in this reply.

as i said and as your panel proves, he was having no trouble with the speed of sound attacks alone, he only started having trouble when kyogai started spinning the room with his BDA and attack him with the mach 1 attacks at the same time which demonstrates that mach 1 attacks are nothing to even an extremely injured season 1 tanjrio

Not sure why we are discussing Kyogai here but it has 0 relevance to the OP, so i'll leave myself out of that part of the discussion.

 

[Passersby]

Using different Breathing Styles doesn't mean its plausible for Mitsuri's Breathing Style to be 1000x better in any one area when they both use variations of the same power pool and are similar in strength even within the Pillars (Muichiro beating UM5/Mitsuri holding off UM4), the only Pillar you could even try to downplay not to have large AoE attacks in their arsenal based off Mitsuri's feats is Tengen, oh wait

and again, a false equivalence fallacy, you even used tengen who also has a different build different fighting style and a different weapon that has chains and thus better range, wonderful

muichiro doesn't, he never demonstrated any AOE technique and so far the argument is "he may have one because mitsuri also has one", which is a completely flawed analogy as their fightning styles sword styles and even their swords aren't the same, mitsuri's sword is in the form of a whip if anything

i addressed it all again here

either way, a flase equivalence fallacy

Saying the combo attack threatening the same character isn't moving at relative speeds to each other is already a shaky assumption, and you can in fact see them move at the same speed in the anime. At no point in anime or manga is the lightning implied to be much faster, or slower, than his other attacks.

checked the anime already, at exactly 3:02, the lightning bolts outspeed the sonic attacks as soon as both the techniques are used depsite th lightning bolt being needing to travel a further distance, and even if that's not appearent, there is still the manga panel, where the lightning stikes reach the ground first before the sonic attacks despite being at a farther distance as well, which neither really helps your case that they're both the same speed

I also need you to understand how illogical it is to argue Mitsuri is Lightning speed based off this fake Lightning feat, while at the same time taking for granted the Sound attacks which were produced in the same way by the same demon at the same time were all faster than Sound. By saying that the Sound attacks are faster than Sound, you have already disconnected them from their real-world equivalent and accepted that Hantengu's Blood Demon Arts are magically produced imitations of the real thing that don't move at the real speed.

i have never stated that the sound speed attacks are faster than sound, where did you even get that?

You can't just pick and choose by which rules of logic each of his attacks operates to scale the verse up lol

...i still didn't

You already disproved your own point about Lightning hitting the ground first ("we literally cant see them move"/"there are multiple interpretations").

we still see the lightning hitting the ground first before the sound does, that is not an interpretation that is a fact

what is an intrepretation is maybe the lightning is slower and was used first then the sonic attack was used which made it seem like it was faster and it reached the ground first

how valid that entrepretation is however, is up to the rest to detrmine

The only attacks threatening her were the Sonic scream, and this Wooden dragon which she only survived because Hantengu died, but no lightning attack. Also your claim he exclusively used lightning is completely wrong, he used many attacks on her including multiple sonic attacks.

i said almost, but i guess i was wrong as he used multiple other attacks with varying speed

point still stands you're completely wrong and that sonic attack only "threatened" her due to the circumstances

that's something that can be explained in-series by the character being caught off-guard by an invisible AoE attack, Mitsuri was also unaware of Zou Hakuten's fullset of abilities, and was planning to behead him and retreat as soon as she lands on the ground,she beheaded him but she heard tanjiro\s exclamation while in mid air, reacted to it then an unexpected invisible AoE attack hit her before she lands on the ground ,she was basically rushing into him and was caught by surprise mid-air by an invisible AoE sound attack as she was distracted by tanjiro's exclamation, this really doesn't count as much of anti feat

Its properties are explained in detail. Its a metal that can absorb more sunlight than any other metal and has otherwise no special properties or powers. This is evidenced by the fact that Demon Slayers using Nichirin swords don't get any superpowers, or any buffs, granted by it, low rank Demon slayers holding a Nichirin blade are still fodder. And bullet aside since the gun itself has no special properties, the Nichirin bullet could not possibly reach higher speeds than the firing mechanism of an early 1900s conventional double-barreled shotgun can allow for, it's not as if the bullet can fire itself.

that metal changes colors gains different properties depending on the breathing style used turns red due the demon hunter gripping the wooden handle of the blade and not even the metal itself burns people on the cellular level, etc

unless you provide evidence that the gun made with a supernatural metal's bullets are the same as any gun despite it's bullers hitting characters who scale far above people who demonstrated speed that's more than fast enough to dodge mach 1 attacks even when they have a way better range is on you

...that's a screenshot from the fight with Kokushibo, after Genya eats his cells and unlocks a Blood Demon Art. Note how i did not mention Genya hitting Upper Moon 1 with the gun as an Anti-Feat in the OP, but did mention Upper Moon 4 being hit by a non-magical conventional gun.

they're both guns made with supernatural materials, that was my point

The way i see it, as Genya is using a conventional gun, you have the burden of proof. Even if it was an outlier that doesn't mean the anti-feat didn't happen, both can be true at the same time, the question is not about denying reality by saying Genya shot faster but how much weight that outlier has weighed against more consistent speeds in higher realms.

i am not denying reality, i am basing this on the fact that the gun itself is supernatural in nature and managed to land a hit on characters who have more than enough speed to dodge sonic attacks and thus it's bullet speed is unknown, you said it's not and that's it

the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for the fact that those bullets move at the same speed as a regular gun

Since you presented an actual speed feat we can say UM4 is easily Supersonic. But by how much? Do you have any quantifable speed differences between these characters UM4 upscales from, do you know just how much faster UM4 is than SoS Tanjiro? If not, how do you know if he's 10x faster than Supersonic, in which case he could still easily be hit by bullets, or 10000x faster?

because an unmarked giyuu managed to tie up Inosuke with a rope and then tie the rope to a tree trunk before Inosuke can perceive it

then because that's season 1 tanjiro who had so many powerups before and still can't compete against this guy

then there is same season 1 tanjiro not even having the ability to see rengoku and akaza's fights

then there is giyuu easily blitzing rui who tanjiro even after getting a power up mid fight could barely keep up with

basically the difference may be unquantifiable for now as there is a preception blitzing thread that got accepted so they most likey won't unquantifiable for long, but he is leagues above season 1 tanjiro in speed so much so 10 times woudn't cut it because you can still see a car moving at 200 km/h which is more than 10 times faster the average human running speed

