Not yet, Sparkle, not yet....(Naruto: Part I Speed Revision)

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm fine with a making a thread for this, as I disagree with how we currently handle it

It's a free country, go right ahead.

Also I don't care to change what's in there nor do I agree fully with Sparkle's changes, but I have a few gripes with the counter to the Lee argument

Oh brother.

Kimimaro's known for being incredible great at evasion, especially against predictable fighters who need to heavily rely on unpredictable movements in order to even tag him. Only time he was even touched was when he fought someone he couldn't predict the movements of.
This isn't a counter on speed. Kimimaro's a counter demon. The entire time, Lee's issue was never that he was too slow, it was that he was too damn predictable. Even with Gaara.

Literally the moment confirming that Kimimaro was surprised that he got a hit landed on him was when he said "he hit me".

Well, yeah, Kimimaro's insanely skilled and has some impressive Analytical Prediction. That's all true.
But you know what else has cracked Analytical Prediction and can easily read the movement of fast moving objects, so long as they're reasonably predictable? The Sharingan.

• Enhanced Sight (The Sharingan provides its user with an incredible clarity of perception[3]. This allows the user to easily keep track[4][5] of fast moving targets with astonishing clarity. This clarity of vision also allows the user to easily perceive and decipher[6] hand seals at great speeds[7], read lips[8], and perceive pencil movements in order to mimic them[9]. The Sharingan can also see chakra[7] as different colors, even through certain solid obstacles[10], and even perceive invisible individuals[11])

• Analytical Prediction (The Sharingan allows its user to clearly anticipate their opponent's next moves and flawlessly counter them[5])

Now, maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think Kimimaro's Prediction is quite this good. And guess what? It's not particularly great at covering big speed gaps. Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you can see or predict if you're unable to physically keep up.

So what's my point with all this? Quite simply, the point is that while Kimimaro was undoubtedly skilling up Naruto and Lee during their fights, that doesn't change the fact that he was also fast enough to do all the things he did. Evading everything like that is an act of skill, yes, but it is also an act of speed. He has to be fast enough to do that. And, again, we have a precedent for that being the case in-verse given that the best prediction ability there is bar none still requires to you be able to physically keep up with your opponent to some extent.

He never says anything about the drunken fist increasing his speed, he never shames Lee's speed either. He just has an incredible evasive factor which lets him dodge everything, which is why Lee wasn't like "oh my god you're so fast", but "it's amazing I can't land a hit cause you're so agile and you have such a unique dodging style"

He praises the Drunken Fist's unpredictability, yes, but also its speed. Whereas before, he never really made any mention of Lee's speed being any sort of issue, because he was casually evading everything he did. And, please, let's not pretend that Kimimaro has some MUI-style dodging hax or a Sharingan style precog ability lol. He's actively making predictions and dodging using skill and speed. His feats absolutely count, and the fact is that Lee's performance prior to the Drunken Fist was A S S.

He explains that the bones absorbed the impact of the blow. The bones would be much more durable and could nullify the force of said attack.
That's exactly why the fool said "impressive speed", because the Front Lotus is extremely fast.

Well, again, unless his bones automatically spawn into formation and harden to block attacks MUI-style, then he's actively reacting to Lee's FL speed and doing that himself.

Lee isn't much weaker than Kimimaro

The first scan is an off-guard hit that did zero damage. So, like.....
The second scan.....has nothing to do with Kimimaro? Like, it doesn't mention him at all, and the scan it shows is of Kimimaro dodging Lee, so I'm not too sure how that shows that Lee's physically comparable to him physically.
The third one is of Drunken Fist Lee, who I have half a mind to have scale, since we already did that for speed, but we shall see.

, we scale him much weaker than Kimimaro.

Because Kimimaro isn't CE Genin level

He shows that he's physically able to compete with him.

Again, with the Drunken Fist only, which may yield something for Lee. But, well, we'll have to see how that works consistency wise when we do the AP fix-ups soon after speed is done.

And I know we don't accept these for primarily scaling, but Lee has a relative/superior physical strength ranking to Kimimaro. Very thin support, but it still exists nonetheless.

1. I hate you.
2. Well, what do you know? Lee's speed stat is lower than Kimimaro's. Maybe I like the Databook stats after all.

 

[LordTracer]

I’ve updated the jōnin’s justifications to scale them above Neji, and Slayer will handle the other things we’ve agreed upon as soon as he can. Once that’s done, we can wrap this thread up.

