Part I Revisions (Haku, Neji, Naruto), and Tobirama was there too

[LordTracer]

Haku and KN0 Naruto’s scaling was discussed here, and the majority of people agreed to it. However, I’ll list the scans again just so they can be easily referenced.

Haku

• Zabuza claims that even if Kakashi beats him, he can’t beat Haku.
• He held back against Naruto and Sasuke.
• Defends himself and Zabuza from Sai’s ink birds.
• Clashes with Rock Lee.
• Blocks a combined attack from Might Guy and Rock Lee.
• Intercepts a Raikiri from War Arc Kakashi.

However, based on the points made here by ShadowWhoWalks, Haku’s performance is somewhat inconsistent, so he should have two tiers.

Conclusion: Due to being inconsistent, Haku is given two AP and speed ratings. His AP is changed to ‘At least 8-B, possibly 7-C,’ and his speed is changed to ‘At least Supersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+. Higher via ice mirrors.’ This scales to absolutely no one, except the person I’m going to talk about next.

KN0 Naruto

• KN0 Naruto is able to catch Haku, keep up with him and overpower him.
• Zabuza states that KN0 Naruto’s chakra is “bigger” than Kakashi.

Conclusion: KN0 Naruto is upgraded to 7-C and ‘At least Supersonic, likely Massively Hypersonic+ via scaling above Part I Kakashi and Haku. He already performed a Low 7-C+ feat with less of the Kyuubi’s chakra, so it’s definitely not an outlier for him to be this strong. This AP scales only to Three-Tomoe Sharingan Sasuke and Base Kimimaro (who are already Low 7-C+ and scale to nobody else) and KN1 Naruto/CS2 Sasuke. CS2 Kimimaro and CS2 Sasuke (and then KN1 Naruto by extension) would them scale to High 7-C due to the 10x multiplier of CS2. There is another person who scales too, but he has scaling of his own.

Neji

• From the beginning of his fight with Hinata, he was striking her tenketsu, and Hiruzen and the jōnin only noticed near the end of the fight.
• Neji is stronger than Lee and his ultimate enemy, regardless of the Eight Gates.
• After seeing Neji perform the Eight Trigrams 64 Palms, Hiashi claims that he surpasses the entire main house of the Hyuuga clan.
• It took four jōnin at the same time to prevent him from killing Hinata.

Conclusion: Neji should be upgraded to 7-C, with his speed being ‘Hypersonic+, Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions.’ This only scales to CS2 Kidomaru (who is stronger than Neji, by the way), his CS1 state would then backscale 10x to Low 7-C Chōji and Hinata are currently scaled to Neji, but they shouldn’t be. Chōji has literally no reason to be on par with Neji, as Neji was directly stated to be the strongest member of the Sasuke Retrieval Squad and Neji stated that Hinata’s attacks had no effect on him.

Konoha Crush Naruto
This is an extremely minor revision. Naruto is currently scaled to Partially Transformed Gaara... no. That’s not a thing. Gaara effortlessly stomped Naruto. Naruto only affected Gaara after getting an amp, using all of his chakra, and Gaara was incapable of moving. So Naruto’s justification needs to be changed.

Tobirama
Why is Tobirama not plain Relativistic? “He was able to put several explosive strips on Juubito while he was being attacked.” This part of his justification alone sounds like movement/combat speed, not reactions. Also in his current justification; “He was said to be one of the fastest ninjas in the world in his day and reacted to an attack from Sage Mode Madara.” Madara said that Tobirama was THE fastest shinobi of his era, putting him above Hashirama and Madara (both of whom are Rel). And he didn’t just react to an attack from Sage Madara. He teleported out of the way of said attack at point-blank range. There’s also this, where his shadow clone could teleport in and grab a TSO at point-blank range from KCM2 Minato faster than Minato could himself, and faster than KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke could react

