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Pokemon Tier 2 Hax Additions

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Was I called about the abstract existence stuff? If so I will say the same as (IIRC) in the last threads this was debated:
1. Why would Dialga and Palkia be the concepts of Time and Space, instead of being Time and Space itself? I have yet to see anything that suggests they are the concepts of those things instead of those things in and of themself.
2. Abstract existence defines as "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it." I don't think the Creation trio has evidence of Immortality caused by representing their respective thing. Quite the opposite, it's suggested that killing them (stopping Dialga's heart or Palkia's breath) would greatly destabilize time and space instead.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I'm pretty sure it fits Type 4 due of lacking laws, directions and time.

They created the multiverse, not Arceus, that's pretty much enough to prove so imo.
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Reality is more a misnomer on its own; it is more so predating the conceptual association that matters in the case. For example, if just time is born alongside the concept of time, while something like the multiverse or reality doesn't exist, the concept would still be type 3. I learned from Kaltias who was a staff who help revised the current conceptual manipulation standard.
StrymULTRA said:
I'm pretty sure it fits Type 4 due of lacking laws, directions and time.
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I think it seems like a standard if the character doesn't qualified for Type 1 Acausality then they don't qualified for Acausality Type 4; It seems like the main reason why it was rejected since Giratina was affected by temporal paradox, in the thread that I linked regarding the topic.
 
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Elizhaa said:
I think it seems like a standard if the character doesn't qualified for Type 1 Acausality then they don't qualified for Acausality Type 4; It seems like the main reason why it was rejected since Giratina was affected by temporal paradox, in the thread that I linked regarding the topic.
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notthing of type 4 acausality's description says you need to meet the requirements of type 1 tho
 
acausal type 1 has nothing to do with type 4,there are countless characters in this wiki don't have type 1 but still have type 4 normally
 
DontTalkDT said:
Why would Dialga and Palkia be the concepts of Time and Space, instead of being Time and Space itself? I have yet to see anything that suggests they are the concepts of those things instead of those things in and of themself.
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Because they are the space and time that created the multiverse. It wouldn't be possible if they are just the space time of it, they can't create themselves.
DontTalkDT said:
Abstract existence defines as "Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it." I don't think the Creation trio has evidence of Immortality caused by representing their respective thing. Quite the opposite, it's suggested that killing them (stopping Dialga's heart or Palkia's breath) would greatly destabilize time and space instead.
Click to expand...
That's literally just a figurative speech and that reflects to their avatars at best. Time itself can't have an heart to begin with.
Elizhaa said:
Reality is more a misnomer on its own; it is more so predating the conceptual association that matters in the case. For example, if just time is born alongside the concept of time, while something like the multiverse or reality doesn't exist, the concept would still be type 3. I learned from Kaltias who was a staff who help revised the current conceptual manipulation standard.
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I mean, there were just the concepts of Space, Time, Antmatter and Spirit, the multiverse with "regular" space-time was created from these beings.
Elizhaa said:
I think it seems like a standard if the character doesn't qualified for Type 1 Acausality then they don't qualified for Acausality Type 4; It seems like the main reason why it was rejected since Giratina was affected by temporal paradox, in the thread that I linked regarding the topic.
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Type 4 Acausality doesen't need to be also Type 1, as they're based on different things.
 
Delta333 said:
acausal type 1 has nothing to do with type 4,there are countless characters in this wiki don't have type 1 but still have type 4 normally
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I wholeheartedly agree with this thy newly discovered *********!no i will never drop that
 
Delta333 said:
acausal type 1 has nothing to do with type 4,there are countless characters in this wiki don't have type 1 but still have type 4 normally
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^

Acasuality types isn't like a hierarchy where its like 5>4>3>2>1 and you need to go up the totem pole in that order to get the other types. They're all different forms of Acasuality that branch out from what Acasuality as a whole is, so you don't need 1 to get another and vice versa.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
^