 

[That_moron2]

I’ve updated the jōnin’s justifications to scale them above Neji, and Slayer will handle the other things we’ve agreed upon as soon as he can. Once that’s done, we can wrap this thread up.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Genma thought it'd take multiple jonin level characters to take the S4 down so they should probably be above Neji at least in their CS2 states. There's also this statement, though I guess you could just interpret it as referring to the battle.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Genma thought it'd take multiple jonin level characters to take the S4 down so they should probably be above Neji at least in their CS2 states.

That's.....not what they're saying there
Genma's just saying that the S4 defeated the both of them. They explain that there's an asterisk behind said "defeat", but still, they pushed two Jonin. Meaning, that to be on the safe side, they should send a few Jonin to handle the S4 for certain with minimal risk. It has nothing to do with Neji or any of the other Retrieval Squad members.
Also, Neji's an 8-A character, the CS2 Sound 4 are 7-C, literally dozens of times more powerful than him, so yeah....

There's also this statement, though I guess you could just interpret it as referring to the battle.

We could, because it is

 

[KingTempest]

Well, yeah, Kimimaro's insanely skilled and has some impressive Analytical Prediction. That's all true.
But you know what else has cracked Analytical Prediction and can easily read the movement of fast moving objects, so long as they're reasonably predictable? The Sharingan.

Now, maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think Kimimaro's Prediction is quite this good. And guess what? It's not particularly great at covering big speed gaps. Because, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you can see or predict if you're unable to physically keep up.

So what's my point with all this? Quite simply, the point is that while Kimimaro was undoubtedly skilling up Naruto and Lee during their fights, that doesn't change the fact that he was also fast enough to do all the things he did. Evading everything like that is an act of skill, yes, but it is also an act of speed. He has to be fast enough to do that. And, again, we have a precedent for that being the case in-verse given that the best prediction ability there is bar none still requires to you be able to physically keep up with your opponent to some extent.

No disrespect, but this is useless.
Cause the point isn't to not scale Kimimaro to Lee, but to scale Lee to Kimimaro

Lee badly blitzing somebody far slower than him with analytical prediction isn't a counter to Kimimaro having analytical prediction means Lee can't scale to him in speed

The argument I'm making is "Lee couldn't tag Kimimaro because Kimimaro has analytical prediction and not because he's faster", not "Kimimaro doesn't scale to Lee because he only dodged using Analytical Prediction"

He praises the Drunken Fist's unpredictability, yes, but also its speed. Whereas before, he never really made any mention of Lee's speed being any sort of issue, because he was casually evading everything he did. And, please, let's not pretend that Kimimaro has some MUI-style dodging hax or a Sharingan style precog ability lol. He's actively making predictions and dodging using skill and speed. His feats absolutely count, and the fact is that Lee's performance prior to the Drunken Fist was A S S.

Lee sucked because although in the same ballpark of speed, he was a predictable loser who couldn't touch him.
What did he do? He became unpredictable.
That's really it.

Also if we really give an increase in stats due to a regular person being drunk then I swear imma cry.

Lee also scales to his drunken form, as he could quickly react to the bones and throw up a guard before they tagged him in close distance, same bones that managed to extend and intercept him while drunk, so none of that really works here.

Well, again, unless his bones automatically spawn into formation and harden to block attacks MUI-style, then he's actively reacting to Lee's FL speed and doing that himself.

You do realize that you can kinda track somebody faster than you if they're predictable you know that right?
Including this situation here.

That's the whole concept with the chidori, super quick beeline attack that can be dodged if enough time and distance is given.
Kimimaro's bones had to move a tiny distance (maybe like a third of a meter) while Lee moved... dozens to hundreds of that.

Same way Sasuke can dodge a V1 cloak Bee's fastest move when Base Bee is on his level of speed

Because Kimimaro isn't CE Genin level

Base Lee as of the Chunin Exams vastly outscaled... every single genin in the chunin exams, so I don't know what this point proves

 

[BlastX]

"When we do AP-fix ups soon after Speed is done"

Naruto's CRTs are never over aren't they?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's.....not what they're saying there
Genma's just saying that the S4 defeated the both of them. They explain that there's an asterisk behind said "defeat", but still, they pushed two Jonin. Meaning, that to be on the safe side, they should send a few Jonin to handle the S4 for certain with minimal risk. It has nothing to do with Neji or any of the other Retrieval Squad members.
Also, Neji's an 8-A character, the CS2 Sound 4 are 7-C, literally dozens of times more powerful than him, so yeah....