Overall
Haku

• AP - At least City Block level (While holding back, he was able to fight with Sasuke in the Land of Waves Arc), possibly Town level (Zabuza stated Kakashi wouldn’t be able to beat him. Clashed with Rock Lee as an Edo Tensei)
• Speed - At least Supersonic (Fought equally against Sasuke and Naruto in the Land of Waves Arc while holding back), possibly Massively Hypersonic+ (Intercepted Zabuza’s shuriken with his senbon. As an Edo Tensei, he reacted to simultaneous attacks from Might Guy and Rock Lee. Defended himself and Zabuza from Sai’s ink birds). Higher via ice mirrors (Intercepted a Raikiri from Kakashi during the Fourth Shinobi World War)
• Durability - At least City Block level, possibly Town level (Survived a blow from KN0 Naruto, who was using more of Kurama’s chakra than when he did this. As an Edo Tensei, he blocked the Konoha Hurricane Whirlwinds from Might Guy and Rock Lee)

KN0 Naruto

• AP - Town level (Zabuza stated that his chakra was “too strong” to be Kakashi. Completely overwhelmed Haku. Stopped the charge of Orochimaru’s snake with a little bit of the Kyuubi’s chakra)
• Speed - At least Supersonic, likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Outsped Haku, preventing him from reaching his ice mirrors)

Neji

• AP - Town level (Four jōnin were needed to stop him from killing Hinata. Stated by Hiashi to surpass the entire main branch of the Hyuuga Clan), higher via Kaiten (Clashed equally with KN0 Naruto)
• Speed - Hypersonic+, Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions (Kept up with KN0 Naruto. Struck Hinata’s tenketsu faster than Kakashi, Kurenai and Hiruzen could see. Superior to Rock Lee, even while he uses the Eight Gates)

Konoha Crush Naruto’s AP and durability justifications remove any mention of PT Gaara.

Tobirama’s speed is changed to plain Relativistic and his justification becomes “Stated to be the fastest shinobi of his day, including Hashirama and Madara. Reacted to and teleported out of the way of an attack from Sage Mode Madara. He was able to put several explosive strips on Juubito while he was being attacked. His shadow clone was able to reach a TSO at point-blank range from KCM2 Minato faster than Minato himself could, and it could teleport away faster than KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke could react to.”

 

[LordTracer]

I... did not mean to post that yet.

 

[Damage3245]

I can close it for you until you're ready if you want.

 

[LordTracer]

Well, the Kaguya thread seems to be winding down and everything that I wanted to put in the thread is there. So I guess it’s fine to just leave it open until that thread ends.

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, I would recommend replacing the scans in your arguments with the officially translated Viz scans.

Sometimes fan scans can give misleading info. (This can happen with official translations too, but less frequently).

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t have a Viz subscription at the moment, but if someone who does is willing to help, I can give them the chapter numbers so they can replace the scans.

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t have a Viz subscription at the moment, but if someone who does is willing to help, I can give them the chapter numbers so they can replace the scans.

You can find all of the Viz scans at ***********.com

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Just commenting to Remind myself of the thread.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, I’ve replaced all the scans (that are statement based).

 

[Metalija]

I agree with most things. I will comment more after the Kaguya thread ends.

 

[LordTracer]

A few things that I didn’t address in the OP:

Base Kidomaru could be 8-A, since he was stated to be significantly stronger than Jirobo. His CS1 state would be Low 7-C due to being 10x weaker than his CS2 that would be 7-C, which I said in the OP.

Hinata should still be 8-B, but due to scaling above the weaker genin like Sakura, Ino, Shikamaru, Tenten, etc.

 

[Damage3245]

There's bits and pieces that I'll go through soon when I have time, but I want to point out that in the scene of the Jonin stopping Neji, only three of them are actually restraining him, and all rather casually at that.

Also, Rock Lee's statement makes it seems as though it is Neji's skill in that "strongest fighting style" of the Leaf which is what makes him the "strongest student". Not his actual stats being higher than everybody including Rock Lee's Gates form.

 

[LordTracer]

No, it’s all four. Hayate has his fingers against his forehead, Gai has his arm around Neji’s neck, and Kurenai and Kakashi have both of his arms. And imo, none of them really look casual except Kakashi, but maybe that’s just me. Also the fact that four of them felt the need to intervene, even if they are all casual, definitely points to him being at least above one jōnin since otherwise, why didn’t just Hayate intervene? Why did Guy, Kakashi and Kurenai also step in?

And while that could be a valid interpretation, that would then bring up the question of why Lee was saving the Fifth Gate/Reverse Lotus as a move specifically for a fight with Neji if he was referring to pure taijutsu skill and not actual strength?