I am not down with "massively upscaling", as you put it, the whole verse into ridiculous proportions by saying Character A is Speed X because this character blitzed this character blitzed this character who is as fast as this character who has the actual feat, with literally 0 feats in-between this chain or even quantifiable speed differences. its calc stacking and ends up creating a ton of contradictions. That's the state the verse is currently in which i was attempting to fix with the OP.

no, the OP is trying to get rid of a calc that the top tiers scale to, the wiki simply adds a "likely higher" or "likely far higher" when a characters blitzes another

the concept of scaling chains exist for this reason

t. my first paragraph in this reply.

false equivalence fallacy again i guess

Not sure why we are discussing Kyogai here but it has 0 relevance to the OP, so i'll leave myself out of that part of the discussion.

sure

 

[YeahhBoyee]

and again, a false equivalence fallacy, you even used tengen who also has a different build different fighting style and a different weapon that has chains and thus better range, wonderful

"False equivalence fallacy"? Obviously they have different builds and styles but in overall capabilities as swordsmen they are extremely comparable.

i adressed it all again here

You didn't link anything, mistake i guess?

we still see the lightning hitting the ground first before the sound does, that is not an interpretation that is a fact

Not disagreeing with this, but the lightning debate is where i provided the most points as well as (imo) the least refutable, including the anime just straight up showing the (fake) lightning moving at the speed of the (fake) sound. So unless you somehow dispute all of them i'd consider that part of the debate to be over.

point still stands you're completely wrong and that sonic attack only "threatened" her due to the circumstances

How does the point still stand? Mitsuri had to literally get a Mark mid-fight in order to keep up with the attacks... but i can tell you will not budge on this so let's move on.

that metal changes colors gains different properties depending on the breathing style used turns red due the demon hunter gripping the wooden handle of the blade and not even the metal itself burns people on the cellular level, etc

unless you provide evidence that the gun made with a supernatural metal's bullets are the same as any gun despite it's bullers hitting characters who scale far above people who demonstrated speed that's more than fast enough to dodge mach 1 attacks even when they have a way better range is on you

Illogical outliers exist. I'll name the extreme example of Goku in Super Saiyan form getting wounded and screaming in pain after Krillin threw a rock at him. Or Goku failing to lift 40 tons in base, or Goku getting hit by guns. The next scene he's fighting a Galaxy-buster in base. When this happens you can just discard the outlier because its too extreme, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it doesn't have any weight in determining Gokus speed. I wouldn't argue that the bullets fired at Goku must have been made of superpowered material just because it doesn't line up with the series' own powerscaling.

"that metal changes colors gains different properties depending on the breathing style used"

That's a power which has nothing to do with Nichirin. You said it yourself, the power originates from the Breathing Style, and requires a Demon Slayer Mark which is a physical power-up that transcends the user's abilities into the supernatural. Breathing Styles have nothing to do with Nichirin blades. Sanemi and Giyuu had a sparring match where they used their respective Styles with Wooden swords, and Yoriichi used it with a Training sword (although Yoriichi is just built different so you can discard the latter if you want). No Nichirin blade grants the user a Red blade or even brings them 1% closer. All the super-power comes from within. Tanjiros flashbacks gave him more superpowers than he ever got from his sword.

You also insist the gun itself is made out of Nichirin. The only evidence i could find for this is that Tanjiro said it smelled like a Nichirin sword, but it doesnt change anything either way, just wanted to note it could just as well be made of other metals with Nichirin gunpowder and cartridges.

they're both guns made with supernatural materials, that was my point

Comparing a gun before and after it's been upgraded by a Blood Demon Art is not even remotely valid. How can you say this and then contest me scaling Pillars to each other? Isn't this a False Equivalence Fallacy?

i am not denying reality, i am basing this on the fact that the gun itself is supernatural in nature and managed to land a hit on characters who have more than enough speed to dodge sonic attacks and thus it's bullet speed is unknown, you said it's not and that's it

the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for the fact that those bullets move at the same speed as a regular gun

My point was that you should argue in favor of discarding the event it as an outlier instead of denying the event, since we have no reason (outside of powerscaling) to believe that the gun has super-powers. It could be true in theory, so i won't say you're necessarily wrong, but as there's no rock-solid proof either way, and it appears to be a regular gun, i would disagree and place the burden of proof on you.

My interpretation is that Genya used a gun to blow a demon's head off with. Your interpretation is that the Nichirin has been upgraded using a completely unknown, never mentioned quality of Nichirin resulting in an apparatus that can fire bullets wayyyy faster than any other gun, but still looks exactly like a regular gun and is operated exactly like a regular gun.

basically the difference may be unquantifiable for now as there is a preception blitzing thread that got accepted so they most likey won't unquantifiable for long, but he is leagues above season 1 tanjiro in speed so much so 10 times woudn't cut it because you can still see a car moving at 200 km/h which is more than 10 times faster the average human running speed

Yeah sure, i am not saying that UM4 isn't super fast, the difference is surely far higher than 10 (that was just an arbitrary lowball, no meaning behind it). And it will probably end up still being an outlier when the new speed is calculated (i can only assume based on your SoS Tanjiro feats that seem pretty solid). All i am pointing out is we don't have an exact number, and we don't have any specific (non-debunked) feats even near Massively Hypersonic except one Muzan calc.

no, the OP is trying to get rid of a calc that the top tiers scale to, the wiki simply adds a "likely higher" or "likely far higher" when a characters blitzes another

the concept of scaling chains exist for this reason

The OP has multiple parts to it. I didn't just debunk the calc the top tiers scale to, i also went into how the calc-stacking on the wiki went out-of-control.

