Black Clover: Immense Speed Downgrade

[CloverDragon03]

I’ve said all I’ve needed to say. This is now at a point where there’s no point trying to convince the people that disagree, and if I continue, I’ll just be going in circles

No one has provided the necessary support for this multiplier stack. No calcs, no statements, no nothing. Once more, I will defer to the staff, though I believe there’s already sufficient input

 

[Joshyyy_64]

I’ve said all I’ve needed to say. This is now at a point where there’s no point trying to convince the people that disagree, and if I continue, I’ll just be going in circles

No one has provided the necessary support for this multiplier stack. No calcs, no statements, no nothing. Once more, I will defer to the staff, though I believe there’s already sufficient input

you can say that but with all due respect, the zora statement which seems to be the main argument point as to whether or not these seem to be a 1:1 is what we are stuck on and which is why I argue that the calc stacking should work here because from what we can see, it proves it very well. Please do try again and answer @Xinsignia1 earlier input on how magic power works in respect to Zora's counter trap magic mechanism because it's an awful argument in and of itself. (with all due respect still)

Mana Skin doesn't amp speed to my knowledge, it's just a defensive move

boosts physical capabilities

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the OP seems reasonable.

Once more, I will defer to the staff, though I believe there’s already sufficient input

This is correct.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Definitely haven’t seen enough justification to say all magic is exactly linear with speed

Like fodder keep up with dudes that have way more magic than them all time. Like obviously boosting magic makes you faster, but I have seen nothing that means it’s directly linear.

This is about as loose as it gets to have Massively FTL+ characters cause magic increase

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

The thread has passed 48 hours and like 6 mods have agreed and 0 disagreed. With almost no arguments against this. How much more will this be kept up for

 

[SunDaGamer]

you can say that but with all due respect, the zora statement which seems to be the main argument point as to whether or not these seem to be a 1:1 is what we are stuck on and which is why I argue that the calc stacking should work here because from what we can see, it proves it very well. Please do try again and answer @Xinsignia1 earlier input on how magic power works in respect to Zora's counter trap magic mechanism because it's an awful argument in and of itself. (with all due respect still)

Even then it doesn't matter because there are no Massively FTL+ feats to justify the insane multiplier stacking Black Clover's speed tiers have rn, the speed stacking with AP isn't even consistent between EOMS and Royal Knights tiers

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Like fodder keep up with dudes that have way more magic than them all time.

Mitch in my very first CRT I made sure that this was not the case.

It only applies to magic amps and magic amps alone, NOT inherent magic power.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The thread has passed 48 hours and like 6 mods have agreed and 0 disagreed. With almost no arguments against this. How much more will this be kept up for

Why are you rushing this? If you have nothing to add to the discussion kindly unfollow the thread.

1. One of the mods haven’t read the arguments,
2. There are more arguments coming when I get more time.
3. The calc we are deffering to is completely wrong and I’m currently recalcing it.

Again if you have nothing to add, leave you can’t rush something as massive as this.

 

[Xinsignia1]

Mitch in my very first CRT I made sure that this was not the case.

It only applies to magic amps and magic amps alone, NOT inherent magic power.

This is 100% true, for example, 50% Vanica is far superior to her 50% dark desciples. They're both receiving magic amps, but their inherent power is clearly different.

It was even stated in the manga volume that boosts or amps varies per inherent magical power.

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Even then it doesn't matter because there are no Massively FTL+ feats to justify the insane multiplier stacking Black Clover's speed tiers have rn, the speed stacking with AP isn't even consistent between EOMS and Royal Knights tiers

thats A LOT of verses we can remove stacking for then
we lack feats, but based on the calculations tell us how fast they should be moving at that point in the story because the fodder characters have LOOONG been left in the dust in every single aspect I can think of.
However, any anti feats for MFTL and MFTL+?

 

[Joshyyy_64]

The thread has passed 48 hours and like 6 mods have agreed and 0 disagreed. With almost no arguments against this. How much more will this be kept up for

stop rushing please? Would be much appriciated if you humbled yourself just a little. Thank youuu

 

[CloverDragon03]

stop rushing please? Would be much appriciated if you humbled yourself just a little. Thank youuu

"Humbled yourself" Literally what do you mean? He's right that by our standards, I could start applying changes and have this thread closed

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why are you rushing this? If you have nothing to add to the discussion kindly unfollow the thread.

1. One of the mods haven’t read the arguments,
2. There are more arguments coming when I get more time.
3. The calc we are deffering to is completely wrong and I’m currently recalcing it.

Again if you have nothing to add, leave you can’t rush something as massive as this.

You also have zero staff support on your side though so I'm not sure how long you wanna keep this up for. I'm not gonna go in circles trying to convince the few people that disagree with this

You're saying not to rush it, and for the record that's why I haven't already begun applying changes, but how long do you think you can hold this thread up for?