 

[Damage3245]

@LordTracer; in the heat of the moment I don't think any of them would just stand by and wait to see if somebody else is going to step in. When they see he needs to be stopped, they all rush in at once.

That's not the same thing as Neji being physically stronger than all of them individually and them all needing to team up to stop him.

As for the Rock lee bit, the Fifth Gate doesn't just amp Rock Lee's AP, but also his speed. To beat Neji's rotational defenses he may have needed the speed of the Fifth Gate. We currently give Neji MHS reaction speed on the basis that Rock Lee needs the Fifth Gate to defeat him.

 

[LordTracer]

Well, you can’t say that for sure considering that Asuma, another jōnin, was there and he didn’t step in. Plus, iirc, it was stated earlier that Hayate could run in and stop a fight if he needed to. If Neji was beneath the level of a single jōnin, then only Hayate could’ve stepped in like he’d already planned on. Kakashi, Guy and Kurenai wouldn’t have needed to step in.

Based on what Lee himself said, the Fifth Gate would be comparable to Neji (Lee never said that it could defeat Neji, he just said that he was planning on using it against him, implying that they’re comparable). And considering how Lee himself said Neji was the strongest of the Konoha 12, I would say that means they’re comparable in strength as well, not just speed.

 

[KingTempest]

Asuma didn't help because he was a slouch. Shikamaru flat out says he's unreliable.

An issue in the OP (no issue against you Tracer) is that you said he needed 4 Jonin to stop him.
He didn't need 4 Jonin.
Those 4 Jonin (Kakashi, Hayate, Kurenai and Gai) just wanted to help. In all honesty, each one of those Jonin (idk about Kurenai) could've handled Neji on their own. Hayate was the proctor, Kurenai wanted to save her student, Gai wanted to stop his student, and Kakashi is Kakashi. That has nothing to do with strength.

I wanted you to quickly recognize the scaling chain and consequences/benefits for MHS+ Chunin Exams Neji.

MHS+ = Neji ~ KN0 Naruto.
Rock Lee ≥ No Sharingan Sasuke ≥ Kidomaru ~ MHS+ Neji.
Chunin Exams Rock Lee ≥ Injured Rock Lee almost ~ Base Kimimaro and 3 Tomoe Sasuke both individually > KN0 Naruto.
Curse Mark Stage 2 as 10x multiplier would put Kimimaro and Sasuke (then Naruto and Kidomaru) at Sub-Relativistic, potentially Sub-Rel+.
The eight gates as an accepted 5x multiplier would put Rock Lee at Sub-Relativistic, potentially Sub-Rel+, potentially Relativistic with multiple boosts.
All of the Sound 4/5/whatever kept up w/ Base Sasuke who should be > Neji in the scaling, making them all Sub-Relativistic, potentially Sub-Rel+.
Everyone that matched with them would be Sub-Relativistic, potentially Sub-Rel+.

This would put Pre Timeskip characters at EOS Naruto mid-high tiers speeds, like the Raikage n KCM1 Naruto.

I agree with you 1000% on the Tobirama portion though.

 

[LordTracer]

In all honesty, each one of those Jonin (idk about Kurenai) could've handled Neji on their own.

Based on what? That seems purely like an assumption on your part. It was already established that Hayate has the right to step in during the exams if he feels it to be necessary. If he could’ve handled Neji on his own, then Kakashi, Gai and Kurenai’s help is unnecessary. Saying that any one of them could’ve handled Neji solo is baseless.

No Sharingan Sasuke ≥ Kidomaru

Where is this coming from? Also Lee with the Fifth Gate is comparable to Neji in speed, this was established already.

Injured Rock Lee almost ~ Base Kimimaro and 3 Tomoe Sasuke both individually > KN0 Naruto.

Pretty sure it was established in the Part I AP revisions that injured Lee fighting Kimimaro is an outlier. And we have Three Tomoe Sasuke as comparable to KN0 Naruto, not superior. Kimimaro would scale above Kidōmaru, yes, but nobody scales to CS2 Kimimaro regardless so it doesn’t mess up the scaling.

Base Sasuke who should be > Neji in the scaling

Says who?

Konoha Crush Sasuke = Weightless Lee <<< Fifth Gate Lee =< MHS+ = Neji = CS2 Kidomaru < Base Kimimaro < Sasuke Retrieval Gaara ≈ CS1 Kimimaro <<< CS2 Kimimaro.

