- 40,459
- 12,939
That's dumb. Even the OBD has them as abstracts only capable of being destroyed through said abstractions, and we have the trio as much stronger than they have em.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)
- Thread starter Everything12
- Start date
- Status
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #42
Also I have a question, which source mentioned the Space & Time they embody is the Conceptual one instead of the normal non-Conceptual Space & Time?
I can't find any threads mentioning it and looking through all the different mentioned of them is like a needle in a haystack.
I can't find any threads mentioning it and looking through all the different mentioned of them is like a needle in a haystack.
- 4,182
- 1,477
You mean the Primal Dialga situation?The real cal howard said:
- 40,459
- 12,939
Yeah.
- 3,097
- 2,751
I think that the main problem is that some of the explanations for some of the arguments of "they aren't conceptual beings" are more a headcanon that makes sense, than something that is really confirmed. And this is worse when the very franchise doesn't make justice to these characters (Digimon suffers the same thing btw)The real cal howard said:
- 40,459
- 12,939
Difference is DIgimon has several characters with abstract existence. Hell, Digimon are examples for both types.
I've seen bigger leaps in logic to get conceptual shiz added. And everything I've shown has backing, and isn't speculation. It's actual feats without words. That's not about Digimon, btw. That's about the so-called others.
I've seen bigger leaps in logic to get conceptual shiz added. And everything I've shown has backing, and isn't speculation. It's actual feats without words. That's not about Digimon, btw. That's about the so-called others.
- 4,182
- 1,477
Dialga mentions that he could see the state of the world while Primal Dialga was operating, so I don't think he was really close to death.
- 3,097
- 2,751
I don't really have any problem with CT getting some type of AE or Conceptual Manipulation, at least by the info from the creation myths.
The biggest problem is for things that we don't really have a explanation and the rest is simply "headcanon". By the myths, the CT are time, space and anti-matter, their very being are these metaphysical constructs from were all the matter comes from. The only problem is when they appears in battle, and they don't look like that.
We explain that because of "avatars", but the turth is that this is in most part a headcanon that "makes sense". We know that Arceus created the CT before the world was created, and that Palkia was the creator of parallel dimensions, this is why he is the ruler of space and dimensions, and Dialga also works with other timelines, so we know that they are related to the multiverse. But the idea of "universal avatars" or something like that, is more of a headcanon to explain the big diference between the mythical and what we normally see.
For me is just a case of GF doesn't giving a answer for these things and the idea of a "universal avatar" is the one that makes the most sense, and this is why we use it (At least it's based on the official theory about Arceus/The Original One creating physical avatars).
The biggest problem is for things that we don't really have a explanation and the rest is simply "headcanon". By the myths, the CT are time, space and anti-matter, their very being are these metaphysical constructs from were all the matter comes from. The only problem is when they appears in battle, and they don't look like that.
We explain that because of "avatars", but the turth is that this is in most part a headcanon that "makes sense". We know that Arceus created the CT before the world was created, and that Palkia was the creator of parallel dimensions, this is why he is the ruler of space and dimensions, and Dialga also works with other timelines, so we know that they are related to the multiverse. But the idea of "universal avatars" or something like that, is more of a headcanon to explain the big diference between the mythical and what we normally see.
For me is just a case of GF doesn't giving a answer for these things and the idea of a "universal avatar" is the one that makes the most sense, and this is why we use it (At least it's based on the official theory about Arceus/The Original One creating physical avatars).
- 6,014
- 2,121
^I'm honestly agree with this.
- 40,459
- 12,939
You're right in that it makes the most sense, further supported by again, the canonical different Palkias/Dialgas we see in the same game, and their true existences still persisting after their physical forms getting captured.
- 3,651
- 264
I'm in agreement with Immunity to Soul Manipulation and Type 1 AB for the CRT, cause enough subtle context is there in other lore as well.
the type 2 concept evidence is too vague for me, but I'll stay neutral for that one.
the type 2 concept evidence is too vague for me, but I'll stay neutral for that one.
- 9,904
- 3,546
I don't think I still agree with type 2 concept, but I still agree with Soul manipulation immunity and Type 1 Abstract existance
- 40,459
- 12,939
Wait why shouldn't they have type 2 conceptual manipulation?
" 2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."
Pretty sure everything participates in time and space, and Dialga's descent straight up caused time to stop. Even with the lake trio, hurting Mesprit, the concept of emotion, makes you lose emotion altogether. And the lake trio embody the very thing they created. Cyrus's goal to get rid of all emotion across all of reality in his new universe involved using them as a proxy for his Red Chain. Pretty sure their "older brothers" don't have a different existence to them. Furthermore, they predate their concepts, and in Cyrus's new world, nothing implies that they died, so they exist after too.
" 2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."
