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Which is why I mentioned the overarching timeline since I'm unsure how that would work for a standard paradox in a standard continuum.
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Pokemon Tier 2 Hax Additions
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I think it just works, Reverse Flash and Flash come to mind (both CW and comics) where they both resist paradoxes and then some dude comes along and paradoxes them, without any mention of overarching timelines and the like.
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- #123
Honestly, I don't even recall Origin Form Giratina being paradoxed as well. Dialga trapping Giratina with the Loop is a feat for the former rather than an anti-feat of the latter, especially when is stated two times that time isn't a thing in the Distortion World.
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On top of that, Giratina wasn't particularly effected all that much by the paradox either. Dialga's loop just prevented it from physically leaving the distortion world.
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Also what stops Dialga from creating time (locally) in the distortion world to then time loop Giratina? Kinda like Doctor Strange vs Dormammu.
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- #127
Former.
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- #128
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Oh. Then I guess the "paradoxing" isn't really an anti-feat for Type 4 Acausality. Of course, whether it qualifies to begin with is a whole other topic, one that I'll leave to the knowledgeable members.
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Nothing here was created before causality as far as I am aware. They were created before time, which isn't the same thing. I know characters completly beyond the concept of time which don't have Type 4.
Being created before causality exist would be type 4, however causality can exist before time does.
Nothing in these scans really adds anything speaking for acausality beyond what the doc said from what I see.
Honestly, seeing how inconsistent it is with the main canon that sounds like a terrible move. If that's the case Dialga needs the weakness that it turns mad and time stops running if the temporal tower is destroyed.
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No, it doesn't, because that weakness doesn't apply to normal Dialga. It's for his Primal self only.
Valiant_Abyss
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Wasn't the entire plot context of PMD2 though was that Temporal Tower began collapsing which is what caused Dialga to go primal to begin with though?
Valiant_Abyss
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I mean, but that being said, the weakness shouldn't be that massive of a deal anyways as it pretty much took many generations for Dialga to go primal, given that when you fight him in the present, he's able to speak normally but he's just severely on edge. Only Dialga in the future (which is many generations from the current time in PMD2 and we know this because Celebi says she needs to use the passage of time to travel many generations) has gone completely mad and entirely self-preservation focused.
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The collapse of Temporal Tower wasn't what caused Dialga to go Primal though, it was Darkrai specifically capturing the time gears out of the tower that did.
The tower collapsing causes an already Primal Dialga to go into its angry uncontrolled state.
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Well, as I stated in the Canon thread (And others as well), I'm working on my own blog entirely about the Creation and Lake trios plus Arceus, so I think isn't the right time for me to talk about this when I'm still developing my opinion with the information that I gathered (And I'm still looking for more info, playing Guardians Sings right now). So I'll not be able to help for some time, until I finish my blog.
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- #136
That applies to Primal Dialga, not regular Dialga, who is treated as even just Low 2-C here.
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Temporal Tower's collapse itself isn't what caused Dialga to go mad, when the tower collapse the flow of Time was disrupted causing Dialga to become corrupted as a side-effect, as Dialga is Time so its corruption would cause Dialga to become corrupted in turn. Why Temporal Tower was needed to keep time flowing properly when the main games assign Dialga that job? No clue.
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Still weird tho, it should be Type 4 because of the Law and Directions stuff if I got it correctly.
Valiant_Abyss
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That's not the case here according to context. From Grovyle's quote:
Nothing implies it was the Time Gears being stolen that caused Dialga to lose control. The Time Gears are only what caused the tower to collapse to begin with, which then in turn caused Dialga to go primal.
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For Giratina stuff, also
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
I mean, Giratina's world has laws completely distorted and lacks actual directions, and only it can move in it without issues, anyone else has troubles moving in it like in the regular world tbh.
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
I mean, Giratina's world has laws completely distorted and lacks actual directions, and only it can move in it without issues, anyone else has troubles moving in it like in the regular world tbh.
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Then it's what Everything said on this point then. The collapse of the tower itself doesn't cause the corruption, but time being the one corrupted does (since time is Dialga).
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PMD Dialga is potrayed as way weaker than the regular one for a reason.
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So what are the current votes for and against like now, and whats the main points of contention that need to be solved before this progresses?
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Acausality Type 5 is disagreed from everyone.
Agree with anything else: Plank, Kieran, Yuri, Kukui and Everything
Has various doubts about the CRT: DT, Elizhaa and DDM
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The things that are being discussed rn from the last 3 are Type 1 AE, Time Hax Nullification for Dialga and Type 4 Acausality.
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Type 1 Acausality?
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Meh, avatars don't have such due of lacking feats of it. Only exception are Dialga and Arceus, only that are Type 3 instead of just 1.
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Lmao nvm, noticed now that I wrote it from nowhere, MB, wanted to mean AE.
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Wrong, the destruction of the tower is what turns Dialga into its Primal Self. So it applies to normal Dialga just as much.
Neither directions nor laws of nature have anything to do with causality, though. Those would need to be the laws of causality specifically for that to matter.
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With said Dialga being just Low 2-C instead of 2-B/2-A thought.
Pretty sure that since they are Laws of reality causality should apply too.
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And again, no, it isn't. As was specified above, time getting corrupted is what turns Dialga into it's primal self. Not the destruction of the tower.
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To be fair, Magic Gods' case seems like they would have Type 4 Acausality and type 1 acausality, assuming no major anti-feats.
True. In the latter case, I think more context is needed to prove type 4 acausality.
I see. It seems like it is still would an antifeat for a type 2 concept; such a concept should be not affected by changes with its association, in normal cases.
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How would that be an anti-feat in the first place? Generally speaking, and not just for Pokemon?
If anything, the other viable result is that the corruption would be conceptual, and thats not out of left field since it effects time itself.
If anything, the other viable result is that the corruption would be conceptual, and thats not out of left field since it effects time itself.
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A concept being independent of changes to its object is actually the most major aspect of it being Type 2. So if a series shows something like transmuting all candy affecting the concept of candy, that's a pretty major anti-feat. It can be a feat for the transmutation only if we already have hard proof that its of that type in the first place.
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Thing is that is for Primal Dialga, not the actual Dialga, who already can freerly move in cracks of reality and space-time and isn't affected from space-time distortions either, so is either PIS or just PMD Dialga who is way inferior to the regular one.
Ik that really well, but, they have feat of not being affected from that stuff, as also heavily implied when Dialga/Palkia were distorting time or dimensions in the reset, it wouldn't make sense that they were affected from it in the setting.
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Dialga can also distort time as a regular attack (the needing to rest in the next turn in a game mechanic as Dialga even spams it in anime).
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Assuming they are abstractions (which also seems to be contested here), I fail to see how simply manipulating their objects is grounds for anything. It's not as though they shouldn't be able to.
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I think He is argueing that they are resisting as well as manipulating, since we don't assume characters who manipulate something can also resist it, you need feats for that... which he provided.
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These are just for the avatars anyways tho, I thought it was obvious.
^^^this
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The reason why i posted these feats is to prove that they actually resist space-time manipulation if anything.
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