If it takes multiple jonin to be sure to take them down, they should absolutely be above chunin level,

The discussion is speed

We could, because it is

The wording of it suggests they're jonin level tho grr

 

[SlendVeny]

Genma thought it'd take multiple jonin level characters to take the S4 down so they should probably be above Neji at least in their CS2 states.

They said:
-If it was Sasuke in the barrel, a team of 4 Genin won't beat them.
-They lost a 2v4 when weakened and out of chakra.
-Sending in a group of Jonin would provide backup.

There's also this statement, though I guess you could just interpret it as referring to the battle.

There are 5 Sound Shinobi in that picture, and if it doesn't refer to that battle, we know which one it means.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

No disrespect, but this is useless.
Cause the point isn't to not scale Kimimaro to Lee, but to scale Lee to Kimimaro

Lee badly blitzing somebody far slower than him with analytical prediction isn't a counter to Kimimaro having analytical prediction means Lee can't scale to him in speed

The argument I'm making is "Lee couldn't tag Kimimaro because Kimimaro has analytical prediction and not because he's faster", not "Kimimaro doesn't scale to Lee because he only dodged using Analytical Prediction"

Crazy how I never said Lee can't scale to him in speed because of that.
I originally said Kimimaro outclassed Lee in speed because Lee never managed to touch him.
You tried to chalk that up to Analytical Prediction rather than speed.
I explained to you with my response that Analytical Prediction in Naruto, no matter how insane it is, is still limited by physical abilities. Meaning you need to physically keep up with your opponent, at least to some extent. This is why I brought up the most extreme example of AP in the verse, that being the Sharingan. Not because it's applicable to Lee and Kimimaro's situation, but to prove a point.

Anyway, my actual reasoning for why I don't think Lee scales is outlined in my response to Sparkle.
You're still left with the same issue. Analytical Prediction or not, Lee getting outclassed and constantly evaded isn't a feat for Lee. It's a feat for Kimimaro. It doesn't show Lee keeping up with Kimimaro, it shows Kimimaro keeping up with Lee. You see the issue there?

Lee sucked because although in the same ballpark of speed, he was a predictable loser who couldn't touch him.
What did he do? He became unpredictable.
That's really it.

Him being in the same ballpark of speed is something I have yet to see a good argument for.
And, again, unpredictability and speed.

Also if we really give an increase in stats due to a regular person being drunk then I swear imma cry.

"regular person"
Okay.

Lee also scales to his drunken form, as he could quickly react to the bones and throw up a guard before they tagged him in close distance, same bones that managed to extend and intercept him while drunk, so none of that really works here.

1. This is.....still Drunken Fist Lee.
2. His arms were already up when the bones came out.

You do realize that you can kinda track somebody faster than you if they're predictable you know that right?
Including this situation here.

That's the whole concept with the chidori, super quick beeline attack that can be dodged if enough time and distance is given.
Kimimaro's bones had to move a tiny distance (maybe like a third of a meter) while Lee moved... dozens to hundreds of that.

Same way Sasuke can dodge a V1 cloak Bee's fastest move when Base Bee is on his level of speed

I am well aware. It doesn't change the fact that Lee, with a 5x amp, still failed to overwhelm Kimimaro. There's no feat for Lee there. Kimimaro calls him fast, which is fine since
A) Vastly superior movement speed.
B) They scale to the same value.
So it makes sense. But otherwise, there's nothing there that helps your argument that base Lee is consistently Kimimaro level.

Base Lee as of the Chunin Exams vastly outscaled... every single genin in the chunin exams, so I don't know what this point proves

In base? Yeah, no. Like, I don't know how you can unironically make that claim.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

"When we do AP-fix ups soon after Speed is done"

Naruto's CRTs are never over aren't they?

It's mostly going to be a stat/value change due to the UES stuff, but there will also be a few scaling changes here and there. But the descriptions and justifications will largely remain the same. It'll also only affect the tier 8 and 7 characters pretty much.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

However, the issue still kinda remains because sounds waves mixed in with air pressure blasts isn't the same as pure sound waves, I don't think. More calc savvy people can chime in, but I'm pretty sure the air mixed in would still affect things.

You can't eat your cake and have it. It saying "100% air and 0% sound" means that he can control when sound is and isn't used.

The air is used to damage them while the sound is used to mess up their ears. For it to utilize full power, it would be entirely air pressure.

This is why we see air being blasted out, not sound.