Acasuality types isn't like a hierarchy where its like 5>4>3>2>1 and you need to go up the totem pole in that order to get the other types. They're all different forms of Acasuality that branch out from what Acasuality as a whole is, so you don't need 1 to get another and vice versa.
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Also because Type 2 and 3 are literal opposites of each other to say one.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
^

Acasuality types isn't like a hierarchy where its like 5>4>3>2>1 and you need to go up the totem pole in that order to get the other types. They're all different forms of Acasuality that branch out from what Acasuality as a whole is, so you don't need 1 to get another and vice versa.
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Just to be fair, a lot of those characters could also qualify for causality type 1 from their acausality descriptions. Since unwritten accepted standards tend to be things, I look up the thread where the acausality types were accepted and nothing mentioned type 1 acausality or like was needed for type 4 acausality; I guess the point is fair unless I found a thread where a clear explanation of the logic exists.
 
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Actually, unless this is across a higher temporal dimension than that of a regular space-time continuum, wouldn't being paradoxed contradict existing on a separate form of causality?
 
Giratina not having type 1 acausality is "strange", considering that Giratina has been referred by GameFreak as a living space-time paradox.
Giratina being affected by a time loop of Dialga seems to be more a Dialga feat than a Giratina weakness.
 
Planck69 said:
Actually, unless this is across a higher temporal dimension than that of a regular space-time continuum, wouldn't being paradoxed contradict existing on a separate form of causality?
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I think so. It could have the reason why acausality type 4 was removed, looking back.
 
I think Elizhaa makes sense for the most part to be perfectly honest. And Type 5 Acausality I know it was brought up earlier, and to my knowledge it is like 1-A levels of Acausality resistance is the requirement for that. But Type 4 makes sense to me.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Because they are the space and time that created the multiverse. It wouldn't be possible if they are just the space time of it, they can't create themselves.
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Do you have any statement about them being the concept? If the statement says they are space/time, then that can't be interpreted as them being just the concept of it. That would be like saying that a statement that something is a rock, can be interpreted as it being the concept of a rock. That is wrong. A concept is not an instance of itself. The concept of a rock is never a rock.
Being higher order space or time wouldn't really matter in that regard either.

Also you would only get Dialga and Palkia to be "not spacetime", which wouldn't imply them being conceptual. Lots of things that aren't spacetime aren't conceptual.

StrymULTRA said:
That's literally just a figurative speech and that reflects to their avatars at best. Time itself can't have an heart to begin with.
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It definitely implies that their existence sustains spacetime not the other way around. And I see no evidence in favor of them having such immportality to begin with.
 
NeoZex6399 said:
Giratina not having type 1 acausality is "strange", considering that Giratina has been referred by GameFreak as a living space-time paradox.
Giratina being affected by a time loop of Dialga seems to be more a Dialga feat than a Giratina weakness.
Click to expand...
^

Plus, all of the creation trio's dimensions exist beyond the multiverse. Giratina was paradox'd inside it's realm.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I think Elizhaa makes sense for the most part to be perfectly honest. And Type 5 Acausality I know it was brought up earlier, and to my knowledge it is like 1-A levels of Acausality resistance is the requirement for that. But Type 4 makes sense to me.
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Well, it's not limited to 1-A though it's exponentially harder to prove for lower tiers.
 
Antvasima said:
What have our staff and knowledgeable members accepted here so far?
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Well everyone disagrees with Acausality 5, theirs some debate on Acausality 4. But mostly it's a case of some staff and knowledgeables agreeing to Abstract Existence Type 1 and Conceptual Manipulation Type 2, while others disagree. So that's where most of the debate is.
 
Antvasima said:
What have our staff and knowledgeable members accepted here so far?
Click to expand...
Type 5 Acausality was rejected from everyone.

Everything else was accepted from Plank, Kieran, Kukui, Everything and Yuri.