The wiki does not just add "Likely higher", at least not for Demon Slayer. It's really apparent when you read the OP. Again, Zenitsu is at Higher than Massively Hypersonic for no reason. Kaigaku is Massively Hypersonic for no reason. UM6 and Tengen are Massively Hypersonic for no reason. ******* Genya is at Massively Hypersonic. None of these are top tiers, to say the least. Even if the calcs were right this still doesn't even remotely make sense.

false equivalence fallacy again i guess

I already wrote a paper on why the Muichiro calc is wrong for way more than 1 reason. But that aside, addressing on the AoE argument;

Showing two of the weaker Pillars pulling a Building-sized AoE attack, and then saying a different Pillar can hit more than two fish at the same time is basic scaling. You can scale characters' swordsman feats to each other if they are shown to be equally good, if not better swordsmen and we know Muichiro >> Uzui. Same way you scale character's base traits like speed like you just did with Giyuu and Rengoku. Applying your argument to practice, you would have to say Yoriichi also doesn't have AoE of that scale since he never showed it and "different builds, different fighting style, different weapon". It's unreasonable to believe an superior swordsman is massively outmatched by an inferior swordsman in any one area of swordsmanship, and Muichiro is very much superior to Tengen.

 

[Passersby]

as stated below, let's drop the gun argument since we won't reach a consesus and i don't want to waste your time

you can read or ignore the points i made about that part of the argument

sincerely

me

"False equivalence fallacy"? Obviously they have different builds and styles but in overall capabilities as swordsmen they are extremely comparable.

i mean, that is still a false equivalence fallacy no matter how you word it

Not disagreeing with this, but the lightning debate is where i provided the most points as well as (imo) the least refutable, including the anime just straight up showing the (fake) lightning moving at the speed of the (fake) sound. So unless you somehow dispute all of them i'd consider that part of the debate to be over.

the lightning was accepted to be real and lightning speed in another thread, so this point is kinda moot and i'm pretty sure i addressed all the points in the OP

How does the point still stand? Mitsuri had to literally get a Mark mid-fight in order to keep up with the attacks... but i can tell you will not budge on this so let's move on.

i will not budge because she still was only hit by that attack due to the circumstances i provided
oh well, let's keep going

Illogical outliers exist. I'll name the extreme example of Goku in Super Saiyan form getting wounded and screaming in pain after Krillin threw a rock at him. Or Goku failing to lift 40 tons in base, or Goku getting hit by guns. The next scene he's fighting a Galaxy-buster in base. When this happens you can just discard the outlier because its too extreme, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it doesn't have any weight in determining Gokus speed. I wouldn't argue that the bullets fired at Goku must have been made of superpowered material just because it doesn't line up with the series' own powerscaling.

i agree with that, illogical outliers exist, this is not one of them

"that metal changes colors gains different properties depending on the breathing style used"

That's a power which has nothing to do with Nichirin. You said it yourself, the power originates from the Breathing Style, and requires a Demon Slayer Mark which is a physical power-up that transcends the user's abilities into the supernatural. Breathing Styles have nothing to do with Nichirin blades. Sanemi and Giyuu had a sparring match where they used their respective Styles with Wooden swords, and Yoriichi used it with a Training sword (although Yoriichi is just built different so you can discard the latter if you want). No Nichirin blade grants the user a Red blade or even brings them 1% closer. All the super-power comes from within. Tanjiros flashbacks gave him more superpowers than he ever got from his sword.

...uhh

where do i start with this


first of all, the blade changing color depending on the breath technique used is a property of the nichirin metal, it does not require the slayer mark and even season 1 tanjiro's blade turned balck when he touched it's wooden handle, that's simply a property of the metal

the blades turns red when someone with enough grip strenght uses it, that is again a property of the nichirin metal

tanjiro's flashbacks were memories from his ancestors when he got to see the sun breath in it's real form and enhance his swordmanship style/hinokami kargura as well as this fact
these are all properties of the nichirin metal, it's a fictional metal, plain and simple

You also insist the gun itself is made out of Nichirin. The only evidence i could find for this is that Tanjiro said it smelled like a Nichirin sword, but it doesnt change anything either way, just wanted to note it could just as well be made of other metals with Nichirin gunpowder and cartridges.

i sent you the guidbook stating that it was made out of nichirin metal prior to this, and it does changes things as that simply implies that's a supernatural gun

anyhting about it's abilities and performance is mere specualtion

Comparing a gun before and after it's been upgraded by a Blood Demon Art is not even remotely valid. How can you say this and then contest me scaling Pillars to each other? Isn't this a False Equivalence Fallacy?

...i don't think you understand what false equivalence fallacy is

false equivalence is a cognitive bias by which events, ideas or situations are compared as if they are the same when the differences are substantial

i am not implying the guns have the same properties performance and speed because they're guns, i am implying that both guns are supernatural in nature and thus their performance is unknown, unless of course there is a showing where this is clearly contradicted or the difference between them is substantial

My point was that you should argue in favor of discarding the event it as an outlier instead of denying the event, since we have no reason (outside of powerscaling) to believe that the gun has super-powers. It could be true in theory, so i won't say you're necessarily wrong, but as there's no rock-solid proof either way, and it appears to be a regular gun, i would disagree and place the burden of proof on you.

powerscaling where a character who scales far below the character who got hit by bullets managed to dodge a barrage of comfirmed to be sound speed attacks even when heavily injured, i am referencing the kyogai feat here, and this
it is also comfirmed that gun is made with supernatural metal, so i see my point being more likely

the burden of proof is on the one making the claim btw, you claimed the gun is as fast as a regular gun, the burden of proof is on you to prove it

just as much as it's on me to prove the gun is special, which i did provide multiple points to prove

My interpretation is that Genya used a gun to blow a demon's head off with. Your interpretation is that the Nichirin has been upgraded using a completely unknown, never mentioned quality of Nichirin resulting in an apparatus that can fire bullets wayyyy faster than any other gun, but still looks exactly like a regular gun and is operated exactly like a regular gun.

my interpretation is the gun made of supernatural metal fire bullets at a rate faster than a regular gun, yes

Yeah sure, i am not saying that UM4 isn't super fast, the difference is surely far higher than 10 (that was just an arbitrary lowball, no meaning behind it). And it will probably end up still being an outlier when the new speed is calculated (i can only assume based on your SoS Tanjiro feats that seem pretty solid). All i am pointing out is we don't have an exact number, and we don't have any specific (non-debunked) feats even near Massively Hypersonic except one Muzan calc.

