Pokemon Tier 2 Hax Additions

[NeoZex6399]

Yeah, they were. It can be interpreted in more ways, like Arceus creating Giratina after the 2 wished to.

Nope, is stated that Giratina was born along with Dialga and Palkia.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nope, is stated that Giratina was born along with Dialga and Palkia.

Meh, I can see that but it being also the Matter other than the Antimatter should still be reasonable tho.

 

[theultimate5105]

Giratinas Antimatter is more the opposite of the world itself
The best way to describe it would be Anti-existence
NEP Giratina lol

 

[Overlord775]

Meh, I can see that but it being also the Matter other than the Antimatter should still be reasonable tho.

i don't think so since we never saw any reference to him being matter

 

[Everything12]

Anti-SpaceTime more like, that's the idea they talked about in the interview when they talked about how Giratina and the Distortion World is based on Anti-Matter.

 

[deonment]

I disagree with cm 2 cause uh resetting reality does not really=cm 2, also acasuality type 5 is no, the rest looks good

 

[theultimate5105]

I disagree with cm 2 cause uh resetting reality does not really=cm 2, also acasuality type 5 is no, the rest looks good

CM2 is based off destroying the concept of spirit when resetting which is CM2

 

[StrymULTRA]

I disagree with cm 2 cause uh resetting reality does not really=cm 2

You do know that these concepts actually shape reality even before ts existence right? Is already explained in the Type 1 AE part, and other verses as PMMM or Archie verse has Type 2 CM because of such. So you're gonna make a wiki-wide CRT for that.

 

[Planck69]

You do know that these concepts actually shape reality even before ts existence right? Is already explained in the Type 1 AE part, and other verses as PMMM or Archie verse has Type 2 CM because of such. So you're gonna make a wiki-wide CRT for that.

I'll point out that he doesn't have to at all. It's entirely possible for both those verses to be wrong. Him correcting it here if necessary is perfectly fine.

This "But ABC has it!" logic is very weak as a defense for anything here

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll point out that he doesn't have to at all. It's entirely possible for both those verses to be wrong. Him correcting it here if necessary is perfectly fine.

This "But ABC has it!" logic is very weak as a defense for anything here

Well, there's also that both the CT and LT are actually before the multiverse since they've created it and aren't just the space-time of the multiverse but are the concepts which shape and have created it before its existence, a thing that couldn't be possible if they were Type 3.

EDIT: Plus other explanations of the Doc.

 

[deonment]

and my memory once again proves to be garbaj, forgot that the lake trio as a whole made up spirit, thought that spirt was just a lesser manifestation of them, also it resetting reality is not proof of cm2, madoka has other proofs and i dont remember the case of sonic

 

[StrymULTRA]

and my memory once again proves to be garbaj, forgot that the lake trio as a whole made up spirit, thought that spirt was just a lesser manifestation of them

Np

also it resetting reality is not proof of cm2

Well, normally yeah, but from yeeting outta existence a concept which shapes said reality which even was before it it comes Type 2.

madoka has other proofs and i dont remember the case of sonic

I don't recall such, but it's starting to derail, MB.

 

[Delta333]

actually PMMM has type 2 for different reason

 

[StrymULTRA]

actually PMMM has type 2 for different reason

Uhm, I recall that it was in a recent Q&A thread because "It completely reset the reality from destroying the concept fo witch from any possible point of time"

 

[Delta333]

Uhm, I recall that it was in a recent Q&A thread because "It completely reset the reality from destroying the concept fo witch from any possible point of time"

she can reset reality by using type 2 concept but the main reason is destroying the concept of witches throughout past,present and future,even before the witches were born

 

[StrymULTRA]

she can reset reality by using type 2 concept but the main reason is destroying the concept of witches throughout past,present and future,even before the witches were born

It's kinda similar to this case as I said then, since The Spirit shapes the multiverse and is even born before it, so nuking it would be Type 2 due of it shaping and predating the space-time of the multiverse.

 

[Planck69]

Well, there's also that both the CT and LT are actually before the multiverse since they've created it and aren't just the space-time of the multiverse but are the concepts which shape and have created it before its existence, a thing that couldn't be possible if they were Type 3.

EDIT: Plus other explanations of the Doc.

I have little comment on the power itself but my main issue was with how you defended your stance.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have little comment on the power itself but my main issue was with how you defended your stance.

If that's the case then I'm sorry, I wanted to compare to other cases to enforce it being Type 2.