He has the capability to use sound but sound wasn't used in the instance, which is why it was all air, unless you're implying he was holding back on Sasuke

I'm pretty sure Air Pressure of that magnitude would be far faster than Mach 1 just by the law of conservation of energy. The air is pressurized and vectored towards a target, I'm pretty sure there was a method to calculate how fast air pressure would be based on it's magnitude.

To calculate the speed of the air coming out of the cannon, we can use Bernoulli’s equation, which relates the pressure, velocity, and height of a fluid. In this case, the fluid would be air.

One common approach to calculate the air speed in fluid dynamics is using the following formula:
V = sqrt((2 * (P_Total - P_Static)) /ρ)
Where:

• V is the air speed,
• PTotal is the total pressure measured by a pilot tube (a pressure measurement instrument used to measure fluid flow velocity),
• PStatic is the total static local atmospheric pressure,
• ρ is the density of air.

In this scenario, if we consider PTotal as 20 PSI (which is approximately 137895.144127 Pa), and PStatic as the standard atmospheric pressure (101325 Pa), and ρ as the density of air (approximately 1.225 kg/m³), we can substitute these values into the formula to calculate the air speed.

• Speed: sqrt((2 * (137895.144127 - 101325)) /1.225) = 244.35m/s (Mach 0.73)

This is assuming the cannon is only 20 PSI (regular explosion shockwave value), when it's actually far higher. Since we can use the fact it can break through rock, we can use the average rock strength here. 25 MPa to 50 MPa, or an average of 37.5 MPa or 3.75e+7 Pa.

• Speed: sqrt((2 * 3.75e+7 - 101325)) /1.225) = 7064.82m/s (Mach 20)

If you think this value is problematic, I recommend just using the Mach 1 alternative again. (Or just use the Mach 0.73 calc since it assumes a standard value for pressure)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Honestly, probably best to make a calc group thread about that, rather than clog this one up, plus this just isn’t the thread to evaluate calcs. Cuz while everything you said checks out, I can see CGM taking issues with either A) assuming a semi-arbitrary PTotal or B) using the feat of it destroying rock as means to get PTotal and then calc speed. I’m not bringing up any issues with the two so don’t respond to me like you’re defending your calc, I don’t care. I’m merely saying “nice, but this isn’t the thread for it, a CGT is, and here are some things to prep for if you want to argue it”.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, I also think this belongs in a CGT as well. And its results, whatever they may be, won't really hold this thread up since the resulting calc would literally only affect one person, so we can just adjust his rating later if need be.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They said:
-If it was Sasuke in the barrel, a team of 4 Genin won't beat them.
-They lost a 2v4 when weakened and out of chakra.
-Sending in a group of Jonin would provide backup.

...which is what I said? Like I'm not seeing how paraphrasing what's said helps the counterargument

There are 5 Sound Shinobi in that picture, and if it doesn't refer to that battle, we know which one it means.

It's not singling out Kimimaro, it's saying the Sound Ninja in general

 

[SlendVeny]

...which is what I said? Like I'm not seeing how paraphrasing what's said helps the counterargument

They didn't say they needed Jonin, or that Jonin would have any trouble.

 

[Arkenis]

Weren't the jonin they did beat low on chakra anyway?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Weren't the jonin they did beat low on chakra anyway?

Yeah. They were low on chakra, exhausted, and outnumbered.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They didn't say they needed Jonin, or that Jonin would have any trouble.

Genma said yeah we were nerfed but still look what they did to us jonin. We should send a team of FP jonin to help take those guys on. In other words, they're clearly above chunin level, and a non nerfed jonin wouldn't just wipe them out

 

[KingTempest]

Tayuya on her own bodied Raido, so it's not cause they were nerfed. They're still able to fight Jonin

 

[SlendVeny]

Genma said yeah we were nerfed but still look what they did to us jonin. We should send a team of FP jonin to help take those guys on. In other words, they're clearly above chunin level, and a non nerfed jonin wouldn't just wipe them out

Yes, one Jonin would not wipe all 5 of the Sound 4 at once.

 

[SlendVeny]

Tayuya on her own bodied Raido, so it's not cause they were nerfed. They're still able to fight Jonin

I genuinely don't believe you. Wdym "bodied?" They were all exhausted.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yes, one Jonin would not wipe all 5 of the Sound 4 at once.

Genma didn't even see Kimimaro. So one FP jonin, a chunin, and a team of genin couldn't handily take down the Sound 4.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Uh, well, I've made the agreed upon changes.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

At least close to resting
Btw I noticed the second last imgur for Lee is broken
I swear I ain't doing this on purpose

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

All of Lee's links are working for me.