The calc you're deferring to has also been accepted by 2 CGMs so idk what you're on about

 

[Joshyyy_64]

"Humbled yourself" Literally what do you mean? He's right that by our standards, I could start applying changes and have this thread closed

1 mod left and 0 refutals from you or anyone else's end. it's very interesting how the vsbw conducts discussions I can't lie.

 

[KingTempest]

Bro shut up

 

[CloverDragon03]

1 mod left and 0 refutals from you or anyone else's end. it's very interesting how the vsbw conducts discussions I can't lie.

I gave refutations. Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean they don't exist. I said in advance already that after my last big post, I'd avoid more massive posts like this due to worrying about just constantly going in circles. I don't need to convince the few people disagreeing with the thread for it to go through, I just need the appropriate support

 

[DaReaperMan]

Blue names when they realize they may as well never comment on any CRTs

 

[Eseseso]

Considering SIX staff agreed to the OP, any claims that this is being rushed are utter bull.

IMO just feel free to add the changes whenever you get the chance, Clover.

I'd help but I don't know squat about BC.

 

[KingTempest]

It's been over 2 days

 

[SunDaGamer]

thats A LOT of verses we can remove stacking for then

If they're in the same boat as BC's MFTL+ speed stacking then they should have that stacking removed from their scaling, other verse's doing stuff isn't an excuse to ignore site standards.

we lack feats, but based on the calculations tell us how fast they should be moving at that point in the story because the fodder characters have LOOONG been left in the dust in every single aspect I can think of.

The site standards are that the higher multipliers are stacked, the more evidence is needed for that scaling, in order to get MFTL+ BC approved by speed stacking, there needs to be a feat on the level of MFTL+. I don't think Patry using Demon Light Magic has been blitzed and I've already brought up how Zetten's amps are additional evidence for MP and Speed not scaling 1:1 in all cases

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I remain convinced by Clover.

Same.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Blue names when they realize they may as well never comment on any CRTs

Red names when any decision they make gets scrutiny cause they have a position that blue names don’t

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Bro shut up

Psst, we suppose to calm down these situations

But yeah, at this point, this honestly can be added and the thread subsequently closed.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The thing is, though... Julius, as the Wizard King, is superior to all the other Magic Knights at the time.

Well, if I can’t get any more time… I’ll just say that it’s double standards how this logic is applied to speed but not AP.

If Magic Knights are allowed to be stronger than Julius. Why can't they be faster? So I better see a CRT capping the verse on Julius' Island level tier if we all agreed to this logic.

Nozel Intercepts Light: 0.89c (Relativistic+)

Not only that but we are using an incorrect calc for Scaling. We are not supposed to use the Pythagorean theorem for any triangle aside from right-angled triangles.

Its a shame that 2 CGMs did not catch that.

Im not even going to mention the calc you made that will now be an outlier as a result of this so don't even bother making a crt to get that accepted.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, if I can’t get any more time… I’ll just say that it’s double standards how this logic is applied to speed but not AP.

If Magic Knights are allowed to be stronger than Julius. Why can't they be faster? So I better see a CRT capping the verse on Julius' Island level tier if we all agreed to this logic.

If anything, it would be an upgrade for Julius, one that I'd say is even more solid than for speed considering he's literally called the strongest Magic Knight multiple times. It's not a double standard, either, because Julius also doesn't admit inferiority to a certain AP level like how he admits inferiority to light speed

Not only that but we are using an incorrect calc for Scaling. We are not supposed to use the Pythagorean theorem for any triangle aside from right-angled triangles.

Its a shame that 2 CGMs did not catch that.

Im not even going to mention the calc you made that will now be an outlier as a result of this so don't even bother making a crt to get that accepted.

There's literally no better way to do it. Everything else is either not manageable or is less accurate.

I get you're bitter about the downgrade but don't make it so obvious

 

[Majinere566]

Note: Do NOT turn this into a discussion about Attack Potency. The AP buffs are far more supported within the story, and this discussion is strictly about speed.

Well, if I can’t get any more time… I’ll just say that it’s double standards how this logic is applied to speed but not AP.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Isn't Julius a hax based fighter anyways, I don't see why his AP should be a topic

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If anything, it would be an upgrade for Julius, one that I'd say is even more solid than for speed considering he's literally called the strongest Magic Knight multiple times. It's not a double standard, either, because Julius also doesn't admit inferiority to a certain AP level like how he admits inferiority to light speed

There's literally no better way to do it. Everything else is either not manageable or is less accurate.

Yeah, an upgrade for someone who was clearly damaged by an island level character.

Its obviously due to his Time Magic that he is the strongest. Nobody can beat Time Magic at the time. Even in the movie its implied Julius is only so powerful due to his time magic. It was stated that Julius is nowhere near Conrad's power and that he won due to Time Magic alone.

On top of it all. That line of logic clearly has nothing to do with speed anyway because there is no statement that Julius is the fastest Mage and this has been addressed many times yesterday in this thread.