 

[Delta333]

It's kinda similar to this case as I said then, since The Spirit shapes the multiverse and is even born before it, so nuking it would be Type 2 due of it shaping and predating the space-time of the multiverse.

the concept of witches can exist before the witches were born so it means that concept doesn't depend on the existence of the witches to exist,which is type 2 concept,I haven't finished your entire CRT so I can't tell if it is same or not

 

[Planck69]

The main thing that has to be proven is that these concepts;

• Are independent of their reality and thus their objects. As in, destroying all time wouldn't affect the concept of time.
• All reality participates in them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

the concept of witches can exist before the witches were born so it means that concept doesn't depend on the existence of the witches to exist

Well, it kinda confirms it being Type 2 in my case, Dialga and Palkia are space-time, yet they are existed before the multiverse, aka this means that they aren't reliant on the space-time of the multiverse to exist. This applies to Giratina and the LT since their concept isn't reliant on that being in the multiverse as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Are independent of their reality and thus their objects. As in, destroying all time wouldn't affect the concept of time.

Def Type 2 then, thanks for confirmation.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Agree with everything but Type 5 Acausality.

Also there's this feat with Dialga putting Giratina in a time loop to escape him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

loop

Already put it in the Dialga revised blog.

 

[Delta333]

Well Yuri is knowledgeable on conceptual stuff so if he agrees with it I guess type 2 concept is fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

Seems like that everything except Type 5 Acausality is accepted from a good majority. Can the profiles already be unlocked so I can apply the changes?

 

[Everything12]

Same here, Yuri agreeing clears my doubts. I agree to everything that isn't Acausality 5.

 

[Elizhaa]

• Higher Dimensional Existence
  • I think it is already on the profiles.
• Omnipresence
  • In my view, it is nigh-omnipresence at best for Creation and Lake Trio since it limited the concepts they embody.
    • This power is similar to omnipresence, except that the users are bound within a certain domain, such as time, space, light, or nothingness.
• Large Size (Type 9)
  • I think it is already on the profiles.
• Avatar Creation
  • I think it is already on the profiles.
• Nigh-Omniscience
  • I am fairly sure we never scale Nigh-Omniscience to a form of Omnipresence without extra proofs.
• Abstract Existence Type 1
  • For Lake and Creation Trio, it was accepted first then rejected later. It seems like more solid proof that their non-corporeal form is their concept or they do not abstract existence. I think it was recently rejected in another thread. I am neutral but leaning it could be logically sounds but more staffs inputs on the matter are needed.
• Acausality Type 4
  • It was also accepted and later rejected by many past staffs who were familiar with Pokemon.
• We see them treating all the reality and dimensions in both the Diamond and Pearl versions as well, and we can notice a nice thing about the effects of the spirit destruction. Cyrus stated that it would not just change the world, but completely reset it from zero, meaning that is actually Conceptual Manipulation Type 2.
  • it still sounds like type 3; for what we got as the concept of Dialga and Palkia are multiversal so just them being unaffecting by changes to the specific universe wouldn't really prove anything as changes to all associated objects/beings are needed by definition to affect type 3 concepts.
• For Darkrai, also, I'd like to point out that it tanking Dialga and Palkia's abilities isn't = resisting all the CT stuff, so I'd like to make it just the regular resistances of Dialga/Palkia and the ones of a regular Dark Type.
  • Edit: Seems fine.
• On Arceus' case, it isn't the case that it accepted that Arceus doesn't have every power since I saw the upscaling points be argued? From what I remember, it was the case.
• Let’s start with Dialga, the best CT member, who hasn’t much to add, except Power Nullification against Time Based abilities of other characters.
  • It would have it for time travel only, at best. Saying it power nullifies all time-based abilities seems like a reach to me.
• Edit: Acausality Type 5's evidences are not solid enough.

 

[StrymULTRA]

• Higher Dimensional Existence
  • I think it is already on the profiles.
• Omnipresence
  • In my view, it is nigh-omnipresence at best for Creation and Lake Trio since it limited the concepts they embody.
    • This power is similar to omnipresence, except that the users are bound within a certain domain, such as time, space, light, or nothingness.
• Large Size (Type 9)
  • I think it is already on the profiles.
• Avatar Creation
  • I think it is already on the profiles.
• Nigh-Omniscience
  • I am fairly sure we never scale Nigh-Omniscience to a form of Omnipresence without extra proofs.

They are already on the profiles, I've just remarked them.

Abstract Existence Type 1

• For Lake and Creation Trio, it was accepted first then rejected later. It seems like more solid proof that their non-corporeal form is their concept or they do not abstract existence. I think it was recently rejected in another thread. I am neutral but leaning it could be logically sounds but more staffs inputs on the matter are needed.

Well, the arguments are different and they're really old threads. Also it was already accepted from all the staff here.

Acausality Type 4

• It was also accepted and later rejected by many past staffs who were familiar with Pokemon.

Again, is good to go since no one actually rejected it, stop using old threads of 2 years ago.