i mean,my friend, the calc you currently oppose in the OP is still valid

i kind of made a counterpoint to all your points

let's just drop the gun argument since it's getting nowhere

i will write it above in the begining of the post so you don't have to waste your time

The OP has multiple parts to it. I didn't just debunk the calc the top tiers scale to, i also went into how the calc-stacking on the wiki went out-of-control.

it wasn't really calc stacking as low level fodder demons were consistently shown to be subsonic in the anime and manga, but i digress

The wiki does not just add "Likely higher", at least not for Demon Slayer. It's really apparent when you read the OP. Again, Zenitsu is at Higher than Massively Hypersonic for no reason. Kaigaku is Massively Hypersonic for no reason. UM6 and Tengen are Massively Hypersonic for no reason. ******* Genya is at Massively Hypersonic. None of these are top tiers, to say the least. Even if the calcs were right this still doesn't even remotely make sense.

oh, that's just scaling based on "this guy is somewhat equal to this guy who is massively hypersonic so he must be somehwat on the same level"

granted, i don't agree with a lot of it either, but it is what it is

I already wrote a paper on why the Muichiro calc is wrong for way more than 1 reason. But that aside, addressing on the AoE argument;

Showing two of the weaker Pillars pulling a Building-sized AoE attack, and then saying a different Pillar can hit more than two fish at the same time is basic scaling. You can scale characters' swordsman feats to each other if they are shown to be equally good, if not better swordsmen and we know Muichiro >> Uzui. Same way you scale character's base traits like speed like you just did with Giyuu and Rengoku. Applying your argument to practice, you would have to say Yoriichi also doesn't have AoE of that scale since he never showed it and "different builds, different fighting style, different weapon". It's unreasonable to believe an superior swordsman is massively outmatched by an inferior swordsman in any one area of swordsmanship, and Muichiro is very much superior to Tengen.

i completely understand your point, trust me,

however, i disagreed because of multiple points

1 both tengen and mitsuri has far better range than muichiro with their weapons

2 their breathing styles and techniques are wholly different

3 their fighting styles is also completely different because they all have different weapons, mitsuri has a whip sword, tengen has weapons like young kratos's and muichiro only has a regular katana


that's why i said it's a flase equivalence fallacy, it's like saying both apples and oranges are the same because they're fruits

false equivalence is a cognitive bias by which events, ideas or situations are compared as if they are the same when the differences are substantial

the analogy itself is flawed, this isn't about skills, it's about different weapons different fighting techniques and different constitutions,


even yoriichi doesn't have as much range as mitsuri due to her weapon being completely different than his and being way longer, for example even if yoriichi is way more skilled than kokushibo, he still won't have as much range as him due to his weapon being longer, i hope you understand


you're quite chill, welcome to site my friend

 

[Armorchompy]

"visibly move at the same speed", this is a manga, you literally can't see them move and you ignored a huge portion of my argument since, again, the lightning hits the ground before the sonic scream blood demon art does even when it's further away from it, and there multiple interpretations of this manga panel, such as the lightning hitting the ground first (as shown in the panel) then the sonic scream reaches the ground or the sonic scream reaching the ground then zohakutten unleashing the lightning attack etc

They're part of the same, ongoing attack aimed at the same person, and she needs to counter both at the same time, they have to be comparable.

she can sense invisible attacks, doesn't really change much of my point tho

Your point is that she couldn't react to it because it was invisible. Generally I would agree that she was taken off-guard but that doesn't make sense if she's thousands of times faster than it is, it was in front of them, she can see them, she definitely would be able to get out of the way.

point still stands, nichirin metal is a supernatural metal and thus it's bullet speed is unknown

No it doesn't, I literally explained why that isn't relevant in detail.

unless there is evidence to the gun shooting bullets at normal speed despite hitting characters that massively upscale from season 1 tanjiro who can dodge sound speed attacks even while injured and can even do this, it simply doesn't

The evidence that it's shooting bullets at normal speed is that it's a gun that is not proven to shoot at unusual speeds, you can't just point out inconsistencies and say "this means assume it's arbitrarily faster", it just means they're an inconsistency. It's like arguing that every single piercing weapon in the series is 8-C because that one girl on mugen train that stabbed Tanjiro

muichiro doesn't, he never demonstrated any AOE technique and so far the argument is "he may have one because mitsuri also has one", which is a completely flawed analogy as their fightning styles sword styles and even their swords aren't the same, mitsuri's sword is in the form of a whip if anything

We literally know all of them have AOE stuff to a degree because that's just a basic aspect of breathing techniques, they all have shockwaves surrounding the blades when they swing them

this is basically a false equivalence fallacy

You can't just say "[thing] fallacy" you know.

as i said and as your panel proves, he was having no trouble with the speed of sound attacks alone, he only started having trouble when kyogai started spinning the room with his BDA and attack him with the mach 1 attacks at the same time which demonstrates that mach 1 attacks are nothing to even an extremely injured season 1 tanjrio

i would like you to use the full panel next time not crop it btw

You literally posted cropped panels yourself, anyways here you go, he's dodging from a distance and moving much less than the sound wave does, can anticipate the attacks since he's figured out their predictable pattern, and he's still struggling. I don't see how any of this "proves" he's "having no trouble".

 

[Passersby]

They're part of the same, ongoing attack aimed at the same person, and she needs to counter both at the same time, they have to be comparable.

they are completely different attacks made with two completely different blood demon arts and nobody said she has to counter them both as the same time and nothing indicates they have to be comparable

Your point is that she couldn't react to it because it was invisible. Generally I would agree that she was taken off-guard but that doesn't make sense if she's thousands of times faster than it is, it was in front of them, she can see them, she definitely would be able to get out of the way.

she dashed full speed at the guy trying to decapitate him and thinking that's all she needs to do when she got hit by that attack mid air while distracted by tanjiro's remark,either way, there are way too many circumstances and explanations here for this to qualify as an anti feat

No it doesn't, I literally explained why that isn't relevant in detail.

you said to address my points, in fact a blade made of nichirin metal changes colors by touching the none nichirin wooden handle of the blade and becomes red when you grip the wooden/non nichirin handle of the blade even when in both of these instances have nothing to do with the nichirin metal, it's simply supernatural in nature, that's it


so my point still stands that the gun is supernatural in nature due to the materials used and thus it's speed is unquantifiable, unless of course you also bring that point to the flesh coated gun genya used against kokushibo, does that one also shoot bullets at the same speed as regular gun?