Nozel FTL+ Calc has nothing to do with Julius and it is correct. Not to mention Mereoleona's FTL+ Calc provides consistency. The Rel+ calc is clearly wrong and should obviously be discarded if it is wrong.

Do the right

We can't pick and choose what to settle for, what integrity does this site have?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, an upgrade for someone who was clearly damaged by an island level character.

Didn't you literally say earlier that he was holding back his power with proof of this via Patry's own thoughts?

Its obviously due to his Time Magic that he is the strongest. Nobody can beat Time Magic. Even in the movie its implied Julius is only so powerful due to his time magic. It was stated that Julius is nowhere near Conrad's power and that he won due to Time Magic alone.

"Obviously."

Dude, Conrad literally had Elsdocia, that's why he needed to be sealed. Of course Conrad with Elsdocia would be superior to Julius. And if you think Julius isn't the strongest in AP, then why are you suggesting a cap to begin with?

On top of it all. That line of logic clearly has nothing to do with speed anyway because there is no statement that Julius is the fastest Mage and this has been addressed many times yesterday in this thread.

Julius outsped Nozel and Yami who scale to Rel+ in the LN, so my point still stands

Nozel FTL+ Calc has nothing to do with Julius and it is correct. Not to mention Mereoleona's FTL+ Calc provides consistency. The Rel+ calc is clearly wrong and should obviously be discarded if it is wrong.

Do the right

We can't pick and choose what to settle for, what integrity does this site have?

It's mathematically correct, but it's unusable because going by what's established in the story, Nozel < Julius < Light speed. And Nozel has better scaling than Mereoleona so her own FTL+ calc doesn't make sense in the story either. And the Rel+ calc isn't "clearly wrong" it's within a margin of error that's viable when there's literally no better option to go with. Everything else is either inaccurate or unfeasible

I genuinely think you're letting your bitterness over this CRT being accepted get to you. Seriously, just take a moment. It's not that serious.

 

[Worthless]

Nothing the opposition have given actually proves, without any form of doubt, that any increase in magic/mana translate to a 1:1 increase in power and speed. This isn’t stated or shown anywhere.

While it's not explicitly stated, it has been shown and implied multiple times. The "strong" evidence for this claim is in Chapter 130, where Langris countered his own magic, which was twice as fast and strong as his own, by increasing his own magical power [1]

 

[CloverDragon03]

While it's not explicitly stated, it has been shown and implied multiple times. The "strong" evidence for this claim is in Chapter 130, where Langris countered his own magic, which was twice as fast and strong as his own, by increasing his own magical power [1]

That's only Langris though, not for anyone else

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That's only Langris though, not for anyone else

Lucifero?
And why can’t both Zora and Langris be evidence that the logic holds? And at what arbitrary point does the logic hold? After Lucifero is added as evidence? Or until I run out of evidence?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Lucifero?
And why can’t both Zora and Langris be evidence that the logic holds?

Lucifero didn't amp himself though he just used more of what he was holding back

And that's still just 2 people... And yet again, there is none of the kind of support I've mentioned would be needed for this stack.

 

[Worthless]

Lucifero?
And why can’t both Zora and Langris be evidence that the logic holds? And at what arbitrary point does the logic hold? After Lucifero is added as evidence? Or until I run out of evidence?

Yes, all devils should. What increased Langris magic at that time is "negative energy".

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay Hey you might as well nuke the multi continental tiering because it's pure bullshit

If you have nothing meaningful to contribute, please don't comment

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Lucifero didn't amp himself though he just used more of what he was holding back

So what you’re saying is Lucifero used more magic power than he would normally use to match Zora?

That literally still helps my point. Magic power increase is still Magic power increase wether it’s an amp or done via no longer holding back.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So what you’re saying is Lucifero used more magic power than he would normally use to match Zora?

That literally still helps my point

More power and more speed, yes, as two separate components

Understand that the Lucifero point can support either argument depending on how it's framed

 

[DivineAura44]

That's only Langris though, not for anyone else

Why though? Why assume that? Magic is a universal construct which is pretty much the same across all characters. Assuming it works like this only for Langris is pretty dumb.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest @Damage3245 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus Sorry to do this but I looked at the scaling again and noticed a scaling issue caused by one of the calcs, so I've removed it from the scaling. Could you check the new scaling proposal?

 

[Worthless]

If you have nothing meaningful to contribute, please don't comment

If you really want me to explain why it's laughable, I can. But I've debated with you several times, so I just don't see the use in explaining it when you'll just say no to it regardless of how true it is. Zora magic is not even described as the power to double strength and speed anymore but as the power to double magic. There are several examples that support the idea that doubling magic would also double speed and power equally, and denying all of it just because of the terrible multiplier is Bull Shit to me. I recommend just dropping this devil percentage multiplier because it's pure bullshit anyway.