• • it still sounds like type 3; for what we got as the concept of Dialga and Palkia are multiversal so just them being unaffecting by changes to the specific universe wouldn't really prove anything as changes to all associated objects/beings are needed by definition to affect type 3 concepts.

Excuse me? The reset was to all the multiverse as already explained, also as you can see in this thread, it was confirmed being Type 2.

On Arceus' case, it isn't the case that it accepted that Arceus doesn't have every power since I saw the upscaling points be argued? From what I remember, it was the case.

All the Pokémon powers come from the Plates, and everything is a mere aspect of Arceus. It not having them is non-logic.

• • I would have it for time travel only, at best. Saying it power nullifies all time-based abilities seems like a reach to me.

Proof of just Time Travel? Dialga manipulates Time itself, just Time Travel but not other time based powers is non-sense too.

 

[Everything12]

Strym no offence, but you're sounding a bit too harsh. Anyway, anyone here knows which users are considered knowledgeable on Type 2 Concepts?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I am extremely busy atm so for the moment I can't give full blown responses to things here, but I will say to point this out, Arceus having all Pokemon abilities was already officially accepted in Cal's thread here. It just hasn't been added to his page yet, but at the bare minimum, Arceus gets this. He should have gotten it already, but it's delayed for not deciding how it should be placed on his page.

I'll be back later when I can, but like everyone said, everything sans T5 Acasuality is good with me too.

 

[Delta333]

I would have it for time travel only, at best. Saying it power nullifies all time-based abilities seems like a reach to me.

power null doesn't work like that,one character doesn't need to nullify all of haxes in this wiki to prove that he can nullify many different types of haxs rather than only hax that he has nullified in canon,here is no different,Dialga can nullify time based hax because he can manipulate time,he doesn't need to nullify all time based hax in series to prove it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Strym no offence, but you're sounding a bit too harsh. Anyway, anyone here knows which users are considered knowledgeable on Type 2 Concepts?

Already called DT

 

[Elizhaa]

Again, is good to go since no one actually rejected it, stop using old threads of 2 years ago.

No new arguments are really brought up and current profiles are based on that thread so it is relevant.

All the Pokémon powers come from the Plates, and everything is a mere aspect of Arceus. It not having them is non-logic.

Anti-feats and inconsistencies were I believe the key reasons why they were removed. Since Arceus having all Pokemon abilities was already officially accepted in Cal's thread here as pointed out by ProfessorKukui4Life, I would be fine with them.

Again, is good to go since no one actually rejected it, stop using old threads of 2 years ago.

Stop using old threads of 2 years ago is a not counter-argument. The point is still relevant since it was accepted on the profiles.

Excuse me? The reset was to all the multiverse as already explained, also as you can see in this thread, it was confirmed being Type 2.

The scan said universe. I didn't see the multiverse. From what I remember, CT and LK don't predate time and space, as they came into existence alongside space and time, specifically as embodiments of said aspects of Arceus' creation as Kep said. Being born alongside a concept isn't solid proof of conceptual manipulation type 2; in this case, predating reality needed is more so needed to predate the associate object/to be conceptual manipulation Type 2.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No new arguments are really brought up and current profiles are based on those thread so they are relevant. Old thread still stands.

Which are now elaborated better in the doc

The scan said universe. I didn't see the multiverse.

He was referring to the multiverse here

in this case, predating reality needed is more so needed to predate the associate object/to be conceptual manipulation Type 2.

They do as already explained in the Type 1 AE part.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Strym no offence, but you're sounding a bit too harsh. Anyway, anyone here knows which users are considered knowledgeable on Type 2 Concepts?

According to the knowledgeable members list: Elizhaa (who's already here), Executor N0 and myself.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I mean, Strym is right when we really shouldn't be using threads from years back that use outdated arguments under different circumstances than whats being brought up in the here and now. Especially when half of those arguments got debunked mid-way into those lengthly old threads anyway.

Such as the "Arceus having all abilities" bit, which the argument from Assault was, no offense, rather terrible.

 

[Everything12]

@Executor_N0
If your not too busy could you give this a look over?

 

[Elizhaa]

He was referring to the multiverse here

Fair. I saw all dimensions mentioned and also stated being distorted. I guess it would be proof type 2 from transcending reality concept since they seem unaffected by the distortion and also heaavly implied post-destruction of all dimensions, assuming no anti-feats.

Which are now elaborated better in the doc

I used a similar Giritina's arguments already and it was rejected.

They do as already explained in the Type 1 AE part.

It is not solid enough to show they predate all their association, in my views.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I used a similar Giritina's arguments already and it was rejected.

I'm pretty sure it fits Type 4 due of lacking laws, directions and time.

It is not solid enough to show they predate all their association, in my views.

They created the multiverse, not Arceus, that's pretty much enough to prove so imo.