The evidence that it's shooting bullets at normal speed is that it's a gun that is not proven to shoot at unusual speeds

famous old quote absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when i made it clear why that gun is supernatural in nature and thus shoots bullets at unknown speed

you can't just point out inconsistencies and say "this means assume it's arbitrarily faster", it just means they're an inconsistency. It's like arguing that every single piercing weapon in the series is 8-C because that one girl on mugen train that stabbed Tanjiro

that is true, but that's not what i'm doing here, i am giving a proper explanation as to why that gun's speed is unquantifiable

nothing more, nothing less

We literally know all of them have AOE stuff to a degree because that's just a basic aspect of breathing techniques, they all have shockwaves surrounding the blades when they swing them

the range is still different and that's still a false equivalence fallacy, literally everything about them is different, the height the weapons the physique the fighting style everything

that's like arguing yoriichi has the same range as kokushibo because they both use breathing techniques, do you see how flawed this is?

You can't just say "[thing] fallacy" you know.

i can still show you the definition,

false equivalence is a cognitive bias by which events, ideas or situations are compared as if they are the same when the differences are substantial

which is what you're commiting here

You literally posted cropped panels yourself,

those were statements to prove thet transonic attack speed

anyways here you go, he's dodging from a distance and moving much less than the sound wave does,

...and where is the part where he is struggling with the sound speed attacks without having the room constantly spinning?

can anticipate the attacks since he's figured out their predictable pattern, and he's still struggling. I don't see how any of this "proves" he's "having no trouble".

he did not figure out any pattern to the attacks until nor a way to even fight properly until chap 25, nothing in that panel even shows what you're stating, it just shows him casually dodging the attack with a girl on his arms, what are you even talking about?

 

[Armorchompy]

they are completely different attacks made with two completely different blood demon arts and nobody said she has to counter them both as the same time and nothing indicates they have to be comparable

She visibly cuts through them both in the same sequence

she dashed full speed at the guy trying to decapitate him and thinking that's all she needs to do when she got hit by that attack mid air while distracted by tanjiro's remark,either way, there are way too many circumstances and explanations here for this to qualify as an anti feat

She was looking directly at him, if the attack moved at literal snail speed to her she'd be able to react to it no matter what.

you said to address my points, in fact a blade made of nichirin metal changes colors by touching the none nichirin wooden handle of the blade and becomes red when you grip the wooden/non nichirin handle of the blade even when in both of these instances have nothing to do with the nichirin metal, it's simply supernatural in nature, that's it

so my point still stands that the gun is supernatural in nature due to the materials used and thus it's speed is unquantifiable

No it doesn't stand. You have failed in any way to explain how just being made out of a magic metal would make the bullets faster. It wouldn't, by default.

the range is still different and that's still a false equivalence fallacy, literally everything about them is different, the height the weapons the physique the fighting style everything

Ok, bringing her up may not have been viable but the characters still have shockwaves around their attack which would allow the guy to potentially hit dozens of fish per attack.

...and where is the part where he is struggling with the sound speed attacks without having the room constantly spinning?

He's visibly sweating and plainly states they're extremely fast

he did not figure out any pattern to the attacks until nor a way to even fight properly until chap 25, nothing in that panel even shows what you're stating, it just shows him casually dodging the attack with a girl on his arms, what are you even talking about?

He literally says how they work. Chapter 25 is when he figures out the room shifting pattern, but it takes him nothing to realize "oh the attacks come out when he bangs the drum", which would be a huge help in dodging them.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Working on revising the speed of the verse and getting a new set of calculations evaluated.

Though briefly addressing some points here.

---

Since lightning from Zohauken was accepted as real.
We can use the lightning end of this calc as a replacement for Muichiro's calc:

Kimetsu no Yaiba:Mitsuri dodges "Lighting" from Hantegu

vsbattles.fandom.com

Which works out better for scaling since this is from Unmarked Mitsuri.

Have replacement calc for the Zenitsu spider calc:

Demon Slayer: Zenitsu Decides He Loves to Jump

vsbattles.fandom.com

---

The only time Hantengu sound attacks landed is when the intended target is being held, or is caught off-guard while mid-air. Sound attacks can have utility by being invisible and having a large AoE, but Hantengu's lightning attacks has been stated several times to be incredibly fast (compared to any other attacks experienced) by Tanjiro and Genya.


The antifeats provided are weak.
MHS+ kunai and arrows are not uncommon in power scaling; don't see the issue.
Muzan was shocked Kagaya was willing to sacrifice his wife and children, when Muzan thought of them as hostages. So the explosion is portrayed as a surprise attack.
Why are magic material gun and magic material bullets a problem again? It shouldn't be controversial that they possess more power and damage than what regular guns are capable of, considering that they can destroy the neck of powerful demons.

 

[Passersby]

She visibly cuts through them both in the same sequence

and that implies they have the same speed how?

She was looking directly at him, if the attack moved at literal snail speed to her she'd be able to react to it no matter what.

that still does not address the fact that she was dashing towards at full speed while in mid air and being distarcted by tanjiro's comment, that's still does not qualify as anti feat

No it doesn't stand. You have failed in any way to explain how just being made out of a magic metal would make the bullets faster. It wouldn't, by default.

because it hits characters who scale far above season 1 tanjro who can easily dodge comfirmed to be transonic attacks even when extremely injured and can destroy something as durable as an uppermoon's neck

last time i checked, bullets weren't 8C and 8B in energy output

and you have also failed in any way shape or form to even remotely prove the magical gun made with magical metal is somehow the same as a regular gun, there is zero evidence suggesting that and multiple ones suggesting the opposite

Ok, bringing her up may not have been viable but the characters still have shockwaves around their attack which would allow the guy to potentially hit dozens of fish per attack.

which was taken into consideration as it was assumed he was slashing 10 fish per swing on average, not 1 or 2

He's visibly sweating and plainly states they're extremely fast

again, what's extremely fast is the speed of rotation and attacks, he was never shown to even struggle with to nly the sound speed attacks before hand

He literally says how they work. Chapter 25 is when he figures out the room shifting pattern, but it takes him nothing to realize "oh the attacks come out when he bangs the drum", which would be a huge help in dodging them.