All this does is upgrade Sasuke Retrieval Gaara to MHS+ and CS2 Kimimaro to Sub-Rel. And nobody scales to either of those characters. There are no issues here.

By the way, I’m about to go to sleep, so I won’t be able to respond to anything for a while.

 

[LordTracer]

One last Tobirama thing before I go. Sage Madara implied that Prime Tobirama would’ve been a threat to him, further supporting that he is Relativistic and faster than Hashirama and Madara.

 

[KingTempest]

Based on what? That seems purely like an assumption on your part. It was already established that Hayate has the right to step in during the exams if he feels it to be necessary. If he could’ve handled Neji on his own, then Kakashi, Gai and Kurenai’s help is unnecessary. Saying that any one of them could’ve handled Neji solo is baseless.

Kakashi Hatake - Attack Potency: Town level (Superior to Genma Shiranui and Raidou, who were able to fight on par with Jirobo and the rest of Sound Four in their Cursed Mark-II states, which are this powerful. Stronger than Part 1 Sasuke even after his power-ups, and thus should be on this level. Scales to other powerful Jōnin like Asuma and Gai).
Guy scales to above.
Asuma scales to above.
Kurenai took a kick from Itachi who scales above every version of Pre TS Sasuke (via fighting post timeskip CS1) who scales to (if not above) Neji.
Hayate is a Jonin. Databook puts Neji at Chunin level. Nuff said.
Kakashi scales to half (if not above the entire) sound 4, which Neji scales under. The rest scale to him.

Where is this coming from?

Sasuke fights the sound 4.5.

Also Lee with the Fifth Gate is comparable to Neji in speed, this was established already.

In here? if not send link please, I'll send my input.
Rock Lee is faster than Sasuke who scales to Naruto who scales to Neji. Idk where this establishment was from.

Pretty sure it was established in the Part I AP revisions that injured Lee fighting Kimimaro is an outlier.

I'm talking about raw speed. Strength, obviously, but speed isn't farfetched at all.

And we have Three Tomoe Sasuke as comparable to KN0 Naruto, not superior. Kimimaro would scale above Kidōmaru, yes, but nobody scales to CS2 Kimimaro regardless so it doesn’t mess up the scaling.

Then ≥ would be fine, which would still put them relative to if not faster than Neji.

Says who?

In my speed scaling.

Konoha Crush Sasuke = Weightless Lee <<< Fifth Gate Lee =< MHS+ = Neji = CS2 Kidomaru < Base Kimimaro < Sasuke Retrieval Gaara ≈ CS1 Kimimaro <<< CS2 Kimimaro.

I need that link for the Lee speed scaling ASAP.
Lee in base almost matched Kimimaro. CS2 = 10x.
Please. Where is base Kimimaro faster than CS2 Kidomaru? What's your backup on that?
I'm referring to Neji during the Chunin exams which you were attempting to prove is MHS+. I apologize for not making that clear. CE Neji is my base.
Damage made it clear that Neji had the reaction, not the speed, to match Lee. That is an earlier Neji.

All this does is upgrade Sasuke Retrieval Gaara to MHS+ and CS2 Kimimaro to Sub-Rel. And nobody scales to either of those characters. There are no issues here.

I take fault in not making myself clear that I'm scaling based off of CE Neji.

By the way, I’m about to go to sleep, so I won’t be able to respond to anything for a while.

Same, thanks for replying though. I apologize for not making myself clear in the initial scaling.

 

[Metalija]

Why do you guys asume that CM2 increases speed by 10x? All we know is that it buffs AP by that amount, we don't know how much it increases speed.

 

[LordTracer]

It actually doesn’t increase speed, I forgot about that.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So how many Kilotons would they scale to?

 

[Metalija]

It actually doesn’t increase speed, I forgot about that.

It does increase speed somewhat, remember CM1 Sasuke in the forest of death? We just don't know by how much it increases speed but I think its less than the increase in AP.

 

[Metalija]

About Neji. He was portrayed as superior to base Lee, so Lee developed gates in order to defeat Neji, and you can see that Neji was ******* himself when he saw Lee using gates. So I think that 5th gate Lee is superior to Neji. Also LordTracer you said that Neji clashed with KN0 Naruto, but that Naruto was only using a small amount of Kyuubis chakra, he wasn't in full KN0 like he was against Haku. So I think that Neji should scale to Low 7-C feat that forest of death Naruto performed, while full on KN0 Naruto should be 7-C.