Pretty sure everything participates in time and space, and Dialga's descent straight up caused time to stop. Even with the lake trio, hurting Mesprit, the concept of emotion, makes you lose emotion altogether. And the lake trio embody the very thing they created. Cyrus's goal to get rid of all emotion across all of reality in his new universe involved using them as a proxy for his Red Chain. Pretty sure their "older brothers" don't have a different existence to them. Furthermore, they predate their concepts, and in Cyrus's new world, nothing implies that they died, so they exist after too.
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #54
Thats all something Type 3 can do. The difference between Type 2 and Type 3 is that, Type 2 transcends reality while Type 3 is connected to it in such a way that destroying all of the things that partake in the Concept also destroys the Concept through a chain reaction.
Both Types would involve that damaging or destroying a Concept would interrupts everything's else ability to show that concept, but Type 3 would have it so that destroying everything that feels Emotion would destroy Emotion and Mespirit without having to interact with it or it's Concpet
Both Types would involve that damaging or destroying a Concept would interrupts everything's else ability to show that concept, but Type 3 would have it so that destroying everything that feels Emotion would destroy Emotion and Mespirit without having to interact with it or it's Concpet
- 40,459
- 12,939
Edited my above comment. In Cyrus's new world, nothing implied that the Lake Trio died, and given he completed his goal, his world lacks emotion. And Dialga still existed within permanently stopped time, albeit corrupted. Giratina too. It's shown through Lucas, who had a fraction of Giratina's essence, for killed and was brought back through the Distortion World. Giratina embodies the DW, and killing Giratina would leave the DW intact.
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #56
I don't think the first one would be enough evidence because while the Guardians aren't confirmed destroyed their they are also not confirmed to still exist, the other one might be a case but as you said the whole corruption thing makes it tricky and could be rejected.
- 40,459
- 12,939
Granted, I'm fine with type 1 abstraction and soul immunity.
- 40,459
- 12,939
Aren't the DW and the normal world two halves of the same coin? Destroying one destroys the other?
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #59
That is how it works, it's why Giratina intervened in Platinum.
- 40,459
- 12,939
Then there you go. Cyrus destroyed the universe in his winning timeline, which would've caused the DW to collapse. Giratina is confirmed to be perfectly fine afterwards as he's the one that yeeted Cyrus to Alola.
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #62
I guess so but destroying a single universe probably wouldn't effect the Multiversal Distortion World and True Giratina.
- 40,459
- 12,939
True, but it would affect the local one. Remember, like Dialga and Palkia, there has been confirmed to be multiple Giratinas in USUM.
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #65
True but the point stands the Concept that True Giratina embody would concern the entire Pokémon Multiverse thus destroying one Universe and its Distortion World wouldn't erase all the things that partake in the Concept.
- 4,182
- 1,477
It is said that Azelf keeps the balance of the world while it sleeps.
- 4,182
- 1,477
I don't think there's a distortion world by universe, tbh.
- 40,459
- 12,939
Did my words change anyone's opinions?
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #70
Mespirit: Although it slumbers at the bottom of the lake, its spirit is said to leave its body and flitter on the water surface.
This seems to suggest that the Lake Guardians do have Spirits thus shouldn't get Soul Manipulation Immunity
Also I'm pretty sure that a Avatar of Giratina surviving the destruction of its Universe wouldn't be evidence towards Type 2 Concepts as the Multiversal Concept of Giratina and the True form of Giratina would both be uneffected by such a thing and so the Avatar would most likely be able to continue regardless.
This seems to suggest that the Lake Guardians do have Spirits thus shouldn't get Soul Manipulation Immunity
Also I'm pretty sure that a Avatar of Giratina surviving the destruction of its Universe wouldn't be evidence towards Type 2 Concepts as the Multiversal Concept of Giratina and the True form of Giratina would both be uneffected by such a thing and so the Avatar would most likely be able to continue regardless.
- 12,562
- 2,516
To be honest, I'm not sure how your points show that true Dialga/Palkia/Giratina are type 1 abstracts. You don't need to be a type 1 abstract to have avatars separate from your true self. The closest thing there is the stuff about Dialga being directly affected by changes made to time, showing it has a conceptual link of sorts.
- 40,459
- 12,939
It just hit me that they don't have conceptual manipulation at all, barring Arceus. It's straight up confirmed that the Lake Trio imbued the concepts of willpower, emotion, and knowledge into life.
- 40,459
- 12,939
In that case I have no earthly idea what gets you any sort of abstraction.GyroNutz said:
- 7,142
- 4,655
- Thread starter
- #76
Type 1 Abstraction is a beings True Form having no form beyond your Abstract so that nothing can interact with them besides being able to interact with the Abstract.
- 40,459
- 12,939
But...they doGyroNutz said:
- 3,651
- 264
Lol that's a good one xDNiarobi (Formerly Hadou) said:
- 26,325
- 3,114
The CT existed before souls and physical matter existed, so they have no corporeal nor spiritul body, which very much qualifies for type 1 abtract existenceGyroNutz said:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