...okay, knowing an attack will come from a random direction after the demon hits the drum is definitely a bonus no matter how little it may be i guess

 

[YeahhBoyee]

as stated below, let's drop the gun argument since we won't reach a consesus and i don't want to waste your time

you can read or ignore the points i made about that part of the argument

sincerely

me

Ok it seems you're in the middle of a different debate, so im not gonna argue much. Just address some of your points real quick so we can wrap this up.

the lightning was accepted to be real and lightning speed in another thread, so this point is kinda moot and i'm pretty sure i addressed all the points in the OP

I don't know which thread you mean, but i think this scene by itself disproves that whole idea. Not to mention the Mach 1 outliers. But hey i said all this already so lets move on.

my interpretation is the gun made of supernatural metal fire bullets at a rate faster than a regular gun, yes

I'll let the gun issue rest, my parting statement is that Demon slayers and Swordsmiths aren't sorcerers they'd have to find some way to magically make that work. But we both agree the outlier doesn't mean much anyway.

i mean,my friend, the calc you currently oppose in the OP is still valid

i kind of made a counterpoint to all your points

I don't recall that. Some you addressed, but when did you disprove the fact the calc's rationalization for the fish being sonic speed had logic errors, for example.

oh, that's just scaling based on "this guy is somewhat equal to this guy who is massively hypersonic so he must be somehwat on the same level"

granted, i don't agree with a lot of it either, but it is what it is

Glad we agree on that. Some things are arguable, the whole gun thing is one of them where i could easily be wrong but the amount of times i had to read Massively Hypersonic on a Demon slayer profile of a character that had 0 feats even close to that was insane. Massively Hypersonic Genya lmao

even yoriichi doesn't have as much range as mitsuri due to her weapon being completely different than his and being way longer, for example even if yoriichi is way more skilled than kokushibo, he still won't have as much range as him due to his weapon being longer, i hope you understand

I was unsure where the "false equivalence" paragraph was going until i read this. So now i kind of understand your point of view, you believe range is completely disconnected from the Swordsman's skill and overall ability. I found it odd that you had no issue scaling the speed of pillars and many other things but then said you can't compare AoE.

So here is my counter-argument, Build/range/weapon of choice, all of that matters, we are agreed on that, but the ultimate driving factor is the Breathing Style which gives Mitsuri a supernatural ability to cut objects that are a good 200 meters further away than her sword's max length. Or just take Kokushiba's Moon Breathing being able to spawn shockwaves that travel way beyond his reach. There's no way Yoriichi's Sun Breathing, of which Moon Breathing is a stunted derivative is inferior to it in that aspect.

And Yoriichis mastery is a bit better than Mitsuri's to say the least. Enough to make up for his sword being a few centimeters shorter.

you're quite chill, welcome to site my friend

Thanks!

 

[Armorchompy]

that still does not address the fact that she was dashing towards at full speed while in mid air and being distarcted by tanjiro's comment, that's still does not qualify as anti feat

It does, I've explained why already.

because it hits characters who scale far above season 1 tanjro who can easily dodge comfirmed to be transonic attacks even when extremely injured and can destroy something as durable as an uppermoon's neck

We've been over this already.

and you have also failed in any way shape or form to even remotely prove the magical gun made with magical metal is somehow the same as a regular gun, there is zero evidence suggesting that and multiple ones suggesting the opposite

Good thing I don't need to, that's on you to prove it does, and none of the evidence you've brought up makes a lick of sense.

which was taken into consideration as it was assumed he was slashing 10 fish per swing on average, not 1 or 2

And OP disagrees with that assumption, as do I.

again, what's extremely fast is the speed of rotation and attacks, he was never shown to even struggle with to nly the sound speed attacks before hand

He's sweating bullets, extremely worried, and again he does say the attacks are fast, that is struggling my guy.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Since lightning from Zohauken was accepted as real.
We can use the lightning end of this calc as a replacement for Muichiro's calc:

Kimetsu no Yaiba:Mitsuri dodges "Lighting" from Hantegu

vsbattles.fandom.com

Which works out better for scaling since this is from Unmarked Mitsuri.

Have replacement calc for the Zenitsu spider calc:

Demon Slayer: Zenitsu Decides He Loves to Jump

vsbattles.fandom.com

---

Nice!

Both calcs are great.

I'm clueless how Mitsuri is physically managing to cut through lightning, since we are saying its real now. In that case imo she should get something like being able to hit intangible things like lightning and sound? Unless we say its real in every sense except being weak to Nichirin since its still a Blood Demon Art?

The only time Hantengu sound attacks landed is when the intended target is being held, or is caught off-guard while mid-air. Sound attacks can have utility by being invisible and having a large AoE, but Hantengu's lightning attacks has been stated several times to be incredibly fast (compared to any other attacks experienced) by Tanjiro and Genya.

Tanjiro got hit repeatedly it but i guess he was on the ground, is this also an off-guard thing? He's also dodged one of the attacks so that definitely helps.

The antifeats provided are weak.
MHS+ kunai and arrows are not uncommon in power scaling; don't see the issue.
Muzan was shocked Kagaya was willing to sacrifice his wife and children, when Muzan thought of them as hostages. So the explosion is portrayed as a surprise attack.
Why are magic material gun and magic material bullets a problem again? It shouldn't be controversial that they possess more power and damage than what regular guns are capable of, considering that they can destroy the neck of powerful demons.

The Kunai was launched by one of Tengen's wives who are really weak but im not 100% sure Gyutaro tried to dodge it

Agree with Muzan reasoning.