 

[LordTracer]

Pre TS Sasuke (via fighting post timeskip CS1) who scales to (if not above) Neji

Uh, no. Based on literally what? Also are you really trying to scale Kurenai to UCHIHA ITACHI?

Hayate is a Jonin. Databook puts Neji at Chunin level

Are you actually using the databook, on its own, when it’s contradicted by the manga? Land of Waves Naruto and Land of Waves Sasuke are both easily Chūnin level already (Naruto slapped Mizuki, Sasuke fought two chūnin at the same time). Chūnin Exam Finals Sasuke is far beneath Neji. Neji is not chūnin level, his feats and scaling are far above.

able to fight on par with Jirobo and the rest of Sound Four in their Cursed Mark-II states

Hm, one feat being inconsistent with several feats prior? Sounds like one of these.

Sasuke fights the sound 4.5.

Okay, you’re straight up just being dishonest here. Sasuke was getting his ass handed to him by the Sound Four, who were in BASE. Neji held his own against CS2 Kidomaru (he is weaker, yes, but he still held his own). Konoha Crush Sasuke does not scale above CS2 Kidomaru, or even Base Kidomaru.

In here? if not send link please, I'll send my input.
Rock Lee is faster than Sasuke who scales to Naruto who scales to Neji. Idk where this establishment was from.

First of all, Naruto does not scale to Neji except in KN0. Sasuke does not scale to KN0. Second of all, I pretty clearly discussed Neji scaling to Lee with Damage, and you even acknowledge later in your post that Fifth Gate Lee is comparable to Neji in speed.

I'm talking about raw speed. Strength, obviously, but speed isn't farfetched at all.

Again, Lee fighting Kimimaro is considered an outlier because even if you removed all of this Neji stuff, it would still make Lee stronger than he was during the Chūnin Exams.

Then ≥ would be fine, which would still put them relative to if not faster than Neji.

Pretty sure I already said in the OP that Three Tomoe Sasuke would scale to MHS+, and so would KN0 Naruto based on the revisions I already had for him.

Lee in base almost matched Kimimaro. CS2 = 10x

Considered an outlier. CS2 doesn’t amp speed by ten times, it was stated to enhance power and durability by ten times.

Where is base Kimimaro faster than CS2 Kidomaru?

Check the profiles, we have Base Kimimaro above all of the Sound Four.

Damage made it clear that Neji had the reaction, not the speed, to match Lee.

He didn’t say that though? He said that we currently give Neji MHS reactions for being able to fight Fifth Gate Lee, he didn’t say that Neji didn’t have the speed to keep up with him. And considering how, again, Lee never once says that he can defeat Neji with the Fifth Gate/Reverse Lotus and only thinks that he can possibly compete, and despite the fact that he has that, he still says Neji is the strongest genin in Konoha, that pretty blatantly shows that Neji is superior to the Fifth Gate.

 

[LordTracer]

So how many Kilotons would they scale to?

Haku, KN0 Naruto and Neji scale to the same thing that jōnin currently scale to, 16.56 kilotons. CS2 Kidomaru, Base Kimimaro and Three-Tomoe Sasuke would then scale to this, then CS2 Kimimaro and CS2 Sasuke would be 165.6 kilotons. KN1 Naruto scales to this.

About Neji. He was portrayed as superior to base Lee, so Lee developed gates in order to defeat Neji, and you can see that Neji was ******* himself when he saw Lee using gates. So I think that 5th gate Lee is superior to Neji. Also LordTracer you said that Neji clashed with KN0 Naruto, but that Naruto was only using a small amount of Kyuubis chakra, he wasn't in full KN0 like he was against Haku. So I think that Neji should scale to Low 7-C feat that forest of death Naruto performed, while full on KN0 Naruto should be 7-C.

Except Lee himself said that Neji was the strongest, despite the fact that he had the Fifth Gate and Reverse Lotus ready. He even said during his fight with Gaara that he was saving the Reverse Lotus for Neji. At the absolute least, Neji is comparable to Fifth Gate Lee. And Neji isn’t 7-C purely for scaling to KN0 Naruto, he’s 7-C from his own feats and statements, so there is no reason for him to backscale to Low 7-C.