 

[LordTracer]

Btw I noticed the second last imgur for Lee is broken

It works fine for me, so that might just be a problem on your end.

Uh, well, I've made the agreed upon changes.

Since everything is done, we can start applying the changes.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Welp it's working for me now too so ig it was an issue at my end

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

 

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[BlastX]

I'm guessing Part II is gonna take a while to happen.

 

[Damage3245]

I know I'm a bit late to all this so feel free to disregard this if it the thread is wrapping up but does anyone else think that rank-based scaling is a bit sketchy here?

As a jōnin, he should be superior to [[Neji Hyūga]], who is stated to be [ chūnin level].

So Genin-level Neji has this said for him:

Not only his abilities are balanced, but as expected from him also their score is high. He's already at the chunin's level.

So Neji is clearly a stand-out from the other Genin as he's got Massively Hypersonic combat speed while they're averaging at around Subsonic+ level.

But the thing is that a fair number of those Genins could have been labelled Chunin as a result of the Chunin Exams. They must definitely have been at the "Chunin's level" to even make it through the Chunin Exam.

Yet obviously they wouldn't all scale to Neji's speed just because he's a Chunin level and they would've been promoted to Chunin.

So not all Chunin are inherently superior in speed to all Genin given that Neji was Massively Hypersonic level while we had other Chunin-level characters at Subsonic+.

So why exactly are all Jonin-level characters being assumed to be superior in speed to all Chunin-level characters (including Neji).

I haven't really been following the thread so perhaps this has been addressed.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Chunin level is a range that varies, but is below jonin level

 

[Damage3245]

Chunin level is a range that varies, but is below jonin level

Based on what exactly? Because if it can range so that some Chunin are below some Genin in certain stats, then it seems possible for the same to be true of some Jonin varying below some Chunin in certain stats.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I know I'm a bit late to all this so feel free to disregard this if it the thread is wrapping up but does anyone else think that rank-based scaling is a bit sketchy here?



So Genin-level Neji has this said for him:



So Neji is clearly a stand-out from the other Genin as he's got Massively Hypersonic combat speed while they're averaging at around Subsonic+ level.

But the thing is that a fair number of those Genins could have been labelled Chunin as a result of the Chunin Exams. They must definitely have been at the "Chunin's level" to even make it through the Chunin Exam.

Yet obviously they wouldn't all scale to Neji's speed just because he's a Chunin level and they would've been promoted to Chunin.

So not all Chunin are inherently superior in speed to all Genin given that Neji was Massively Hypersonic level while we had other Chunin-level characters at Subsonic+.

So why exactly are all Jonin-level characters being assumed to be superior in speed to all Chunin-level characters (including Neji).

I haven't really been following the thread so perhaps this has been addressed.

I think you're correct regarding the Chunin stuff for sure.
For example, you had Academy Naruto beating Mizuki, a Chunin. You also had freshly graduated Sasuke stomping the Demon Brothers, also Chunin.

But I think that's probably because being a Chunin isn't necessarily about combat power, and rather about character and decision making ability.

Being a Jonin on the other hand is about ability. Although, you might have a point with Tokubetsu Jonin, since they're essentially Chunin with a single Jonin-level specialty.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Based on what exactly? Because if it can range so that some Chunin are below some Genin in certain stats, then it seems possible for the same to be true of some Jonin varying below some Chunin in certain stats.

Chunin can be below Genin, but that just means the Genin are Chunin level. Chunin level is not about actual rank at all and just the abilities of the ninja. In other words, rank is a minimum (you need to at least be a certain level to quality for that rank) and not a maximum (since if you don't take the test like P2 Naruto, you can be Kage level and still be a Genin), while rank level is both a minimum and a maximum, so Neji not being jonin level should mean his stats are below that threshold.

 

[SlendVeny]

Genma didn't even see Kimimaro. So one FP jonin, a chunin, and a team of genin couldn't handily take down the Sound 4.

I didn't mention Kimimaro. There are 5 Sound 4 members.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

? Are you talking about Ukon?

 

[KingTempest]

I genuinely don't believe you. Wdym "bodied?" They were all exhausted.

Yall really don't read Naruto huh

 

[KingTempest]

Being a Jonin on the other hand is about ability. Although, you might have a point with Tokubetsu Jonin, since they're essentially Chunin with a single Jonin-level specialty.

Jonin level is barely about ability either. Genin Obito was on the level of Jonin Kakashi. It's just even higher leadership