The reasoning was that Nichirin blades aren't portrayed as more powerful, just very effective against demons because they absorbed a lot of sunlight. Tanjiro breaks his sword every arc, the fodder slayers wielding them are still fodder, it seems to be extremely similar if not identical to metal in all other ways so i found it hard to believe it could upgrade a gun to fire at MH+ levels.

But i had a discussion with someone else here who also believes the gun to be superpowered, so if that's the prevailing opinion then so be it.

Nice revision

 

[Passersby]

I don't know which thread you mean, but i think this scene by itself disproves that whole idea. Not to mention the Mach 1 outliers. But hey i said all this already so lets move on.

it really doesn't, but let's move on

I'll let the gun issue rest, my parting statement is that Demon slayers and Swordsmiths aren't sorcerers they'd have to find some way to magically make that work. But we both agree the outlier doesn't mean much anyway.

alright,

I don't recall that. Some you addressed, but when did you disprove the fact the calc's rationalization for the fish being sonic speed had logic errors, for example.

the fish summons are not, the fish he attacks muichiro with are considering he absolutely had the intent to overwhelm muichiro with them

Glad we agree on that. Some things are arguable, the whole gun thing is one of them where i could easily be wrong but the amount of times i had to read Massively Hypersonic on a Demon slayer profile of a character that had 0 feats even close to that was insane. Massively Hypersonic Genya lmao

genya had it because he ate kokushibo's hair and gained a slayer mark, but yeah, that's just questionable as ****

I was unsure where the "false equivalence" paragraph was going until i read this. So now i kind of understand your point of view, you believe range is completely disconnected from the Swordsman's skill and overall ability. I found it odd that you had no issue scaling the speed of pillars and many other things but then said you can't compare AoE.

i kinda said the speed is different for each pillar considering an unmarked sanemi is way faster than a marked muichiro and we already have databook information about who the fastest pillars are, so i do bleive we can scale them to each other in stats, since there is no fallacy in doinf so

So here is my counter-argument, Build/range/weapon of choice, all of that matters, we are agreed on that, but the ultimate driving factor is the Breathing Style which gives Mitsuri a supernatural ability to cut objects that are a good 200 meters further away than her sword's max length. Or just take Kokushiba's Moon Breathing being able to spawn shockwaves that travel way beyond his reach. There's no way Yoriichi's Sun Breathing, of which Moon Breathing is a stunted derivative is inferior to it in that aspect.

yoriichi is absolutely inferior in terms of range, have you seen how big kokushibo's sword is?
it can also extend and and retract itself

and again, really that's still a false equivalence fallacy

just because they all use breathng styles, doesn't mean all the pillars can do this

this is the difference in breathing styles, they all have different techniques and different forms, as well as fit different people, just because abreathing style has a technique that can do something doesn't mean all of them can do the same thing

And Yoriichis mastery is a bit better than Mitsuri's to say the least. Enough to make up for his sword being a few centimeters shorter.

..a bit better is a huge understatement lmao, altought i realy don't know

Thanks!

you're welcome!

It does, I've explained why already.

you have not?

We've been over this already.

if you're conceding the argument then sure

Good thing I don't need to, that's on you to prove it does, and none of the evidence you've brought up makes a lick of sense.

you claim the gun is the same as a normal gun, it's absolutely on you to prove that claim, and just stating that i don't make any sens without elaborating why really isn't going to do much

And OP disagrees with that assumption, as do I.

i can tell, and?

do you not have any more points to argue in favor of your point?

He's sweating bullets, extremely worried, and again he does say the attacks are fast, that is struggling my guy.

...i never denied he was struggling, i denied the fact that he would struggle with only the sound speed attacks

what i don't deny is he is struggling with the combined effect of having to dodge sound speed attacks with the room constantly spinning around him

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Alright looks like we can wrap this up very soon. This is pretty much the final point.

yoriichi is absolutely inferior in terms of range, have you seen how big kokushibo's sword is?
it can also extend and and retract itself

and again, really that's still a false equivalence fallacy

just because they all use breathng styles, doesn't mean all the pillars can do this

this is the difference in breathing styles, they all have different techniques and different forms, as well as fit different people, just because abreathing style has a technique that can do something doesn't mean all of them can do the same thing

Let me deep-dive into why what you said about Sanemi doesn't apply to Yoriichi.

Kokushibo's entire sword style is a inferior derivative of the original Sun breathing style. Yoriichi taught everyone and not one person could use it, the only reason Wind Breathing exists is because someone in the past failed to use the Sun breathing techniques and Yoriichi created yet another derivative to teach instead.

Even Upper Moon 1, who had hundreds of years to master the sword, who was taught directly by Yoriichi, who is a extremely powerful demon, still didn't have enough skill to use Sun breathing. UM1 literally wanted to be Yoriichi, that was his life's motivation, and he couldn't use it. Tanjiro managed it for like five seconds to create a faint parody that Muzan immediately discredited compared to Yoriichi. The original Sun Breathing is so powerful, the mere memories of seeing it once scared Muzan for his fear to be genetically inherited by all demons.

So anything that any technique can do is not only doable, but can be done better, by Sun breathing, it's not that Sun Breathing is invincible, but it's the most optimal Breathing Style.

To put into perspective even further how much above Kokushibo Yoriichi is, he faced his brother at 80 years old with a Mark that would have killed anyone else 55 years ago and he perception blitzed Kokushibo and could have killed him in 2 seconds. It's impossible to overstate how far above the verse Yoriichi was.

So with all that in mind, if Yoriichi wanted to hit a large area with his sword, using his original Sun Breathing (and keep in mind he also knows all of the inferior derivatives like Wind breathing because he f*cking invented them ) i will ask you again, do you really believe that he wouldn't be able to match his brother? Because Kokushibo's sword is longer? My brother in christ, Upper Moon 1 saw his existence as so overpowered that he never got over it, even after hundreds of years.

So i guess you can believe that Tengen has more range than Muichiro. That take now seems downright reasonable in comparison but never doubt the God-King of this verse. He can do anything you've seen anyone do with a sword better, faster, more effortlessly.

 

[Passersby]

Alright looks like we can wrap this up very soon. This is pretty much the final point.