It does increase speed somewhat, remember CM1 Sasuke in the forest of death? We just don't know by how much it increases speed but I think its less than the increase in AP.

That’s true, I meant that it isn’t a 10x speed increase.

 

[LordTracer]

So, other than the Neji stuff, are there any objections to the other stuff in the OP?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So, other than the Neji stuff, are there any objections to the other stuff in the OP?

You should ask some staff members to give their opinions on this.

 

[Metalija]

So, other than the Neji stuff, are there any objections to the other stuff in the OP?

Everything else is fine. I also don't mind 7-C Neji as long as a proper scaling chain is established.

 

[LordTracer]

Everything else is fine. I also don't mind 7-C Neji as long as a proper scaling chain is established.

I’ll list a full Neji scaling chain (throughout Chūnin Exams and Sasuke Retrieval) in a moment.

You should ask some staff members to give their opinions on this.

I can just @ them in the thread and that’ll notify them, right?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I'm not really sure.

 

[LordTracer]

CS2 Kimimaro > KN1 Naruto = CS2 Sasuke = High 7-C >>> CS1 Kimimaro ≈ SA Gaara > Kimimaro > SA KN0 Naruto ≈ Three-Tomoe Sasuke >=< CS2 Kidomaru >= Sasuke Retrieval Neji > CE Finals KN0 Naruto = Chūnin Exam Finals Neji > Chūnin Exams Neji >= Fifth Gate Lee > Hiashi, Kakashi, Base Guy, Hayate and Kurenai (individually) = 7-C

No idea where exactly CS1 Sasuke would rank. Kimimaro was significantly above KN0 Naruto, who base Sasuke is comparable to, and I don’t know if CS1 would be enough to close that gap. But yeah, that’s how I see this scaling.

 

[LordTracer]

@DemonGodMitchAubin Would you mind providing your input here?

 

[Metalija]

I think that drunk Lee fighting base Kimimaro is not an outlier since Guy stated that Lee gains an enormous amp when he is drunk, so much that it took both Guy and Neji in order to restrain him in the past.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Putting Kurenai and maybe Hayato under chunnin exam genins, I could see it but Hiasi, Kakashi, and Base Guy it's a clear no. The entire scaling is wack if I were to stay and comment on it. Why would Neji be above 5th Gate Lee...that's in no way possible, he didn't even grow that much between exam and rescue mission.

 

[LordTracer]

I think that drunk Lee fighting base Kimimaro is not an outlier since Guy stated that Lee gains an enormous amp when he is drunk, so much that it took both Guy and Neji in order to restrain him in the past.

Could you find the scan (or chapter of the manga) of this? If that’s the case, then Lee can have a Drunken Fist key.

 

[LordTracer]

Putting Kurenai and maybe Hayato under chunnin exam genins, I could see it but Hiasi, Kakashi, and Base Guy it's a clear no. The entire scaling is wack if I were to stay and comment on it. Why would Neji be above 5th Gate Lee...that's in no way possible, he didn't even grow that much between exam and rescue mission.

Who said they’re being beneath the exam genin? They’re only beneath Neji, who is far beyond everyone in the Chūnin Exams except for Fifth Gate Lee and KN0 Naruto. Hiashi himself said Neji has surpassed the entire main house of the Hyuuga Clan. That includes Hiashi himself. And Lee literally said it himself that Neji is stronger than him, and he was saving the Reverse Lotus for a fight with him. The fact that you’re saying it’s “in no way possible” just makes it seem like you didn’t actually look at the scans.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I was talking about your scalling and in the way it puts Guy, Kakashi and Hiashi bellow Neji it's a clear wrong feat.

Hiashi said that but by no means did he mean including himself, yeah maybe in talent and potential but at that time Neji was clearly not stronger than Hiashi, in part 2 of Naruto, sure he is stronger but not at that period in time.

Neji is not even that strong physically, its just his figthing style that makes him very good versus other shinobi because his style ignores durablity by attacking the organs and tenketsu. That's the reason he is a danger to Lee but by no mean are they comparable in AP.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I agree that Kakashi and Guy should be scaling above all of them.

 

[Metalija]

Guy and Neji restraining Lee was anime only, in the manga Guy just says that Lee thrashed the place that they were at.