Elizhaa, DDM and DontTalk have still some doubts.
 
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Acausality Type 5 used to be limited to 1-A and up in the past, to be fair; it was later revised to not be limited to these high tiers.
I think the tiering system changes also made it harder for 1-A and up tiers as these characters are still can still be limited by things like space and time and all lower 1-A concepts unlike they were in the past.
unlike they were in the past.
Yes, more solid evidence is needed to prove acausality Type 5.
 
I haven't read the entire thread tbh, but from what is in the blog I'm against acausality type 4 or 5.
Causality has limited relation to time. While causality usually runs from past to future, beyond that the concepts are largely disconnected. I don't think existing in timeless voids and the like qualifies for those types of acausality by default. At least it would be news to me.

Btw. regarding the dialga resisting time based abilities thing: Isn't PMD by now not included in the canon anymore?
 
Delta333 said:
power null doesn't work like that,one character doesn't need to nullify all of haxes in this wiki to prove that he can nullify many different types of haxs rather than only hax that he has nullified in canon,here is no different,Dialga can nullify time based hax because he can manipulate time,he doesn't need to nullify all time based hax in series to prove it
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I mean reality warpers can wrestle control of reality from each in fiction and from the better ones, they can wrestling of control can be greater. The case can be the same for time manipulation users. I think the standards exist. I feel I could see a case of note similar to what is accepted in Magic Gods profiles like The High Priest:
  • As Dialgia can control time in this numerous ways, it should be able to wrestle around the control of the time it can manipulate.
I feel the point is iffy saying Dialgia power null all time-based powers.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Type 5 Acausality was rejected from everyone.

Everything else was accepted from Kieran, Kukui, Everything and Yuri.

Elizhaa, DDM and DontTalk have still some doubts.
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I think one should have a section more specific to the staff's votes since CRT acceptance is largely based on the points.

Edit: I disagree with Omnipresence for Creation and Lake Trio since they are limited by definition to being Nigh-Omnipresence at best.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I haven't read the entire thread tbh, but from what is in the blog I'm against acausality type 4 or 5.
Causality has limited relation to time. While causality usually runs from past to future, beyond that the concepts are largely disconnected. I don't think existing in timeless voids and the like qualifies for those types of acausality by default. At least it would be news to me.
Click to expand...
Added some scans in the description now, is now enough?
DontTalkDT said:
Btw. regarding the dialga resisting time based abilities thing: Isn't PMD by now not included in the canon anymore?
Click to expand...
It is now.
 
Elizhaa said:
I mean reality warpers can wrestle control of reality from each in fiction and from the better ones, they can wrestling of control can be greater. The case can be the same for time manipulation users. I think the standards exist. I feel I could see a case of note similar to what is accepted in Magic Gods profiles like The High Priest:
  • As Dialgia can control time in this numerous ways, it should be able to wrestle around the control of the time it can manipulate.
I feel the point is iffy saying Dialgia power null all time-based powers.
Click to expand...
reality warpers and time users in many situations don't nullify hax,I don't see why this case is same as your example,Dialga can nullify time hax because he can manipulate time,same as others's power null he doesn't need to show what hax he can null,simply base on how his hax work we can determine what hax can be nulled
 
 
Because Executor is in the middle of making a blog about that, and theirs quite a lot of Pokémon works to look over and write about.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I haven't read the entire thread tbh, but from what is in the blog I'm against acausality type 4 or 5.
Causality has limited relation to time. While causality usually runs from past to future, beyond that the concepts are largely disconnected. I don't think existing in timeless voids and the like qualifies for those types of acausality by default. At least it would be news to me.
Click to expand...
May I ask, if you existed before the concept of time and causality, but were created by something within both time and causality, with a power that transcends time and causality, would it be Type 4?
 
Also, just to note, how come the LT wouldn't get higher dimensional existence either? The anime confirms that they have their own dimensions as well, just like the creation trio do.
 
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