Let me deep-dive into why what you said about Sanemi doesn't apply to Yoriichi.

Kokushibo's entire sword style is a inferior derivative of the original Sun breathing style. Yoriichi taught everyone and not one person could use it, the only reason Wind Breathing exists is because someone in the past failed to use the Sun breathing techniques and Yoriichi created yet another derivative to teach instead.

Even Upper Moon 1, who had hundreds of years to master the sword, who was taught directly by Yoriichi, who is a extremely powerful demon, still didn't have enough skill to use Sun breathing. UM1 literally wanted to be Yoriichi, that was his life's motivation, and he couldn't use it. Tanjiro managed it for like five seconds to create a faint parody that Muzan immediately discredited compared to Yoriichi. The original Sun Breathing is so powerful, the mere memories of seeing it once scared Muzan for his fear to be genetically inherited by all demons.

So anything that any technique can do is not only doable, but can be done better, by Sun breathing, it's not that Sun Breathing is invincible, but it's the most optimal Breathing Style.

To put into perspective even further how much above Kokushibo Yoriichi is, he faced his brother at 80 years old with a Mark that would have killed anyone else 55 years ago and he perception blitzed Kokushibo and could have killed him in 2 seconds. It's impossible to overstate how far above the verse Yoriichi was.

So with all that in mind, if Yoriichi wanted to hit a large area with his sword, using his original Sun Breathing (and keep in mind he also knows all of the inferior derivatives like Wind breathing because he f*cking invented them ) i will ask you again, do you really believe that he wouldn't be able to match his brother? Because Kokushibo's sword is longer? My brother in christ, Upper Moon 1 saw his existence as so overpowered that he never got over it, even after hundreds of years.

So i guess you can believe that Tengen has more range than Muichiro. That take now seems downright reasonable in comparison but never doubt the God-King of this verse. He can do anything you've seen anyone do with a sword better, faster, more effortlessly.

holy hell, you're more of a yoriichi fanboy than even i am, i do agree that yoriichi do whatever characters in the entire DS verse at leasr 1M times better (low ball) but muichiro kinda can't, skill issue really

 

[Armorchompy]

if you're conceding the argument then sure

No, I'm saying I've countered your arguments already and I don't need to do so again, don't get witty.

you claim the gun is the same as a normal gun, it's absolutely on you to prove that claim, and just stating that i don't make any sens without elaborating why really isn't going to do much

I have explained why being made out of a metal with special properties doesn't by default mean the bullets go faster, on you to prove that it does.

i can tell, and?

do you not have any more points to argue in favor of your point?

It's a calculation, ultimately it's going to be based on assumptions no matter what but if it's gonna be the leading feat then caution seems like the best route.

...i never denied he was struggling, i denied the fact that he would struggle with only the sound speed attacks

what i don't deny is he is struggling with the combined effect of having to dodge sound speed attacks with the room constantly spinning around him

Why are we even talking about this? He's clearly relative to sound or slower, this doesn't matter.

 

[Passersby]

No, I'm saying I've countered your arguments already and I don't need to do so again, don't get witty.

and i'm saying you have not, you just said "the atack should move at snail speed" while not addressing the fact that she dashing towards him at full speed in mid air and had her sword around his neck thinking that's all she needed to do and was distracted by tanjiro's shout

no matter how you look at it, these are cicumstances where she unable to dodge, she did react to the attack by tensing her muscles to not die, but she did not dodge it because she couldn't

i am not getting witty, you simply didn't address anything

I have explained why being made out of a metal with special properties doesn't by default mean the bullets go faster, on you to prove that it does.

sure, but guns made out if supernatural metal that manage to hit characters who scale far above others who can easily dodge sonic attacks that have way more range by default implies the bullets go faster


and i provided ample evidence and reasoning that the gun is supernatural in nature and has unquantifiable speed

1 it's made out of supernatural metal
2 it damaged 8C/8B characters
3 it managed to hit characters who scale far above other characters who demonstrated more than enough speed to dodge sonic attacks


now,prove the gun ade out of nichirin metal is a normal one and thus the characters being hit by them is an anti feat

It's a calculation, ultimately it's going to be based on assumptions no matter what but if it's gonna be the leading feat then caution seems like the best route.

the assumption provided is already enough based on the circumstances and context of how the feat happened, and the extended melee range was also taken into consideration when making the calc, thus the 10 fish per slash

i've already explained why above

Why are we even talking about this? He's clearly relative to sound or slower, this doesn't matter.

because we were talking about how "regular guns" are not 8C and 8B and the low level characters showed more than enough speed to dodge regular bullets

let's skip it if you don't want to argue about it, but he is definitely faster than sound when not injured

 

[SunDaGamer]

I calculated Tanjiro dodging Kyogai's attacks

Tanjiro dodges Kyogai's attacks

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Armorchompy]

and i'm saying you have not, you just said "the atack should move at snail speed" while not addressing the fact that she dashing towards him at full speed in mid air and had her sword around his neck thinking that's all she needed to do and was distracted by tanjiro's shout

no matter how you look at it, these are cicumstances where she unable to dodge, she did react to the attack by tensing her muscles to not die, but she did not dodge it because she couldn't

i am not getting witty, you simply didn't address anything


sure, but guns made out if supernatural metal that manage to hit characters who scale far above others who can easily dodge sonic attacks that have way more range by default implies the bullets go faster


and i provided ample evidence and reasoning that the gun is supernatural in nature and has unquantifiable speed

1 it's made out of supernatural metal
2 it damaged 8C/8B characters
3 it managed to hit characters who scale far above other characters who demonstrated more than enough speed to dodge sonic attacks


now,prove the gun ade out of nichirin metal is a normal one and thus the characters being hit by them is an anti feat


the assumption provided is already enough based on the circumstances and context of how the feat happened, and the extended melee range was also taken into consideration when making the calc, thus the 10 fish per slash

i've already explained why above

because we were talking about how "regular guns" are not 8C and 8B and the low level characters showed more than enough speed to dodge regular bullets

let's skip it if you don't want to argue about it, but he is definitely faster than sound when not injured

literally every single thing here i've responded to already man, i dunno what you want me to say, i'm not gonna just keep wasting my time